Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Wet Film

This is topic Wet Film in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-27-2005, 08:54 AM:

Hey guys. Well, it was raining pretty bad here last night and I happen to have no glass on my windows for screens 2 and 3. Also the glass on screen 1 is broken as well. So, I ran Screen 2 fine last night till the 2nd show. It was wet. The platter system however(Potts 5 deck) seperated the layers fine. The show ran through okay.

On screen 1, (Speco LP-270), the film wouldn't pull through the brain without pulling like 10 layers with it. I had to end up cancelling the 2nd show. Is the film ruined? How can I fix this problem so I can go on screen tonight? Thanks

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-27-2005, 09:54 AM:

If the water damage is so bad as to have compromised the binder layer and caused the emulsion to start lifting (or sticking to the base of the winding underneath), then - to use a highly obscure archivists' technical term - that print is buggered.

The usual treatment for an archival element which has been affected by serious water contamination is ultrasonic cleaning, rewashing and drying (and in the case of acetate elements, glass wheel polishing), but the cost of doing that for a release print isn't usually worth it.

If the contamination is light, you could try winding the print between vertical heads and passing it through a lint-free (e.g. Selvyt) cloth, slowly and twice. Use a dry cloth the first time, and then use a fresh cloth with one or two squirts of Filmguard for the second.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-27-2005, 01:22 PM:

Post Removed

[ 05-08-2005, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: Richard Greco ]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-27-2005, 01:37 PM:

BABY POWDER?!?!?! [Eek!]

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-27-2005, 01:39 PM:

Post Removed

[ 05-08-2005, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Richard Greco ]

Posted by Kris Dirix (Member # 3012) on 04-27-2005, 01:50 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood was the last to post
baby powder

Why not flour ??? Your GM has strange ideas.

You better tell him to come with a set of new windows. (Real windows, not he Microsoft stuff..... [puke]

)

However the edge of your copy will be dry by now and the emulsion will stick to the back of the winding underneath, so I think it is lost now [Frown]

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-27-2005, 01:51 PM:

Post removed

[ 05-08-2005, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Richard Greco ]

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 04-27-2005, 02:02 PM:

I know the feeling Richard. It's hard when you work in those little theaters owned by people who don't get it. They have an idea but they don't know how to execute it and wont trust the people who can.

I'd say the print's ruined and you'd better come up with something to cover that glass. That's rediculous. I'd have the hole covered with a tarp and cancel all the shows until it's fixed. Too much sh*t can get in there even when it's not raining.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 04-27-2005, 02:08 PM:

If it were me, I would take the film off the platter by winding onto 6000' reels. This way, any stuck together sections would be pulled apart without getting sucked into the brain. I would then re-load it on to the platter, lightly coating it with Film-Guard using a lint free cloth, so that it does not re-stick together.

Powdering the print would be a BIG mistake.

/Mitchell

Posted by Kris Dirix (Member # 3012) on 04-27-2005, 02:13 PM:

Sorry Richard no offence, Leo is right, the only way to handel wet film is ultrasonic cleaning or re wash (=best).

I have seen many wet reels come out of the developing machine and all my bosses and ex-bosses had problems wit that, but they found no solution.

I remember me an old negative, recorded in Lier, during the bombing of the local Fortress by the Germans in the early days of WWI (1914)after the fortress was fallen, the cineast wrapped it in some kind of "waxed" cotton sheets (20 cm thick) and buried it. The reel was found in 1982 and was brought to our lab, after developing, the film was not dry enough, so my chief took two hear dryers and dryed the film on a Steinbeck table.

(The job took one hour for approximately 350 feet of film)

And again, no offence.

[beer]

Chears

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 04-27-2005, 02:18 PM:

Caution: blow drying an entire feature may cause drowsiness.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-27-2005, 03:56 PM:

Kris: given that your 1914 film would have been nitrate, I hope those hairdryers were on the 'cool' setting! [Eek!]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-27-2005, 04:29 PM:

Do a search for water damage. If you don't unroll the film, FilmGuard can almost always save it. Once you unroll it (by projecting or breaking down to reels), all is lost. I have explained the procedure before.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 04-27-2005, 05:18 PM:

Richard, the owner of your drive-in is worth mucho dinero...It is strange that a replacement was not ordered...maybe the staff is afraid of being fired? Your projector will love the talcum powder [uhoh]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-27-2005, 08:12 PM:

NEVER use baby powder (talcum)!

FilmGuard has the most likelihood of saving this bad situation. I'd suggest Brad's method first, then slowing winding off the film and applying additional FilmGuard to keep the damp film from sticking together, and to provide lots of lubrication in the projector gate.

Don't try to dry the wet film while it is wound in a roll or on the platter --- the wet emulsion will dry like glue, and "block" or delaminate. You can try using warm air to help dry the film as is is "free hung".

Your drive-in should take responsibility for the damage, and inform the distributor of the problem and get a replacement print once you fix the leaks and dry everything out.

Posted by Larry Myers (Member # 738) on 04-27-2005, 09:45 PM:

Hi

Talcum powder is not completely off the wall when it comes to film. It's used in most aerial recon films to keep the film from sticking together as a result of a tight rap.

