Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: ELF platters

This is topic ELF platters in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 06-08-2005, 03:12 AM:

Just saw those nice photos from York Theatre and wondering: how tough is the ELF on the prints... I've only seen an ELF in use once - at The MOMI in London, running "Seven Brides" - totally scratched into pieces - it was more black scratches than picture. -How many shows per print do You consider normal on ELF versus traditional platter run ?

Per

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-08-2005, 05:44 AM:

At MOMI the prints were Vacumated, and even then they only lasted 6-8 weeks if I remember correctly (I'll be meeting my former boss and technical manager there next month, and will ask him). Those endless loop platters were hideous, film-destroying things: whoever invented them should be taken to a cellar and introduced to The Gimp.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-08-2005, 06:44 AM:

A few years ago I was at the Projected Picture Trust display at Bletchley Park. I picked up an odd reel of film to demonstrate a projector to a group of visitors, and recognised it as having come from the 'documentary' section at MOMI. The odd thing was that it was printed on colour stock, with a nasty dark green cast. I commented on this to Charles Beddow who was in the room at the time, Leo will know who he is, but for anyone who doesn't, he was the original chief at the National Film Theatre, until he retired a few years previously. He told me that they had problems running black and white stock on the endless loop platters at the museum, and that the prints were therefore made on colour stock. I don't know what the problem was.

Leo, were those prints triacetate or polyester?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-08-2005, 07:25 AM:

There is already a thread about the elf on ground level forum... some mooderator will be salong to combine one with the other soonner or later....

Mark

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-08-2005, 08:52 AM:

If I remember correctly the prints were acetate (this was early '90s when polyester release prints were very rare), but even so humidifiers were needed in each projection box to prevent film jams. I hsad to walk round the museum with a bucket each morning, filling them up!

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 06-08-2005, 03:39 PM:

Here is that other thread Mark pointed out, linked for reference only. Continuing discussion of ELF platters should be kept in this thread.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 06-08-2005, 04:00 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
the elf on ground level forum

After what You all tell, it seems logic to place the ELF on ground floor - as far away from film prints as possible...

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 06-08-2005, 07:25 PM:

B I N G O ! You got it correct there, Per.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-08-2005, 07:29 PM:

Actually, I understand the Classic guys have very little to no problems whatsoever with the loop platters. No scratching, static, jams, etc. Maybe one of the Classic guys can pop in and give us some stats. If there were routine problems with them, I don't think they would still be using them. [Wink]

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-08-2005, 07:29 PM:

That ELF contraption just looks very very wrong. [Eek!]

Not that I would know though.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-08-2005, 07:38 PM:

If the ELF platters are so great, then why aren't they using them on every screen? [Smile]

I just don't see the point of using ELF platters. If you want a reliable operator-less booth, get the Kinotons that rewind through the film gate (see Steve's post on this). If you recognize that the operator-less booth isn't going to happen, then what's such a big deal about re-threading once per show?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-08-2005, 08:26 PM:

quote:
Actually, I understand the Classic guys have very little to no problems whatsoever with the loop platters. No scratching,

Er,ah no Brad. They do scratch prints. Previous customers of mine received prints from at least two of their locations that used them. One locaction was the now defunct Casino Cinemas. Prints from that location typically had cinch marks on them. Perhaps not so visible on their smallish screens at that location but definately visible on my customers 60 foot screen at that time.
They can make all the excuses they want to justify their use but film damage still occurs when film slides on itself.

There was another ELF at the MSI in Chicago for the Space Shuttle ride.... same cinch marks there except even worse as they ran the prints way, way too long.
Mark

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-08-2005, 09:15 PM:

That ELF system looks like it's the unfortunate result of a bar bet between 2 Christie engineers. Or maybe Marketing decided they needed one of those in the product lineup, and some poor bastard in Engineering had to make the thing work. [Razz]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-08-2005, 09:48 PM:

The ELF system won an Academy Technical Achievement Award in 1997:

Academy Award Database

1997
(70th) Technical Achievement Award Projection CLARK F. CRITES for the design and development of the Christie ELF 1-C Endless Loop Film Transport and Storage System

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-08-2005, 09:53 PM:

It's undoubtedly an impressive engineering achievement. But if it's also inherently hard on film... [Shrug]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-08-2005, 09:55 PM:

Mark, what is the timeframe on your experience with the ELFs at Classic?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-09-2005, 12:19 AM:

Brad,
Around 1997 I believe, would have to go back and see. It was right about at the introoduction of estar film. The MSI prints weere acetate..... but doesn't mmatter anyway since the film is still rubbing on itself no matter what year the ELF was producecd in. The laws of physics can't unfortunately be altered as far as a conostantly changing diameter of film goes. Its also interesting that the next 35mmm installation to go in at MSI used a loop cabinet instead of the ELF. They initially had bad static problems with the loop cabinet but thata was easily solved.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-09-2005, 03:34 AM:

Yet, it's interesting that with the incarnation of the 4trk and the 8trk cartridges that became popular on our cars back in the 60's (and there were many other incarnations of endless loop tape devices as well prior to these mentioned above..), that this tactic of endless loop, continous play seems to be the absolute dream of theatre owners/operators-to hit a start button and let the gizmo do it's thing. Thus many film devices were tried and used in a endless loop manner, but never succeeded in being that successful of a device due to the complications in operating such a device.

Probably the only way that the ELF could be more successful is to have the film "lubricated" with a graphite material as with the 4/8track tape cartridges to reduce the sinching and rough contact with the surfaces.....but that'll never happen...

The Film Box Loop device as Mark had mentioned is the only way to go, but the time limit with this device is much shorter, thus used for special venues...

Endless loop, continous playback devices - well, the 8track died due to complications, and the ELF might travel down the same path.

..a dream that will never come true. But, it has came true in a different way...called Digital Projection = $$$$$ !

-monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-09-2005, 08:34 AM:

Actually the elf is not in regular production and has not been for quite a few years. They will still produce aand sell them but minimum orders and other bs apply in order to get them.... not worth it anyway....

BTW: Those 8 track tapes had a special lube on the tape and some also have anti stick sheets of special plastic below and above the tape.

Mark

Posted by Kris Dirix (Member # 3012) on 06-09-2005, 10:15 AM:

quote: John Pytlak
The ELF system won an Academy Technical Achievement Award in 1997

That says much for the peoples practical experience isn't it?? [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-10-2005, 04:19 PM:

I could never see the point.....don't many theatres still move prints many times per day? They sure do around here; even swapping equally sized rooms.

Louis

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-10-2005, 05:19 PM:

That's why more theaters should set up a platter array. [Razz]

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 06-10-2005, 05:41 PM:

I work for Classic, and I worked with ELFs for over three years. I hate them passionately for many reasons. I can only speak for my location, but static is a very big problem, and if you look at them funny, the take-up arm (or whatever it's called) loses tension. It was very stressful working with them, because you never knew when they'd break down. They need so much attention that they are probably more time-consuming than just threading every show. When my theater went to full-time booth staff, we got rid of them (the home office jokingly threatens to bring them back everytime I start causing trouble).

All of this being said, I've never had a problem with them actually damaging the film. I kind of wish that they had, because it would have been a wonderful excuse not to use them, which is absolutely what we would have done.

Also, I have talked to numerous people that have had no problems with the ELFs at all, and love them. So there you go.

Mike