Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DTS discs not arriving with Prints

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Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 07-10-2005, 09:57 PM:

At the busiest time for this part of the year the two biggest movies(War of the Worlds and Fantastic Four) arrived in the country with no DTS discs.
Keep up the Good work DTS-I'm sure this will encourage more people to buy your products!!! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-10-2005, 10:15 PM:

"Keep up the Good work DTS-I'm sure this will encourage more people to buy your products!!! "
Last time I checked DTS doesn't provide the disks to any theatre that is the distributors job and if a theatre doesn't get disks when requested that is actually between the theatre and the distributor only

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 07-10-2005, 11:16 PM:

Hi Ian, I have no problems at all getting DTS disks,Have got DTS disks for war of the worlds 1 set for each print. It's Very rare not to get Disks.I suggest that you contact UIP despatch services and get them to mark that you reqire DTS disks.The other problem is that projection staff cant be bothered to return the disks with the print when they have finished with them and have heaps of them sitting around when regional locations coud be using them.We always return the disks in the box with the print so at least the next location will get the disks .There seems to be a problem with regional cinemas not getting disks.Get onto despatch centre and hastle them.

Cheers [beer]

Steve

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-10-2005, 11:47 PM:

This is one of the stupidest problems the industry has, and would be one of the easiest to fix. Technicolor, at least, scans the DTS disks out with each print. It should be a simple matter to set up a system where any theatre that doesn't return disks gets a bill for oh, say, $500.00. If the disks are returned eventually, they would get a $250 credit.

Why DTS hasn't taken the lead in developing a system -- at no charge -- by which this could be accomplished is beyond me. It is a black eye on an otherwise excellent system.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-11-2005, 02:43 AM:

I haven't had any problems with DTS discs this year.

While it should not be necessary, I made sure TES and ETS knew I have DTS systems here. I figured that, if they were going to knowingly short a print its disc, it would be the print that was shipped to a drive-in. As I have 2 screens on DTS, I made an effort to get around an issue like that. So far, every print has had its discs... the prints I've opened on the break, and those that have seen a screen or two.

As for getting replacements: ETS told me that they have half a dozen "spares" for every feature they get (in the Seattle depot, at least). So... they appear to have the ability to help at least a few theatres that find themselves missing a set.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 07-11-2005, 09:21 AM:

They should make them available as downloads.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-11-2005, 10:07 AM:

Downloads are prob. illegal due to copyright.

BTW: When DTS started up, an old-timer friend of mine listed off several things that are "wrong" with discs: (no discs, wrong discs, broken discs, wear on cactus needle, etc). Of course I am talking about "the first time" discs in 1926.

I have, however, seen at least one time every problem except the cactus needle problem.

Makes you appreciate sound-on-film.

Louis

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-11-2005, 01:12 PM:

Some things never change.....

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 07-12-2005, 08:31 AM:

Well Gordon I've obviously been told lies by our distributors as that's exactly what they told me that "DTS has not sent the discs into the country" I've been making long distance calls to distributors despatch dept,almost on a weekly basis, to send me discs that weren't with the prints I recieve.I did get a set of discs for War of the worlds about 10 days after opening day and I'm still waiting on discs for Fantastic Four.
When we had the DTS installed we contacted all our distributors(on several occassions) to let them know we require DTS discs,as far as I can tell they don't even keep lists of theatres that need DTS discs.I'm sure they never check returned prints in any way-unless the box is falling apart!
Stephen-it's interesting that you got the Discs on time-I have been lied to!!I have asked all despatches to be put onto any list they may have for DTS but I don't think they exist.Fox told us at one stage that they don't handle DTS discs at all and that we would probably never get DTS discs for a Fox Print.I hassle with these people on a weekly basis-DTS is an excellent sounding system and has brought my theatres to life-but the system they use to get the discs to us is [bs]

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 07-12-2005, 05:28 PM:

Ian, have you emailed DTS and asked them to get involved?

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 07-13-2005, 12:29 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Downloads are prob. illegal due to copyright.

The new encryption being used on the audio files makes them unplayable (at least for now) except in a DTS unit, so it shouldn't be a problem.

DTS can track the downloads with theater logins, and IP address logging and what not. They can even set it up so that if you need to download something, you have to make a phone call to them, and they issue you a one time password to download that one movie that you need.

It can be done without making it a free-for-all, and quite frankly, it's amazing that no one has set it up yet.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 07-13-2005, 01:49 AM:

Brad that's my next step to contact DTS direct,I'm over being told crap from our distributors.
I agree-downloading the files would solve the problem.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-13-2005, 05:02 AM:

The offer to host the dts files free for the industry continues to stand here. Something like a 6 months backlog available for download either freely or via password given by dts is easily doable.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 07-13-2005, 08:34 AM:

Ian,

When you contact DTS, make sure you articulate the download idea to them and how helpful that would be in your situation. It's customers pushing them that's most likely to make things happen.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 07-13-2005, 08:48 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
Something like a 6 months backlog available for download either freely or via password given by dts is easily doable.

This would be good for the first run users of DTS, however I have found that the DTS disks tend to be missing for most older films (at least in the UK). Not having a DTS equiped system I have not contatcted the distributers.

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-15-2005, 07:25 AM:

Not getting the “DTS” discs, sounds like the “CDS” problems of the early 1990’s if that rings a bell.

And there none backward compatibility of the ill fated format due to no analogue mix to fall upon as with now Dolby SR-D and the “DTS” time coding on the print with some “SDDS” on some prints not that everyone is jumping on the SDDS band wagon from what I have been reading, at least there’s the Dolby SR-D.

Any way guys this all sounds to me like a conspiracy to get everyone to run “Dolby” and not getting sent the “DTS” disc with the print when requested.

Maybe changes have happened within the “DTS” Company, and distributes like “Fox” “paramount” etc or something completely different.

