This is topic Manufacturers of new 35/70mm Projectors in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 05-26-2005, 05:21 PM:
 
Hello fellow techers!

Do you know of any manufacturers (Kinoton, Strong, Christie, etc.) that are currently making new 35/70mm projectors?

I've searched their websites and the archieves but can't find anything for the life of me!

*I've still been searching, and while some say that they have 70mm projectors, there's no additional information for them. I do know of the VIC 8 35/70mm prpjector, but I'm looking for other ones too.
 

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Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 05-26-2005, 05:44 PM:
 
Well, the Kinoton's projector wasn't hard to find.

Kinoton e-projectors
 

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Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 05-26-2005, 05:47 PM:
 
Sorry, specifically I meant a console mount version.
 

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Posted by Kris Brunton (Member # 432) on 05-26-2005, 05:57 PM:
 
Most manufacturers offer there projectors as a console mount or pedestal mount. The Simplex PR3570 or the Century JJ is available from Ballantyne as a console mount.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-26-2005, 06:17 PM:
 
Kinoton does not normally ever do console mount persay...the PK-60 being the notable exception for the American market.

The FP40 and FP-50 models are console-like though in that the projector is attached to the console. The console portion being an SK-50. I don't know if they ever offered the SK-50 for mounting an American style projector like a Simplex....but I've digressed far enough.

The Kinoton FP-75E is their current offering in a "cinema" grade projector. Kinoton has never, to the best of my knowledge, had a console type 70mm projector. They have always gone with the column type design. Even the DP 70 had the lamptable mount to the projector, not the projector to some sort of pedestal or console.

The Simplex and Century 35/70 projectors are no longer production items...they are "POA" (aka Price On Application). Which translates into we don't make it on a regular basis so if you want it, don't be in a hurry and we will price one out for you.

I would think that those two could be had cheaper if magnetic sound was not needed since both use the identical 35mm optical soundhead (now) of their 35mm counterparts. Also the gear train are nearly identical. The film path stuff is what is primarily different.

The FP-75E and the Vic-8 (to the best of my knowledge) are both production machines.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-27-2005, 03:42 PM:
 
One has to be careful of the FP-75E though. It cannot reliably run 70mm at 30fps.

Mark
 

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Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 05-27-2005, 03:57 PM:
 
Andrew,

how about a rebuilt DP70 which will outlast all current machines and has much gentler handling of film which is a point when you run older acetate 70mm prints?

The gentleman above my post should know more about that option...
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-27-2005, 06:51 PM:
 

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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One has to be careful of the FP-75E though. It cannot reliably run 70mm at 30fps.

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Sez who? Just what problems have you run into? The pair under my service seem to not care what speed they run at up to 30 fps (and perhaps a wee bit more).
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-27-2005, 06:59 PM:
 
Sez the operators at the Seattle Cinerama Theatre that tried to run a 30fps print.... Odd you were there a the F-T Drink Night
when it was being discussed... you musta been mezmerized by all the cheese. The machine there kept blowing rail fuses and shredding film when it was run at 30 fps. Blowing just one rail fuse is a really bad thing on most electronic drive machines... it certainly was on the RCA FR-35 electronic machines. One fuse gone equals instant ultra high speed on what ever servo the fuse happens to blow. You should see the reel servos when this happens .

Their FP-75E runs just fine at 24 fps though... perhaps one of those guys will chime in. I wanna say it has since been taken over by another DP-70..... but they would have to confirm that one.

BTW: The only way they could get it to run was with the gate tension all the way down.

Mark
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-27-2005, 07:22 PM:
 
Mark, I must ask...

Why was the gate tension cranked in the first place?

Was the print properly inspected from head to tail before projection?

Was the print properly lubricated before projection, or were they just trying to run an old and probably brittle acetate print dry out of the cans?

Are they aware that the omega spring in the Kinotons can drastically alter the ACTUAL gate tension?

The skate alignment can also shred film if aligned too high.

The fuse issues sound like a Kinoton goof, but the rest of it sounds like operator error to me. Actually, that brings about another question...

Why did the operators not TEST the 30FPS before putting an actual print through the projector? Did they have no junk film to play with for testing purposes? Had they done this, the fuses would've blown with no film damage.

