Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 16mm Eiki 2000A -- motor not working

This is topic 16mm Eiki 2000A -- motor not working in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Marc Syp (Member # 1228) on 05-16-2005, 10:32 AM:

Hi all. A while back you guys helped me fix a problem with this projector. I got it working nicely again and then it sat for a year. Now it has a new problem. The motor and blower will not run. There is a buzzing sound coming from the motor when it is turned on.

Everything else seems to be working properly. That is, the optical light comes on and there is an audio signal coming from the outputs. Mechanically everything else checks out from what I can see. I checked all the fuses I could find (2 of them) and they were fine.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Marc

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-16-2005, 11:52 AM:

The motor has an oval capacitor attached to it. These are known for going bad and causing the problem that you are having.

Posted by Marc Syp (Member # 1228) on 05-16-2005, 12:28 PM:

I assume you're talking about the shrink-wrapped doohickey that's sitting on top of the motor? It reads: MP, 270 VACW, 7MF, 770323, Nidec. Is there an easy way to test and replace it?

Thanks,
Marc

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-16-2005, 01:48 PM:

KMR Electronics is the best source for Eiki parts and might have the exact replacement (they're on the web), but what you've got there is a 270 volt 7 microfarad cap and anything with at least that voltage and close to that capacitance should work. Try Mouser Electronics or even Grainger--they have tons of fractional horsepower motors and accessories. You may have to rube up a mounting bracket, but as long as you keep everything insulated placement shouldn't be critical.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-25-2008, 12:29 PM:

It has been 1196 days since the last post.

Posted by Marc Syp (Member # 1228) on 08-25-2008, 12:29 PM:

Could someone help me identify a capacitor that will work as a replacement? I don't know too much about electronics and I'm afraid I will buy the wrong one. There are many different types of capacitors (Aluminum Electrolytic, Aluminum Organic, Ceramic, Mica, Film, Feed-Thru, etc) and I'm not sure where to start.

I do have someone that can help me do the actual replacement, but I'd like your advice on the equipment.

Thank you!

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-26-2008, 06:49 PM:

Call Grainger and tell the salesman that you want a 7 microfared (MFD) 270 volt oval motor-start capacitor. You can go higher with the voltage on the cap. My Eiki has a 370v capacitor on it right now. Working perfectly.

BTW, DONT disconnect any wires without making a detailed diagram of what you are disconnecting. I wont even tell you how I discovered this tip. [Razz]

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 05-08-2013, 12:12 AM:

It has been 1715 days since the last post.

Posted by Marc Syp (Member # 1228) on 05-08-2013, 12:12 AM:

So... imagine this... Way back when, I asked you guys for advice on what I might to to get the old girl working again. People supposed it was the motor start capacitor, so I went out and bought a replacement from Grainger, as suggested on this thread. But then I got distracted and never did the replacement.

Nearly 5 years later, I finally took out the old Eiki and attempted the job. Got the old capacitor off and hooked up the new one for a test, hoping for that glorious beast to fire right up -- alas, the new motor start capacitor made no difference whatsoever.

Still the same buzzing sound, with no turnover from the motor whatsoever. A fellow film projector buff (but not a tech) noticed that the relay was not firing, and that if you tug on the belt, the motor wants to keep going, but just can't after a few revolutions. The buzzing sound intensified after playing around with it a bit.

We looked for all of the fuses, couldn't find any bad ones. The changeover mechanics don't seem to be interfering with the motor either.

Any ideas on what to check next?

I'm wanting to get this pair up and running the way they did before I put them in storage... also, failing that -- I'm in Seattle... if you know of anyone I could take it to for a diagnosis, I would be grateful.

Thanks,
Marc

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-08-2013, 02:27 AM:

Have you checked the motor voltage coming off the power supply? And is the motor one that has brushes, and if so are the brushes OK?

The only 16mm expert I know of close to Seattle is Alain LeTourneau, based in Portland.

Posted by Marc Syp (Member # 1228) on 05-08-2013, 05:42 PM:

Nope, I haven't done either of those things. Is it important where I check the voltage in the circuit? I'm not super confident with my electronics skills, so I don't want to electrify myself on the transformer by accident.

My projector enthusiast friend also suggested checking the brushes, but I wouldn't know what to look for or how to replace them if they were bad... hmm....

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-09-2013, 03:00 AM:

From the symptom you describe, I can only think of four possible causes.

1 - Bad motor capacitor (ruled out, as you've replaced it)
2 - Motor is not receiving the correct power supply
3 - Motor brushes are worn
4 - Seized bearing

If a fuse were blown, you wouldn't be hearing the buzzing sound.