Hope you can resolve the resolution between who is supplying you with the “DTS” discs.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-15-2005, 07:54 AM:

Any difficulties in shipping DTS discs to theaters isn't part of any conspiracy to get everyone to use Dolby. It's simply the all too real problem in shipping when you have numerous parties involved. My day job is in an entirely different business, but we get headaches with various carriers, product distributors and others from time to time. It's just the nature of shipping things. Errors are going to happen. The system just needs to be improved.

I agree with Brad's suggestion. Have the DTS discs hosted on some sort of site, such as this one.

Also, I don't think the CDS analogy makes much sense. That system failed for a variety of reasons not at all related to any of the difficulties with DTS: (no analog failsafe track, much slower CCD imagers in 1990 expected to read an audio track with over 6 millon bits of data per second, lower quality methods of high speed film printing in 1990, high equipment price and finally Dolby Digital announced vaporware to cut CDS product demand).

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 09-20-2007, 11:55 AM:

It has been 797 days since the last post.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 09-20-2007, 11:55 AM:

This may have been answered already but I will say it again in case it helps anyone. I contacted DTS about how to get disks for our theater since we just installed DTS unit. They are going to contact the depots and let them know that we now require disks for all films.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-21-2007, 07:12 PM:

I have one theater that I service in Lovell, Wyoming that has a DTS player and they rarely get the disks when the prints are shipped from Technicolor... they call Technicolor and just get the runaround for the most part. One time TEchnicolor shipped their disks by Greyhound to Billings, Montana.... they don't appear to be to swift at Technicolor these days. I told them next time it happens to call DTS and complain about Technicolor. It'll be interesting to see what happens at your end.....

Mark

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-21-2007, 09:08 PM:

the problem of missing disks must be rare enough that DTS doesn't give a hoot about it. Otherwise there would be huge red stickers all over the place warning about the penalties for not returning the disks. No penalties apparently exist, hence the problem.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 09-21-2007, 09:20 PM:

Another twist. There ia a rep at DTS who seems to be at least trying to find me some answers. The answer I got though seems a little funny to me. I am looking for the disks to a film called "The man of my life" which has DTS timecode throughout the entire print. Also, on the can, it says SRD/DTS. He tells me that the print isnt DTS but may have been timecoded for future use. I find that to be a bit strange.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-21-2007, 09:29 PM:

quote: Richard May
Also, on the can, it says SRD/DTS. He tells me that the print isnt DTS but may have been timecoded for future use. I find that to be a bit strange.

Not really. They do that so the same prints can later be used with a different language sound track.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-21-2007, 09:53 PM:

I've seen the DTS time code thing on feature films that didn't have DTS CD-ROMs. The Edge (1997) is one such example. Buena Vista was placing DTS time code on some of their trailers, such as Nixon a year or so before they had their first DTS-supported "quad format" release (Con Air).

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-21-2007, 10:15 PM:

You guys think it's a bummer not to get discs when you are playing brand new prints? Try finding them when you are retrospective and you are playing them a year or two (or 10) out. We get MAYBE one out of every 7.

But as far as first run, I would think you guys should skip the depot and go directly to the studio, I mean, if the studio knew that on one of their big opening weekend you are going to have to put up a sign at the box office saying "Playing only in ANALOG sound due to (name studio) not supplying the digital sound data." It sure seems to me it would be in the studio's vested best interest to light a fire under Technicolor to get you the discs you need so that they don't loose any box office sales. After all, it's their 90% that they loose for every patron that decides to go to see another picture in the same cinema -- all the theatre owner looses is that measely 10% but he still gets the concession sales if the patron choose to watch something else.

Does anyone ever call the studio booking office about no discs? Maybe if they get enuf complaints they might reverse their idiotic paranoia about allowing secure internet downloads.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 09-22-2007, 05:10 AM:

The last time I phoned a distributor in the UK to enquire about missing DTS disks I was told that 'Dolby' would send them to me directly! I told them that 'Dolby' had nothing to do with it but they insisted I was wrong!

We NEVER receive disks with prints anymore despite repeatedly contacting all our distributors in advance and requesting them. I now contact DTS directly and ask them to send us a copy.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-22-2007, 08:25 AM:

One of my old-timer friends said it best: "We solved this problem back in 1928."

Seriously, I have MANY customers who only run dts if they get discs. They are tired of complaining. Louis

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 09-22-2007, 08:38 AM:

It appears that this situation is not improving , We opened Hairspray as a new release , a musical and I was thinking how great this will sound in DTS , It sounds like crap because we cannot get discs for it. Such a real pity since the show is going really well.

Maybe they should have them available via the net and we could download our own as we need them.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 09-22-2007, 10:54 AM:

Perhaps we should petition DTS regarding this situation (or at least make them aware of this, and similar, threads)?

Seem a real shame that such a brilliant sounding system should be let down in this way.

Posted by Markus Lemm (Member # 3456) on 09-22-2007, 11:46 AM:

I agree with a petition to get either a server setup for download or a way to get DTS discs sent out directly to the cinema.

Phil, we also didn't get discs for 'Hairspary'. The Canadian distributor told us they only printed 6 copies of the discs and they were all destroyed in the cans.

There must be a solution to this problem!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-22-2007, 01:27 PM:

What's wrong in not letting your prints run in good ol' Dolby SR 05 optical for a change?

Let that section of your processor do some work for a while since it sits idly away doing nothing when in you do digital formats (unless, you strongly admit that your system is in dire need of a tuneup and you know that your optics haven't been cleaned and aligned for a while... [Big Grin]

), for when SR is tuned to specs, SR can sound close to digital can since you're dealing with a pure analog soundform - not a sampled soundform.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-22-2007, 01:49 PM:

A good idea for those that have decent SR capability. Many of my customers do not.