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Andrew, if you are going to insist on a console mount 35/70 projector, go with an older Century JJ that has been rebuilt at a place that knows what they are doing. (I would recommend Hadden.) That will outperform anything Strong is capable of producing nowadays at any price.

The Kinoton is the smarter choice though.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-27-2005, 07:34 PM:
 
1. According to Cinemeccaniac/Milan the Vic 8 has been obsolete for at least 20 years. (This was discussed at the factory while they were checking out a "rebuilt.")

2. I have 8-10 complete JJ in stock and could probably find another 10-20 easily, With the usual Century "updates" these could be excellent machines. My customers normally recycle the SA's but tend not to reinstall the JJ's. (The slight difference between them and SA "confuses" the low level troops!)I mention this since the factory probably has no recent experience; there are PLENTY around.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-27-2005, 07:37 PM:
 
And the sad part about it is that the Century JJ will walk all over a Century SA when running 35mm film in every aspect.

Oooooh, but those wide sprockets are just SO HARD FOR THE KIDDIES!!!
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-27-2005, 07:39 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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And the sad part about it is that the Century JJ will walk all over a Century SA when running 35mm film in every aspect.

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quote: Brad Miller

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Why was the gate tension cranked in the first place?

>I didn't say it was cranked just that it had to be run with ZERO tension.... They more than likely started out at normal tension. It normally requires at least some gate tension.......

Was the print properly inspected from head to tail before projection?

>Ask them that but they are pros for sure and I would have to assume yes for sure.

Was the print properly lubricated before projection, or were they just trying to run an old and probably brittle acetate print dry out of the cans?

> It was a decent 30 fps print(at that time) of "Oklahoma". It ran a few months before just fine on a pair of DP-70's at the Ebert Fest.

Are they aware that the omega spring in the Kinotons can drastically alter the ACTUAL gate tension?

>Fuck the Omega spring... if its that critical the design was poorly done! Show me another 70mm machine that has that critical of gate tension.

The skate alignment can also shred film if aligned too high.

> They ran a bunch of 24 fps 70mm stuff with zero problems during that same fest.

The fuse issues sound like a Kinoton goof, but the rest of it sounds like operator error to me. Actually, that brings about another question...

>Who knows....... I was surprised too, that why I mentioned it here.

Why did the operators not TEST the 30FPS before putting an actual print through the projector? Did they have no junk film to play with for testing purposes? Had they done this, the fuses would've blown with no film damage.

> The fuses did not blow until a ways into the film.

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Beyond what I was told(You were there too.) and can answer here you'd have to ask them,you know them too, but I think they told me just about everything about that fest. I was pretty surprised to hear about the problem my self and sat and heard the whole story. I do have quite a bit of experience with other electronic projectors that operate similarly to the Kinoton and overall they were pretty reliable but a servo problem can be EXTREMELY spectaculuar to see happen !
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-27-2005, 07:55 PM:
 
What happened to that 70mm print of Oklahoma? Did the whole thing get shredded, or was it just a few feet that got damaged? I'm glad I saw it when I did (in Boston, about seven years ago).

Question: who is making mag heads now that Ampex and Teccon are out of business? Obviously, there is a market for heads for 16mm and 35mm dubbers, but I can't imagine that there is very much demand for 70mm mag heads (sadly).
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-27-2005, 07:56 PM:
 
Sorry Mark, but no I don't know who ran that show. I guess I was obsessing over the cheese with Steve.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-27-2005, 08:02 PM:
 
What happened to that 70mm print of Oklahoma? Did the whole thing get shredded, or was it just a few feet that got damaged? I'm glad I saw it when I did (in Boston, about seven years ago).

Not much was damaged. Brad, I will let you know who it was but the guy has run alot of 70 and there were other operators present as well.

Also, I'm not 100% sure but their DP75E might be one of the first that was delivered. I'm no where near sold on electronic pull down except for special applications.

Mark
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-27-2005, 08:10 PM:
 
I've no doubt of the guy's experience...but did he have experience with the FP75E??? That's really more of the question.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-27-2005, 08:27 PM:
 
Yes, Its been in that booth for quite a while and used through other film fests and on a dialy basis. Most of the operators there hate the thing.

