Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Simplex Apogee users ?

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Posted by Janne Salminen (Member # 3162) on 06-02-2005, 05:27 AM:

What's your opinion on the Simplex Apogee?
How is it compared to "Millenium",is the picture steadiness as good? Is the new soundhead better than the old one?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-02-2005, 05:32 AM:

..they should have left the Apogee on the drawing board and never made the unit.

2000Mils are better..for it's still an "XL" head that has been stretched upwards a couple of inches to allow full turret rotation without having to open up the turret.

(course, I prefer Christie.....but....lol)

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-02-2005, 07:42 AM:

I wouldn't spec anything from Stong Internationl if you held a gun to my head except for the switching supplies, they haven't picked up the nickname "Wrong International" for no reason.

I would reccomend that you look at Kinoton first and then Christie. You can get a Kinoton for the same price as the Simplex.

Mark

Posted by R. Andrew Diercks (Member # 1725) on 06-02-2005, 07:55 AM:

The Apogee is still on the drawing board. We got three of them last summer. Strong immediately had to redesign the film gate because it cause a reflection on the right side wall surrounding the screen.

Then we had a tech come out to replace the seals around the projector head for a leak problem they were having. Guess what, two of them still leak and we are going to replace the entire heads. We immediatley had some problems with the second loop popping out after splices and Strong suggested moving the "loop shoot" upward. We then scratched every print that ran through them. I subsequently moved all the loop shoots back down and have had no further problems. Actually if they are threaded perfectly the loop doesn't pop out either, we just had to get used to the little quirks with it.

On the new heads Strong has redesigned the loop shoots to prevent scratching which apparently they had in many places. Our company installed about 20 of them last year and have at least half leaking.

As for picture, yes it is very steady and I am happy with the light from the lamphouse. Strong claims the gate tension has to be almost nothing, but we have had to turn ours up a bit to maintain steadiness. One thing I do like is that it forces projectionists to thread perfectly. If you fail to start in frame the intermittent rotates and compresses the bottom loop which may lead to scratching. It can also result in more problems with the loop popping out through splices.

Soundhead works fine, but I don't like the compressed space it sits in. First little while you thread it feels like your all thumbs.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-02-2005, 12:53 PM:

quote: R. Andrew Diercks
One thing I do like is that it forces projectionists to thread perfectly. If you fail to start in frame the intermittent rotates and compresses the bottom loop which may lead to scratching. It can also result in more problems with the loop popping out through splices.

That's not exactly the kind of "feature" to brag about. Now if there was a way to restrict the framer movement to +/- one half perf in either direction, THEN I would say it was something positive, but as it is people will occasionally misthread, crank the framer to compensate rather than stop the machine, and end up with a scratched print. Not cool.

Posted by R. Andrew Diercks (Member # 1725) on 06-02-2005, 01:09 PM:

Brad, I agree that it's not a bragable feature, but the requirement has made them to pay attention on our Christies as well, which when I came to this theatre, NOBODY threaded in frame. Most didn't know what the turndown knob was for. When they finally did it right on the Apogees, they realized how nice it looks to start in frame. I took all but two competent people out of the booth completely and started over. All I'm saying is that the end result of this crappy design flaw was positive.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-02-2005, 01:19 PM:

At least with the Christie design, you can get the framing dialed down perfectly, then lock it down. [Big Grin]

(Only suitable to do in mainstream houses, not art houses where you've got all sorts of screwed up printing jobs to deal with.)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-02-2005, 04:06 PM:

quote: R. Andrew Diercks
The Apogee is still on the drawing board

It should remain there too [thumbsup]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-03-2005, 08:14 PM:

You will have to admit that its not as bad as the XL-II!!

Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-03-2005, 08:52 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
XL-II

OK Lou but only a fraction of an inch better.....
Used to have one of those beasts... can't remember how many belts and gear boxes but it DID set a new record on the count of belts and hgear boxes. [Eek!]

Mark

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-04-2005, 12:24 PM:

Six drive belts.....the shutter compensation assembly had Super Simplex parts running in an oil tank and another mini-oil tank for the shutter drive [Eek!]

I had to evaluate this machine for a cinema circuit in the late 1970's...compared to this beast we decided to use V-5 projectors....because of availabilty of turret, two identical sized drive belts, ball bearings on shafts and at the time, the shutter box problems where not an issue.....and the Italian Lira was weak.

Posted by Janne Salminen (Member # 3162) on 06-06-2005, 07:18 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I wouldn't spec anything from Stong Internationl if you held a gun to my head except for the switching supplies, they haven't picked up the nickname "Wrong International" for no reason.

I would reccomend that you look at Kinoton first and then Christie. You can get a Kinoton for the same price as the Simplex.

Wrong International [Big Grin]

That's funny. I've found out that if I order 10 spareparts from "Wrong", 1 or 2 of them will be something else than what was ordered. Or at least the part numbers will have changed and the new numbers can not be found in any manuals.

Here in Europe there is a big difference between Kinoton and Simplex prices. I guess it's because of the strong Euro. The low price makes Simplex interesting, but I guess we'll stick to European equipment.

Posted by Dieter Depypere (Member # 3184) on 06-06-2005, 07:26 AM:

quote: Janne Salminen
The low price makes Simplex interesting, but I guess we'll stick to European equipment.

Do that! I would also prefer Kinoton equipment.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-06-2005, 09:06 AM:

If you are on a budget, the Kinoton A series make their equipment even more competitive.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-06-2005, 11:50 AM:

quote: Janne Salminen
I've found out that if I order 10 spareparts from "Wrong", 1 or 2 of them will be something else than what was ordered. Or at least the part numbers will have changed and the new numbers can not be found in any manuals.