Mark

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 09-22-2007, 01:54 PM:

We run SR mode ninety nine per cent of the time and does sound good. DTS makes a nice change and sounds better!

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 09-22-2007, 03:53 PM:

It's just very surprising that DTS would let this happen. With SDDS basically out of the picture, you would think that DTS would be on top of this more. It's a shame since DTS sounds really good.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-22-2007, 06:14 PM:

Yes, it's the ONE bad point about the DTS system and yet they do nothing to address it. But they can yell as loud as they want, it's really the film companies' problem to handle. DTS doesn't distribute the disks.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 09-22-2007, 10:01 PM:

At our neighborhood inde single screen, we have received many films recently with an empty plastic lab film container instead of a broken reel as a spacer in the case. I have always placed a tape on the plastic box "SOUND REEL" and enclosed a block of foam and the DTS case with the disc inside. That way it is a "reel" for inventory purposes and protects from damaging discs in the can. This is also a reminder to put the disc back into the carrier and the "Sound Reel" box.

KEN [Smile]

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 09-23-2007, 04:18 AM:

That's a great idea Kenneth. In the UK we receive our prints in plastic 'cans'. An extra can (possibly customised to accommodate the CD ROM case) would certainly help distributors (and theatres) to think that the DTS sound is an essential part of the package.

As for DTS not being responsible for the problems of distribution. I think they need to get involved. After-all, at the end of the day, their product is being compromised. If I was a manufacturer of any product and the distribution and logistics chain broke down, I would feel very worried!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-23-2007, 01:43 PM:

I personaly liked the old DTS yellow diskholder case that was the size of a film reel in diameter

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-23-2007, 01:56 PM:

I can see the studios not caring too much about second run venues, but as Phil said, he played HAIRSPRAY on the OPENING! How about the theatre call the studio and tell them they won't play it in analog sound. I mean, it's really the studio's responsibility to supply a playable, competitive print. Sure they may say, but you can play the analog track to which the theatre says, "No, that puts me at a competitive disadvantage over my competition who are playing it in digital. If you are going to do that, give me 10% off the ticket percentage to even out the playing field."

Yah, I know....I'm delusional.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-24-2007, 12:14 AM:

To be competitive, I went to the competition and copied their DTS discs when I played Hairspray. If I had of known there was supposedly only 6 copies in Ontario I would have hawked them on eBay as "super RARE, must have". [Wink]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-24-2007, 09:55 AM:

On a "quad" print there are 4 soundtracks:

1. sound on film (analog)

2. sound on film (digital--Dolby)

3. sound on film.....for a while (sdds)

4. sound not on film (dts)

Louis

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-07-2007, 12:17 PM:

So, what are we going to do guys? Seems like this topic is discussed so often yet nothing happens. Are we going to petition DTS or the distributors or both?

I think we need to take some decisive action (or just ditch all our DTS gear and opt for Dolby)!

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-07-2007, 02:38 PM:

I think what you said here Andy is a key point;

quote:
An extra can (possibly customised to accommodate the CD ROM case) would certainly help distributors (and theatres)
to think that the DTS sound is an essential part of the package

(My italics)

If the film is mixed* in DTS...then it should be released in DTS, period. No excuses, no stories, no get-out clauses!

Surely Distributors who don't supply discs must be breaking some sort of contractural obligations? Theoretically, it must be possible to also omit Dolby Digital and SDDS tracks on prints (if the film has also been mixed in these formats), but this is never allowed to happen...thus, are the legal agreements for DTS different to those for DD and SDDS?

* "Mixed" being used here to mean the release formats decided upon during the mixing stage

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-07-2007, 03:43 PM:

Sorry if this stating what Basil Fawlty called the bleedin' obvious, but I'm going to state it anyway.

The only reason why the DTS system was based on data storage using CDs, is because when it was launched in 1992 there was simply no other viable way of shipping that much digital data from distributor to cinema. Cinemas were willing to faff about with CDs because the higher bitrate of the audio data and the more resilient timecode reading gave it a significant advantage over Dolby and Sony.

How big is the longest DTS soundtrack you'll ever really need to transport from A to B? Around a gigabyte, I'd guess. The Internet can now shift that volume of data in a few minutes, even to a domestic household. From this thread it's becoming obvious that the unreliability of CD deliveries is a major problem. Unless they want to continue losing market share, surely it's time for DTS to abandon the offline delivery model and replace it with two alternatives: 1 - a secure server from which approved venues with a username and a password can download ISO CD images to burn for use in existing players, and 2 - equip new players with a hard drive and a direct Internet connection, so they can download the audio data directly and play it back from a local hard drive (or even RAM).

Whereas we've probably reached the limit of the amount of audio information we can put on a film print itself (both in terms of the optical data itself and the extent of lossy compression), the timecode synchronised to an external processor model still has life left in it, IF the problem of delivering the data to the processor reliably can be solved.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-07-2007, 05:14 PM:

That was pretty much the idea behind the LC Concepts system, which used Magneto-optical recordable discs onto which a cinema could download the soundtrack; normal hard disks weren't big enough then. At the time I couldn't see the point in such a system until the picture could be delivered in the same way; something which as then nowhere near being practical. It hadn't occurred to me, and I suspect that it hadn't to DTS either that people wouldn't return the CDs with the print.

The current DTS players do have a hard disk, from which they play the track, rather than playing it direct from the CDs. I don't know if they have an Ethernet connection which could be used for downloading tracks. If they do it shouldn't be too difficult to provide a simple software upgrade to enable it to be used for a remote console connection from a pc to do the download, or download to the pc, and then do a FTP transfer onto the DTS player.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 10-07-2007, 10:45 PM:

Sub run theatres have the choice of digital sound worn off the print, sound on non-supplied discs or analog sound with regular fall-off.

It seems to me that the pretty coloured analog track requires more regular equipment attention. If we are fortunate enough to have a run of usable digital tracks, the analog system can be neglected, even though it is silently working away all the time.