Larry

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 04-27-2005, 10:31 PM:

Definitely use some FG if you have it as described by Brad and others, the same thing happened to us twice with a leaky in the ventilation, one case the water was there for quite some hours and the other case maybe 10 minutes or so, and in both cases FG sprayed all along the edges saved the day.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-28-2005, 12:11 AM:

Well, I ran it through today. I seperated the layers and threaded up. Once I got the film going, It ran rather smoothly. I think that the head got wet since it was threaded early yesterday and wasn't ran till like 2 hrs later.

Posted by Don Anderson (Member # 397) on 04-28-2005, 12:55 AM:

28 years in the film processing industry, and I have NEVER heard of anyone using baby powder or talc to dry film. The only other weird use for it was a short lived product to spray in your hair to avoid washing it. Remember that from the late 70s-early 80s??? [Big Grin]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-28-2005, 03:24 AM:

..yet, I've heard, in the past, of many operators using baby powder when doing splices, especially the white gooey opaque variety...to get rid of the stickiness of that gooey splice...but OH!...what a "snow job" on the screen when the joins come together....

Richard, now is the good time to do either of two things: Go buy you a good chunck of visquine (plastic sheet stuff) to cover your prints with, or tell that SOB owner of yours to invest into some fitted platter covers that you can get from your booth supplier, so this accident doesn't come across again. Any form of platter covers is an absolute must for drive-ins. That should be an automatic policy for drive-in owners..

Seems like you can find another theatre to go work at around there....

-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-28-2005, 08:37 AM:

I wouldn't recommend a regular platter cover for Richard. Those cloth ones if wet can make more of a mess on a print. The drop cloth/visquine stuff is the best solution, plus it's really cheap.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-28-2005, 10:52 AM:

quote: Larry Myers
Talcum powder is not completely off the wall when it comes to film. It's used in most aerial recon films to keep the film from sticking together as a result of a tight rap.

In that application, the talc is acting as a "matte" to help alleviate ferrotyping. Kodak actually coats very tiny (about 1 micrometer) polymeric matte particles on some film products.

But talc will NOT fix a wet film problem, and will just stick to wet film as a gooey debris.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-28-2005, 03:51 PM:

I know you have nice weather in Florida but it's BOUND to rain in the window(s) again and MORE damage will occur.

The first time it happens it could be considered an unfortunate accident. After that it's NEGLIGENCE! Basically, this puts you "On Notice" that such things can happen and WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

So... Why doesn't somebody go get a chunk of plywood, a couple of hinges, a handfull of screws and make a flap to cover the port hole when the place is closed?

Cripes! There's probably a piece of plywood lying around out back, somewhere! Just go get that old, rusty saw down from the back of the tool shed and whack off a chunk of it big enough to cover the hole!

With ten minutes worth of work you have assured that this problem will never happen again or, at least, you have done everything you could to prevent it.

It's something so easy that even RICHARD can do it! [Big Grin]

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 04-28-2005, 06:23 PM:

The Drive-Ins I worked at (many years ago) had shutters on the ports which were closed at the end of the night.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 04-29-2005, 06:25 AM:

All of the ports of our Drive-In theatres had metal "eyelids". These were 3 sided structures which protruded toward the screens and were large enough to keep rain out of the ports even if the glass was removed.
KEN

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-29-2005, 04:23 PM:

Kinda dumb for a drive-in in FLA not having port hole doors being the wet weather that state can get at times....

Who in their right mind (if they have any..) not think of this when this place was built? I thought that port hole covers was a mandatory thing for drive-ins, in the ones that I've seen. That's an absolutely no-brainer operation in not having port hole covers. No wonder of the dust problem as well (can you think how the machinery is without port glass and wind blowing dust and dirt around grinding around inside the machinery?)

- better get those prints covered up pronto...!

...plus, not fixing that broken window pane as well...

It there any upper management/owner intelligence located that this drive-in?

That's a pretty sad place.... - Monte

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-30-2005, 02:22 AM:

Well, I have addressed the problems and new glass is being ordered for the broken one. The 2 portholes without glass will be fitted with non reflective glass. There are covers on the portholes, the are just used at nighttime at closing.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-01-2005, 02:42 AM:

Now, I have to ask this question: how big are the portholes and how did rain get inside the booth to get a print wet. Was it windy as well and blowing into the portholes to throw rain in as well, or is there a big pane window close to the platter that was opened to get a print wet.

...sorry, can't perceive how a print got wet if the platter could be that far enough away from an open window/opening...

thx_monte

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 05-08-2005, 04:46 AM:

Ok, I need to modify my earlier question...

If a print got a little wet the night before, and the next day before it is run, can one use a little baby powder to ease the film through the brain? I don't think I was clear enough. The film DID dry.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-08-2005, 09:05 AM:

Nope, no baby powder on film, ever.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-08-2005, 04:42 PM:

quote: John Pytlak
But talc will NOT fix a wet film problem, and will just stick to wet film as a gooey debris.

..John P. posted this up earlier in this thread...

..wanna have a "cookie dough" mess with baby powder and water mixed together on your prints?

-Monte

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-09-2005, 12:42 PM:

If a short section of film gets damp, you can hang it out in the air to air dry, being careful not to let the wet film touch a dirty surface or get airborne dirt on it. Wet emulsion is very soft and sticky.

NEVER put talcum powder or other particulate matter onto a print, especially one that is wet. [Eek!]