Here in Europe there is a big difference between Kinoton and Simplex prices. I guess it's because of the strong Euro. The low price makes Simplex interesting, but I guess we'll stick to European equipment.

Don't say that, Janne, that sounds provincial. Stick to good equipment! Which in that particular case happens to come from Europe. But you are right, Simplex is not really an alternative, even with the favorable exchange rate. Remember, you get what you pay for, and in most cases less than that. There is no such thing as "really" cheap equipment.
We just put in 14 complete A series packages, and so far, everything went very well. The machines are very similar to the "originals", the modifications they made to cut costs did not affect the quality of the presentation at all.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-06-2005, 01:47 PM:

What does the "Kinoton A-series" consist of? I don't see that package on their web site, etc.

--jhawk

Posted by Paer Hoegberg (Member # 3133) on 06-06-2005, 02:08 PM:

A-series ARE on the website.

http://www.kinoton.com/cinema-projectors.htm

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-06-2005, 02:48 PM:

Thanks! I foolishly only looked at kinotonamerica.com.

--jhawk

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-06-2005, 03:06 PM:

The basic differences in the "A" series is no motor invertor drive but a simple slo-start kit of electical components, less turret options, different drive motor set up, less expensive chassis work, simplified wire harness layout....Kinoton projection and sound quality in a basic package.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-07-2005, 01:52 AM:

I believe you can get it with all turret/aperture changer options if you want, however, I got it with manual turret to save costs. But all the outputs needed to automatize the turret are there on the main board.
Additionally, you can get an OEM glass reflector instead of the original made by Balzer. The light output with the OEM reflector is very good and even too. The light output may be a little less than with the Balzer reflector, but I haven't had a chance yet to compare the two models side by side.
Then there is the option to get a power supply made in-house by Kinoton instead of the IREM models. It is a very solidly designed high reactance power supply with a 12-SCR block and a relay-controlled boost circuit. The only "catch" is that you can not dynamically adjust the current. You have to set taps.
Finally, there is a new platter model (FT3M) which has a take-off unit ("brain") with a mechanical control arm instead of the legendary optical sensors read by a hall sensor, smaller motors and only one take-up arm which also acts as failsafe. The steering is the same as the "big brother" ST200E, and it runs just as smoothly, that means no brainwraps, no tossed print and all that. It also recalibrates itself continuously, so no timing is needed. In addition to that there is a monitoring software which rocks massively because it shows you if all components are working properly.
The "tradeoff" is that the threading path is a little more complicated (but still fairly easy) and that you have to make sure that the system is properly levelled because the control arm is very sensitive.
All the key components, the mechanical design of the projector head, the intermittent, the deep lamphouse design, the rock-solid basement reader for A and D are virtually the same. It aligns very easily and gives you great and even light output on the screen and a very steady image. You have to look very hard to see the test film move at all on the screen.

They also have a new programmable automation called DMP1 which is available for all projector models and which holds up to 10 freely editable programs with up to 14 steps, time delays between steps, volume control in each step. It talks to the CP650 via a serial interface and the automations can be integrated into a network and remotely monitored/controlled with a PC. These are options however, you can also get the "basic" 3-cue automation CCA3 based on typical American automations.

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 06-09-2005, 01:20 PM:

Hi Guys !

Thank Your for the nickname of "Wrong International" I'ts really funny and "true" in some case with these equipements, especially when You have to order some spare parts and You're receiving all false and tell a complaint to your dealer is more expensive as pay te bill for the wrong part that you just received :-D
An another problem is the automation system who's chrashe him itself when the xenon lamp is energised. Sometimes it's work fine and sometimes it's a projectionist's nightmare. I never found up the solution for this problem.
Another thing. On ours PR1050 we have a lot problems of oil leaking. It's seems a problem with theses projectors, but it was in the 90's the most affordable equipement for us.
It's like a French car: It's never have a breakdown, but anytime something goin' wrong ! ;-D (It's a joke...)
Finnaly for our new multiplexes in Italy and Switzerland, we switched to Cinemeccanica projection equipement. They are not the "top of the top" like Kinoton projector, but with the new curved film gate, the picture look steady.

Best regards at everyone and appologyses for my weak English !

Jean-Michel Grin

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-09-2005, 02:03 PM:

quote: Jean-Michel Grin
On ours PR1050 we have a lot problems of oil leaking. It's seems a problem with theses projectors, but it was in the 90's the most affordable equipement for us.

I know how that one goes. I "tend" 24 PR-1050's with this "Simplex Syndrome" of leakage.

But the leakage can be contained in a majority of a sense if the leakage is coming from the input drive sprocket on the back, which means the main drive seal needs to be replaced (like a oil seal for a car), or is it leaking around the intermittent frame, which isn't sealed by any means-just metal to metal contact-which can be almost cured if one removed the intermittent assembly and completely dry both contacting surfaces of the oil.

Also, check your rear door gaskets, for they could be in need of replacement as well. And when replacing these gaskets (which is the surgicl tubing variety with earlier machinery) have both surfaces completely dry

Oil loves to follow oil....

good luck - Monte

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-09-2005, 02:11 PM:

Is there any advantage to using a motor inverter when one doesn't need variable-speed capability?

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-09-2005, 03:00 PM:

Longer gear train life. In the installations we did on some Century projectors, service calls and gear replacement have become less; on reel to reel machines much less film pop problems.