If we have discs, we usually run trailers analog to monitor its state of health and organise a tech visit if necessary.

Some distributors have a policy NOT to get discs for any of their titles. Pity, because we have only occasionally heard a sound-on-film track that equals DTS.

At least the hard drive gives us consistent image and sound, though I will continue to gamble with film prints if the feature is in the Scope format. Letterboxing, pansying and cropping are more annoying than print problems.

What sort of money are we talking about to send discs to every cinema that requests them? We have to pay extra for the music and the sound recording. Perhaps the record licencing organisation could distribute the discs so that we actually get something for our fees.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-08-2007, 04:20 PM:

We are fortunate in having the latest DTS XD10 media player which does indeed allow us to store all the CD soundtracks on the internal hard drive. The unit is fitted with an ethernet port!

Returning to the original topic, how do we get DTS to address the issue of disks not being available?

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-09-2007, 09:21 AM:

New legal contracts, plus making the data available for secure download as outlined above, would seem the way to go.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-09-2007, 09:37 AM:

I wrote a long letter to DTS talking about this problem but I doubt it will get anywhere. Now, a lot of my customers are asking me to install Dolby Digital to replace their existing DTS units. I also mentioned that in my letter. It really seems to me that they just don't care about the problem. That's my impression anyway. Either way, I won't lose any sleep over it. I've had it up to here fighting with them about it. If they want to let their business slip away, that's their problem.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-09-2007, 10:46 AM:

Sorry, guys, the money is in new equipment sales, not disc sales. This situation was predictable back during Jurassic Park. Louis

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-09-2007, 12:46 PM:

Sorry to dissapoint you all but in our country, the DTS discs always arrive with the prints even if the cinema is not equiped with DTS!!! I reconn its the distributors' fault for not sending it to the theaters mostly. Would you blame Dolby if your films arrived with DTS only timecode and no Dolby Digital track???!

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 10-09-2007, 12:57 PM:

Back in 1993 with the release of Jurassic Park, we almost never got the DTS discs. There was the noise that we needed to special order them and then the distributor (Highway at the time) wouldn't forward them to the theater.

But that was 14 years ago. Now, with a very few exceptions, we get discs with every print. Our print of "War" actually came with two sets.

DTS has always stated that they do not own the discs - they belong to the studio. In my mind, it's the studio's responsibility to get the discs to the distributor and then the distributor's responsibility to get them to the theaters.

I only wish they would go back to the yellow disc rings - the DVD cases they've been using almost always arrive crushed. I agree with the idea of having a secure download site where theaters can pull down the files and then burn them to CD-RW - or upload them directly into the XD-10. I'd like to be able to pull down the individual trailer audio as well, so I can burn custom feature/trailer discs for use in the old 2-drive DTS-6.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-09-2007, 01:41 PM:

Well, Daniel Schulz and Mike B. Smith posted in the other thread "DTS CSS System" and Richard May asked them to come over here to comment. They sound like they ARE indeed interested in solving DTS problems. Let's hope they can address this irksome problem. I mean, there certainly are advantages that DTS holds over the other digital sound-on-film systems and a lot of us here like, even favor, DTS (it's all I've got!). It would be a shame that a problem that seems so simple to fix has become such a major roadblock.

Saying it's the studio's fault isn't the answer, although I still contend that theatres are not putting enough pressure on the studios when discs don't arrive. If we did more screaming instead of hand-wringing, maybe the studios would be more responsive. Be that as it may, seems DTS has a vested interest in pushing for what everyone here sees as the most expedient of solutions, especially in today's internet environment, and that would be using that medium to download the audio. I mean, isn't it the STUDIOS who are all gun-hoe for downloading both picture and soundtrack to theatres? What's this idiotic bugaboo about downloading the soundtrack all of a sudden? All of a sudden they are switching on their oh-so-tired piracy paranoia again?

DTS needs to smack some of these studio suits upside the head -- secure downloading sites are a hellofalot more secure than the hundreds of DTS discs which evidently wind up just floating about unsecured, not password protected and whose whereabouts seems of no concern to anyone -- at least that has to be the assumption since they never wind up going back with the prints. DUH.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 10-09-2007, 01:54 PM:

You would think either DTS or the studios could get this worked out. Give the theatre a user ID and password, like most of us have with our exhibitor relations accounts. If you need a soundtrack, enter the print number and your info, so at least it can be shown you're pulling a file for something you actually booked. Download the disk, then toss it in with the print when you're done. It may not be a tight security issue, but it is about as good as going over and copying the disk from some other theatre.

Like Frank says... these disks can be laying around everywhere as it is, and nobody seems to care about that.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-09-2007, 02:14 PM:

Guys,

Of course they want to know that all their players are in action but once the disks leave their hands and are delivered to distribution there is little else thay can do.

Mark

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 10-09-2007, 02:24 PM:

Those of us with XD-10's it seems DTS could come up with a direct online solution to download the sound track directly into the unit, since they do have ethernet jacks. I know it doesn't solve the problem for everyone, as everyone doesn't have broadband at the theatre. But, it could be a start.

What size file would a typical soundtrack be to download?

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 10-09-2007, 02:49 PM:

DTS soundtracks run about 140mb per reel. Obviously it depends on the length of the reel.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-09-2007, 03:14 PM:

The unfortunate thing about all of this is that DTS is actually a pretty good system as long as the prints are available in the format and the disks are shipped with the prints. Unfortunately, only very popular mainstream titles seem to be available in the format.

Posted by Patrick de Groot (Member # 858) on 10-09-2007, 03:44 PM:

It's really not difficult to put up an download site. A protected FTP site will do. Create ISO files, compress them and distribute them. Piracy should be of no concerne. If I wanted to, I can bring my laptop and copy the discs while working (if I were working at a cinema).