The power supply (transformer) unit in most Eikis is located on top of the amplifier module, towards the front, near the back (non operating side) cover. On most models, it takes a mains power supply (120 volts AC) in and will have five outputs:

Motor - passes straight through (i.e. the motor uses the AC mains voltage, too)
Amplifier module - 40 volts DC.
Lamp in dim/economy mode - 22 volts DC
Lamp in full blast mode - 24 volts DC
Exciter and threading lamps - 8 volts DC

There are slight variations for different models (for example, if yours is a xenon-lit machine, the rectifier for the power supply will be totally separate). I don't recognise your model number and there isn't a service manual for it in the F-T warehouse, and so to a certain extent this is guesswork.

If you can find a service manual anywhere online, though, my first step would be to check all the power supply outputs with a multimeter to verify that this unit is working properly. If the power supply unit is failing, I'm guessing that it could be creating some resistance or something that's stopping the motor from getting the power it needs.

Note: you will need to do this test with live, mains power going through the machine and the back cover open. Unless you're confident in managing the safety aspects of that, I'd suggest enlisting the help of a qualified electrician.

Motor brushes don't look like toothbrushes or pastry brushes: they're solid pieces of carbon fibre that the motor shaft passes in contact with ('brushes' against) as it rotates. An electrical current passes through them, and so as they erode over time, the contact becomes weaker and the motor eventually starts to fail. Here is a video of someone replacing the brushes on a power shower motor - the principle will be the same on your Eiki.

The problem is that Eikis were designed to be of a modular construction, for easy servicing in the field. So if you're the a/v tech in a high school in the middle of nowhere (which is where these machines were designed to be sold to) and your motor goes bad, you simply removed the motor module (three screws and a molex connector), packaged it up, sent it to Eiki and received a replacement a few days later. Repair down to component level happened at base. However, in this case, if the brushes turn out to be the culrprit, you're going to have to disassemble the motor module to get them out, because Eiki stopped offering spares and support for their 16mm projectors almost two decades ago.

I've just looked in the service manual for the N series portables (which is what my two Eikis are), and they don't even give you a part number for the motor brushes. If that is the problem, you're looking at trying to find a new motor module from somewhere, unless you can get the brushes out and establish that they are of a size and spec that is still being made for motors used in other applications. It would certainly be worth taking the worn ones to an electrical parts supplier, or looking online, if you do get them out. I've never had this problem with any Eiki that I've owned or fixed for other people, and so honestly can't say if new brushes that would work are readily available.

As for bearing(s), I doubt it: my suspicion is that the shaft would not be rotating at all if it had seized.

Edit/afterthought: if you remove the belt linking the motor to the camtank module, does the motor run freely? If it does, is the camtank very stiff to turn over using the inching knob? If so, the culprit is a corroded spring in the camtank module. I encountered this in one machine that had been in storage for years - it had rusted almost solid, causing tremendous resistance against the motor. I tried something like 50 different types of spring in an attempt to find a replacement that worked, but couldn't. In the end I gave up and Ebayed the thing as for spares or repair.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-09-2013, 09:19 AM:

Marc could also post over on 16mmfilmtalk. There are former Eiki service techs/dealers who follow that forum and volunteer help.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 05-09-2013, 10:57 AM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
they don't even give you a part number for the motor brushes

I worked at an authorized Bell & Howell/Eiki repair depot in the 1980's.
I never had to completely disassemble/repair an Eiki motor, but I don't
seem to recall them as having brushes. I think they were 1/20hp
synchronous induction motors.

But. . . it's been over 20years since I looked at one, so my memory could be wrong.

The only time I ever had a "motor problem" with an Eiki, it turned out
to be both a bad motor start capacitor and an open 'thermal switch'
which was located inside the motor case. (I think the capacitor
failed, causing the start winding of the motor to overheat & trip the
thermal switch, which should have re-set itself when the motor cooled
down, but it didn't)

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-09-2013, 11:03 AM:

All of mine have been induction motors, but I've never had a 2000. I did have an ex-1500, however, and I believe it was induction, too, and an earlier model than the 2000.

Posted by Marc Syp (Member # 1228) on 05-09-2013, 05:00 PM:

Interesting... thanks for all the tips, guys. If I were to take the motor apart would it be obvious how to check and reset the thermal switch? That seems like something I could tackle.

Marc

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-09-2013, 05:44 PM:

All the 2000A's had the induction motor. Most motors have an automatic reset on them.

I thought of something else... These motors used sealed ball bearings. I have opened up at least 2 Eiki motors and found the bearing were seizing on their shafts.

I replaced the bearings with a couple that I picked up locally at a bearing supply shop. Both motors are still running just fine.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-10-2013, 01:51 AM:

Thanks folks. I've never had to open the outer casing of an Eiki motor module, for the simple reason that I've never had one go bad on me. If it is an induction motor, that presumably leaves the bearing or resistance caused by a bad camtank module (easily checkable by removing the belt and seeing if the motor runs freely). The bearings on the sound drum/flywheel shaft do have a habit of seizing up, so I guess that might be it. If it was the thermal switch, surely it would be either on or off, running normally or totally dead, not running but with resistance?