Mark
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-27-2005, 08:55 PM:
 
Who is making 70mm heads?

1. Probably no one.

2. I have 6-8 brand new Teccon/Century 6 track heads.

3. Prob. all Teccon that are "out there" are still more than OK.

4. Relapping is (I understand) not as difficult as making the head the first time. (Check with Clyde McKinney.)
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-27-2005, 09:27 PM:
 
Electromag will make any type of head you want. They specialize in Mag film heads. Theirs actually perform quite a bit better than Teccons but not as far as the wear aspect. Have pretty much confirmed this performance on mag dubbers.



I've removed alot of Teccons from DP-70's that were beyond use... they last a long time..... but not forever..... The reel question is will a JJ outlast a Teccon head? Definately NOT . That does keep us working though

Electromag

There is one company making ferrite film heads in standard formats... TJB Magnetics. I've never used their products so can't vouch for them at this point.
TJB Magnetics

Mark
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-28-2005, 08:05 AM:
 
What was the last 70mm print release that had mag striping? "Far and Away"? "Hamlet"? Who still has operational 70mm striping facilities? The smell of a freshly striped print was unique, but those VOC (volatile organic compound) vapors became increasingly regulated.

http://www.answers.com/topic/volatile-organic-compound

"Volatile organic compounds (VOCs) are organic chemical compounds that have high enough vapour pressures under normal conditions to significantly vaporize and enter the atmosphere. (The term VOC is also occasionally used as an abbreviation, especially in biological contexts, for "volatile organic carbon".) A wide range of carbon-based molecules, such as aldehydes, ketones, and hydrocarbons are VOC's. The term often is used in a legal or regulatory context and in such cases the precise definition is a matter of law. These definitions can be contradictory and may contain "loopholes"; e.g. exceptions, exemptions, and exclusions. The term may refer both to well characterized organic compounds and to mixtures of variable composition. Most often the definition used is one from the United States Environmental Protection Agency..."
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-28-2005, 09:02 AM:
 
John, I think the last large scale stripping job was the last re-issue of L.O.A. where about half of the new prints were mag striped.

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-28-2005, 11:39 AM:
 

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Sez the operators at the Seattle Cinerama Theatre that tried to run a 30fps print....

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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BTW: The only way they could get it to run was with the gate tension all the way down.

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quote: Brad Miller

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Are they aware that the omega spring in the Kinotons can drastically alter the ACTUAL gate tension?

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quote: Brad Miller

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Why did the operators not TEST the 30FPS before putting an actual print through the projector? Did they have no junk film to play with for testing purposes? Had they done this, the fuses would've blown with no film damage.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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To be honest, this sounds like a gate that is not properly set up. There are several adjustments on the FP75...including skate height, lower gate position and upper tension. They can be dialed in.

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quote: Louis Bornwasser

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1. According to Cinemeccaniac/Milan the Vic 8 has been obsolete for at least 20 years. (This was discussed at the factory while they were checking out a "rebuilt.")

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quote: John Hawkinson

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Is it insufficient to delay the douser close on the outgoing projector by a few milliseconds, or would that lead to a perceptible black gap?

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quote: Steve Guttag

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The faster the machine is run the more likely the problem is going to show itself. I claim that the gate adjustments were not optimized for 70mm period. I've switched speeds on the fly without problems.

However, if they get it right for 30fps, it will work for 24 fps.

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quote: Scott Norwood

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Couldn't you just have a program that does nothing other than "open changeover on machine where changeover is closed, wait .1 seconds, close changeover on other machine" and wire the manual pushbutton to tell the automation to run that program?

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quote: Michael Schaffer

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And the changeover between machines was a little "soft" with both images superimposed for a very brief moment.

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quote: John Hawkinson

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I was envisioning an analog delay. 0.1 seconds (100ms) sure seems like a long time (2 frames!). Plus, having it work with manual c/o seems a big win.

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quote: Stephen Furley

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I've also seen machines where the changeover wasn't quite closed on the incoming machine, and light was leaking around the edge; had to hold hand in front of lens.

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