Give each cinema a general ftp username/password. Then create password protected archives (I prefere RAR) that contain the ISO's of a perticular film. Every title has it's own unique random password (Xl@wo381Dei#21). RAR encrypts using the AES-128 standard. Theaters can contact DTS by mail to request a title password. Double security: even if someone gets hold of the cinema's username/password, they can only download, not extract the ISO's without the title password.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 10-09-2007, 04:16 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Unfortunately, only very popular mainstream titles seem to be available in the format.

Scott, I must disagree. With a very few exceptions, almost every studio title has a DTS track. The last studio title I recall not having a DTS track was "Hot Fuzz". Granted, some of the art house films or limited release titles may not have include a DTS track. And then getting discs on some of these titles with smaller release numbers may be an issue. For example, we got no discs for our two prints of "Into the Wild", but we did get discs on both prints of "The Assassination of Jessie James".

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-09-2007, 05:36 PM:

Sorry Mark, but if I had a product that was not being delivered by my distibutors, I would take care of it myself. I think that is the main issue here. DTS is having a problem with the distributors getting the disks to people and they don't seem to be doing ANYTHING about it. It's not like this problem just developed. It's been going on far too long.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 10-09-2007, 06:20 PM:

I don't think it's the distributors. Last year, I only ran one release print that didn't come with a disk, and that was because it was too low-budget to have it in the first place.

No, the problem is with lazy-butt theatres that don't return the disks with the prints. I'll admit, it's even easy to do by accident.

Our local ETS (DFS Seattle) depot assured me once that they do want those disks back so they can return them to the prints... and they say they do. Other area depots may not... I don't know. In any case, I can't see that this would be much of a problem at all if the booth ops took the time to put the disks back in the boxes. I'm pretty sure most of the prints started with 'em.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-09-2007, 08:23 PM:

Simple solution to that. Charge the theaters when they don't return the disks. Watch how fast that stops then.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-10-2007, 11:35 AM:

Question: at what point are DTS discs inserted into the distribution chain?

Are they added at the lab...OR at the distribution depot? Because if it is post-laboratory then it would seem easy for all sorts of delays and problems to occur.

Instead, if the discs were added to the print contents at the lab when the film was being prepared for shipping, then that would tie in with the philosophy that the discs are part of each print. That would also readily facilitate the use of the yellow disc holders, etc.

(This being aside to the download solution, which after all wasn't around when DTS first debuted, so could legitimately be introduced now as part of ongoing product development)

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-10-2007, 11:42 AM:

The download system won't work due to problems/paranoia with "rights." Also, piracy in foreign markets.

I believe that discs are inserted at the same time the film is put on shipping reels, probably NOT at the lab. Louis

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 10-10-2007, 03:35 PM:

The problem is the distributors.. certain distributors don't want to pay for the rights to use DTS, so no discs arrive with the prints. For example Alliance Atlantis (in Canada) never sends discs with its prints. Also sometimes the timecode is printed on the print..but the discs are never made to save costs. Its really to bad there isn't a server to download these discs. Is copyright really an issue when whole movies being sent on hard drives or across servers for digital cinema?

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-10-2007, 04:44 PM:

So, what are we going to do? Who can we contact? If nothing changes we will still be complaining about this situation in one, two or even five years time (assuming film is still around then)!

Are there any representitives of DTS who might be willing to comment on this?

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-10-2007, 06:42 PM:

quote: Paul Gordon
Is copyright really an issue when whole movies being sent on hard drives or across servers for digital cinema?

Remember that with digital cinema, content is encrypted beyond imagination, and can only be unlocked for a certain period of time using a key that is specific to that title and serial number of the player.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-10-2007, 07:03 PM:

So, why can't this be done for DTS? Surely each XD10 could have its own public/private key pair and an encrypted burnable ISO image could be provided on demand that would play only on a particular XD10. Not sure what would happen to owners of the 6 and 6D units, but at least it would make the format a viable option for new installs/upgrades. If anyone really cared, the known owner of the XD10 could be cross-referenced to the list of theatres that booked a particular title.

Still, all of this seems pretty silly since I fail to see how it would be useful to have a pirated copy of a film's soundtrack with no picture. And anyone who had access to a print from which to pirate the picture would have access to the optical track and probably one or two other digital tracks as well.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-11-2007, 01:46 AM:

Seems logical that if no one is worried about the unaccounted for discs containing the unencrypted soundtrack floating around the country (because we know they are not in the film cans where they once started out), then they certainly shouldn't be worried about password protected, encrypted datastream downloads -- at least not if all the freakin brain cells were working.

Software companies seem to have worked that out well enough to be confident that they can allow downloads of their product and it is secure enough to protect THEIR copyrighted material from being compromised. What's with the studios whose copyrighted content winds up traveling thru every imaginable transmission system, and all THAT doesn't seem to freak them out, but heavy password protected FTP, encrypted datastream download DOES?

They are a morass of contradiction and frightening stupidity.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-11-2007, 08:31 AM:

Oh well, I suppose it's down to flogging the DTS system then and buying Dolby!

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-11-2007, 10:07 AM:

So, umm, you guys know that DTS has representatives who read these forums and comment on a technical basis where they can. Since this has been a perennial topic, I think it's safe to say they are well aware of it and probably doing what they can. That they have not answered publicly probably means they are not in a position to give a good answer, probably because there are difficult political and managerial problems involved in the solution. I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss the problem and DTS's solutions, you should contact DTS privately.

Remember that it's not in our interest to make vendor representatives feel uncomfortable in this forum -- if the forum is too hostile, they may be obliged to leave.

Scott asks, "Still, all of this seems pretty silly since I fail to see how it would be useful to have a pirated copy of a film's soundtrack with no picture. And anyone who had access to a print from which to pirate the picture would have access to the optical track and probably one or two other digital tracks as well."

My understanding is that there have been multiple documented instances of through-the-air camcorder captures of films being combined with DTS discs to produce pirated films with high-quality audio and low-medium quality picture. The effort involved to get audio off of DTS discs is a lot less than the effort involved to get it off a print, and from the perspective of the studios, the battle against piracy is very much about "raising the bar."

One can imagine a lot of complex (which means difficult-to-debug, manage, etc.) cryptographic schemes that could orphan processors older than the XD10, but when it comes down it, in most cases I expect getting DTS to FedEx copies of the discs to you is just as effective. This they will do.

--jhawk

Posted by Patrick de Groot (Member # 858) on 10-11-2007, 11:26 AM:

DVDScr anyone?
No trip to the cinema needed to get your ready to recode or copy source.

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-11-2007, 11:53 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
I believe that discs are inserted at the same time the film is put on shipping reels, probably NOT at the lab. Louis

Thanks Louis, that helps in understanding the procedures used.

quote: Paul Gordon
The problem is the distributors.. certain distributors don't want to pay for the rights to use DTS, so no discs arrive with the prints. For example Alliance Atlantis (in Canada) never sends discs with its prints

That seems to answer my earlier questions on contractural issues. The problem is however that if the Filmmaker wishes to release the film in DTS (as decided at the mix stage), then there should be a contractural mechanism that makes this happen down the chain to the cinema. It shouldn't be an option that can be avoided if e.g. a downstream party believes the "cost" is "too high".

DTS is a great system and should be treated equally with the other two systems. IMHO the decision of what release formats to use should be in the hands of the Filmmaker. Once they've decided what to do then everything should flow from that, and fulfil on their intentions.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 10-11-2007, 12:28 PM:

quote: Brian Guckian
The problem is however that if the Filmmaker wishes to release the film in DTS (as decided at the mix stage), then there should be a contractural mechanism that makes this happen down the chain to the cinema.

There can't be such a contractual mechanism. Why? Because Dolby would cry foul.

Saying "A movie being mixed in DTS requires you, contractually, to play it in DTS" would be the same as saying "A movie being mixed in SRD requires you, contractually, to play it in SRD." And since movies are almost always mixed in all 3 of the major digital formats, such contractual requirements would conflict with each other.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-11-2007, 01:24 PM:

quote: Chris Slycord
"A movie being mixed in DTS requires you, contractually, to play it in DTS"

I think what Brian means is if the movie has a DTS mix and timecode, then *someone* should be contractually required to supply the discs (or a secure download site) to exhibitors. He's not saying anyone is required to play it in DTS.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-11-2007, 02:08 PM:

John ,
You are right about DTS personnel having to be careful about what they say one here. I have contacted DTS directly and lets just say I am not satisfied by the answers I get. I don't see how this is such a big deal to correct. Like someone else posted on here, people will start switching to Dolby. Some of my customers already did.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 10-11-2007, 07:46 PM:

Hi everyone,

First of all, thanks to the Film-Tech Forum for providing a place for this sort of feedback to be aggregated. I'll do my best to address the concerns raised on this thread.

In general, DTS soundtrack discs are inserted into the film cans at the film shipping depots (Deluxe Film Services and Technicolor Entertainment Services, for those of you operating in the US). It is the depot's responsibility to ensure that a disc goes out with every release print: missing discs should be reported to DFS or TES, who will provide replacements. It has been my experience that both companies are responsive to requests for discs (whether missing or damaged): if you have any push-back from the depot please let us know at DTS so that we can address with our contacts with them.

Likewise if those of you in international territories are being told by the film shippers that discs are not available please let us know at DTS. In many cases the studios are ordering discs for these territories (eg. Canada, the UK and Australia ), so if there is a breakdown in getting the discs from the studios' offices in territory to the individual theaters then we need to track down where this is happening.

Regarding the electronic downloading of soundtracks: of course this is a good idea, and one that gets re-examined often, but there are constraints placed on us that make it impractical at this time. The content is owned by the studios, and while I take the point that there are encryption schemes that could keep the content relatively secure, persuading all of Hollywood to allow DTS to store their soundtracks on a publicly accessible server is an unlikely scenario.

As to who to contact regarding missing discs, general disc availability problems, or general DTS questions, you may reach us at:

DTS Digital Cinema
+1 818-706-3525 - ask for Post Production
postproduction@dtsdcinema.com

Thanks,

Daniel Schulz
Manager, Post Production
DTS Digital Cinema

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-12-2007, 06:50 AM:

Daniel, many thanks for that very clear and helpful reply - much appreciated.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 10-12-2007, 02:41 PM:

Thank you Daniel, Information is appreciated.

I have for one had problems with both Tech & DFS in regards to replacement disc's. They simply don't have a clue when you call either of them. Or in the case of DFS, they won't ship it to us, they expect us to drive 100 miles to pick it up.

Thanks again for your contributions here.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-14-2007, 03:59 AM:

This has been said before in othe threads, but bears repeating: Why aren't the exhibitors who don't return the disks being charged a large fee for those missing disks? If this happened, the problem would end almost immediately.

They will supposedly charge me if I don't return all the reels, so why not the DTS disks?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-14-2007, 04:53 AM:

I say, give the discs a Reel Number in sequence -- if the print is 6 reels, you call the DTS disc holder Reel 7. Psychologically, if you call Technicolor or DFS and say, "Hey, idiots, the print you sent of NAME THAT TITLE is missing reel 7," it would make a significant impression on them; a missing reel -- THAT they understand. Put the discs in a holder that is the SAME SIZE as a reel and put that in a can designed to carry that extra reel. Clearly mark the disc holder with its reel number.

It seems obvious that the personnel who ship prints currently are oblivious to the presense of the discs -- it means nothing to them when they don't come back or when the print is sent out without them. Do you think they would send out a 6 reel print with only 5 reels in the cans? So making the discs holder a "reel" will be a step in making these people understand that something is missing from a DTS print if all the reels are not there. If the inventory said a print was 7 reels and it obviously had an empty space in the can and only 6 reels, it would be treated as a mistake.

And of course the theatres would have to make noise about it when they don't get that reel 7. If they don't raise hell when they don't get the discs but play it in another sound format, then don't expect the people at the depot to be much concerned when the discs are not there.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-14-2007, 10:05 AM:

Great thinking Frank! That is exactly the way we need to go. We need everyone to know that a DTS disk is part of the print (regardless of whether or not any particular theatre is DTS equipped). Failing to return the contents of the additional can should be harshly penalised - as if an actual reel of film was missing!

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-14-2007, 10:32 AM:

It definitely has been suggested in the past, by me included. Charging for not returning the disks would end this problem not almost immediately, but IMMEDIATELY. Why can't this be done? I see no reason whatsoever that it can't. Why do the simplest solutions get overlooked?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-14-2007, 11:00 AM:

The film company could do this simply by defining it to be so. Good idea, Frank. Louis

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 10-14-2007, 02:24 PM:

From this forum page 3

quote: Kenneth Wuepper
At our neighborhood inde single screen, we have received many films recently with an empty plastic lab film container instead of a broken reel as a spacer in the case. I have always placed a tape on the plastic box "SOUND REEL" and enclosed a block of foam and the DTS case with the disc inside. That way it is a "reel" for inventory purposes and protects from damaging discs in the can. This is also a reminder to put the disc back into the carrier and the "Sound Reel" box.

KEN

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-14-2007, 02:50 PM:

What the hell am I missing here? Look at all these ideas being brought forth. All to help solve this STUPID problem. WAKE UP DTS!!!!!!!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-14-2007, 03:02 PM:

Richar May said "wake up DTS"
It has been said many times before they have no control over disk distribution They make them for the studio in question and if they want to use them as say frisbees then so be it that is the owners ie the studio's choice

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-14-2007, 03:15 PM:

That's fine with me Gordon. If DTS wants to take that stance, I will be more than happy to replace the existing DTS units with something else. As I said before though, if I had a product that was having an issue like this, I would surely take care of it myself. I'm tired of hearing about how DTS has no control after the distributors get the disks. It's DTS's product that it being affected. GET CONTROL!

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 10-14-2007, 08:50 PM:

The "Sound Reel" idea is excellent.

Of course it would not work with distributors who, as a matter of policy, will not have discs for their prints.

It might also be problematic for regions like Australia where the majority of prints are not shipped on reels or in cans but loose in cardboard boxes.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-14-2007, 09:44 PM:

A question for Daniel:

Why was the yellow (or black) reel-shaped disk holder scrapped in the first place? We got hundreds of prints with that holder, and I hardly ever saw a damaged one. With the DVD-type cases, they are nearly ALWAYS damaged, sometimes even on brand-new prints!

I got a print once where the single DTS disk was broken in half inside the crushed DVD case.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 10-15-2007, 04:50 PM:

I forgot to mention in my earlier posting, for our customers in Europe you may contact DTS Europe regarding missing discs at dtseurope@dtsdcinema.com, or by telephone at +44 118 982 8600.

Thanks,

Daniel

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 10-15-2007, 05:52 PM:

... and in Australia?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-15-2007, 06:14 PM:

At first I thought Daniel was ignoring my question but then I realized I worded it badly. I originally said:

quote:
With the DVD-type cases, they are nearly ALWAYS damaged, sometimes even on brand-new prints!

What I meant was, the DVD-type plastic cases are damaged, not the disks themselves...but I do think disks get beat-up more frequently now than they did when they were shipped in the reel-type cases. So my question remains: Why was that scrapped?

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 10-15-2007, 07:52 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
So my question remains: Why was that scrapped?

I'll bet because some bean counter said it would save $.

Posted by Markus Lemm (Member # 3456) on 10-16-2007, 02:12 AM:

We are playing 'Moulin Rouge' and it came with the old style DTS reel.

Maybe it is time to try this again.
It is a nice reminder to return the DTS discs!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 10-16-2007, 05:25 PM:

quote: Ron Curran
... and in Australia?

Please contact your nearest Dolby distributor. [Wink]

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-16-2007, 05:47 PM:

LMAO John. That's what it seems to be coming down to.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 10-16-2007, 06:34 PM:

There is not at present a DTS office in Australia, so please contact us here in Los Angeles regarding disc shipping issues.

Regarding the old disc shipping reels: I was around when they were phased out, and the transition had more to do with uniform shipping practices for domestic and international distribution than with bean counting per se, though the cost savings to DTS' customers for disc shipping were a consideration as well.

In testing it proved out that the overall instances of unplayable discs from shipping in amarays were marginal: remember that internationally no one ever got behind the yellow reels, and the amaray cases are significally more durable than the CD "jewel" cases that international DTS discs were shipped in previously.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 10-16-2007, 08:13 PM:

Thanks Daniel.
... and John, good comment. Have never seen a response from Dolby regarding the frequent failure of the DD tracks. That problem is the reason we try to get discs for sub runs. Apart from my opinion that DTS sounds better.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-19-2007, 12:18 PM:

quote: Richard May
LMAO John. That's what it seems to be coming down to.

Actually its all going to boil down to an industry wide conversion over to D-Cinema!

A gal from DTS post production that I met at Show East asked me to let all of you know that there IS very definately someone at DTS that would like to know when you don't get a disk(s).

postproduction@dts.com

Now DTS post is in charge of among other things supplying the studios with disks for all the titles. If you don't get a disk DTS post will alert the studio and let them know that distribution is not doing it's job. This is the only route to get word directly to the studios about disk problems.

And of course DTS sounds better... there is far less data compression involved!

Mark

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 10-19-2007, 01:10 PM:

And I'll just throw in my $.02 for a return to the shipping rings. The Amaray case in our print of "Gone, Baby, Gone" was severely damaged, as were the discs inside. Even if you put the discs in paper sleeves inside the old yellow shipping rings, that would better protect the discs than these amaray cases. They simply were not designed to take the beating of 40-80 pounds of film pounding against them during shipment.

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 10-19-2007, 02:52 PM:

And, I'll add MY .02 cents worth, too -- I, also, prefer the large circular carriers, not the amaray boxes. And, should there develop such a demand here that DTS actually pays attention to comments from us users (since Dan says the change to amaray wasn't particulary a "cost" issue), let's go back to those YELLOW ones (as previously illustrated), not the black ones that came along later.

Reason? It's easier to see. It calls attention to itself in the case, and (hopefully) reminds the projectionist, who is in the middle of dozens of tasks on shipping night, that the discs need to be put into those carriers.

As for the domestic vs. international shipping differences, that is a mere smokescreen for avoiding the issue. US prints are virtually ALWAYS circulated on reels, in shipping containers for such reels. Most overseas prints that I have seen are virtually always circulated on cores, in other types of containers. There is no "overlap" of commercially-circulating prints, in which some US depot services theatres in, say, Holland, or Australia. So, let the overseas depots determine how best to pack the discs, but definitely offer the large circular rings as one option, and we'll let you know if it's not working!

And, for older, "legacy" films, the title of the movie can be put on those yellow rings, immediately readable along with the film title (on the reels of film) when you open the shipping case. How handy can that be?

Gee, several persuasive reasons -- which means we'll probably never see it done. (Sorry, Dan, sometimes I/we get a bit cynical...)

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 10-21-2007, 06:00 PM:

Daniel.... I have complained many times to DTS about the awful treatment your product receives here in Australia and the answer is always (from DTS and others on this forum) that the problem is with the distributors not DTS. Currently I am playing WAR(Rogue Assassin) in analog because it is distributed by Hoyts. Their policy as told to me by a Hoyts representative is that Hoyts DOES NOT import DTS discs... ever! ICON also have this policy. The only ICON DTS I have ever had was for "We Were Soldiers" ..... and we finally got some discs imported specially for Apocalypto after we threatened to attempt to contact Mel Gibson directly to complain [Wink]

Also, when you do get discs from any distributor .... about 60% of the time it is after opening weekend for a film [Frown]

(Fox are worst for this)

What are you going to do about it Daniel?

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 10-21-2007, 08:08 PM:

Hi Matt,
You only have to wait a couple of months and you can run any feature with digital sound at home. You need a $300 system for guaranteed digital sound every time. The $20,000 jobs we have at the cinema won’t guarantee digital sound at any time.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-21-2007, 09:33 PM:

quote: Ron Curran
The $20,000 jobs we have at the cinema wonâ€™t guarantee digital sound at any time.

No, But the $85,000 dollar D-Cinema units that will be replacing your archaic film gear down the road will guarantee it.

Like I said in my post DTS complaints can go to: postproduction@dts.com

Mark

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 10-21-2007, 10:43 PM:

Mark, my point is that you don’t have to beg your dvd retailer/renter to give you digital sound with your image or akk him if the digital track has worn off.

While we are in the domestic domain, what is the difference between the decoders in home stuff and the ones inside the cinema boxes?

And yes, our cinema server plays digital sound every time, but in Australia most features will be coming on film for some time, particularly in sub run. So it would be nice to be playing it as it should be.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-22-2007, 08:43 AM:

There should be no difference except for the video board and error correction.

In the early days, I saw a demonstration of a Laser disc with Dolby Digital with a DA-10 Cinema box in the Dolby suite at Showest. The only change made was to bypass part of the acquisition circuitry. Louis

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 10-22-2007, 01:27 PM:

I suspect the Dolby Digital scheme isn't all that different between the 35mm version and the LaserDisc/DVD version. Obviously there are some advancements done with Dobly Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD, those are supposedly backward compatible.

CP650s with the EX board can also decode the Dolby Digital track from DVD with the proper hookup. A LaserDisc could also be played back through the CP650, provided you have an RF demodulator to convert the AC3-RF signal into a DD/PCM signal.

The DTS systems for home and cinema are completly different however.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 10-25-2007, 07:38 PM:

Well .... alas we are currently playing Saw 4 in analog ..... a movie I am sure that would make good use of surround for scaring the bejesus out of you [Wink]

Won't bother to ring dispatch .... it's distributed by Hoyts with their blanket 'we don't import DTS' policy..... [Mad]

Here's an interesting one though .... December Boys arrived with DTS discs ..... YES! An Aussie movie with DTS!!! WOW!! That young Harry Potter fellow must have some pull ..... Oh hang on .... no.... disc B is cracked ...... I'll just ring dispatch for another one .... oh .. wait ... no ... they forgot to put timecode on the print!!! Seems Harry put a confunding hex on the boys at the lab [Mad]

All kidding aside though .... I kid you not [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-26-2007, 12:29 AM:

quote: Blaine Young
The DTS systems for home and cinema are completly different however.

I sure hope so, since one costs about a hundred times as much as the other.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 10-26-2007, 12:53 AM:

Same here Matt No disc for Saw 4

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-26-2007, 03:36 AM:

"Saw IV" discs came to some theatres a few days before the release of this movie via DHL.

Prob that TECH didn't get the discs in time to put in the cans on shipment..

Posted by Markus Lemm (Member # 3456) on 10-26-2007, 01:16 PM:

Does anyone know what the cost is to the distributor to buy DTS discs? Do they pay per set of discs?

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 10-26-2007, 08:33 PM:

quote: Ron Curran
While we are in the domestic domain, what is the difference between the decoders in home stuff and the ones inside the cinema boxes?

For Dolby Digital once you get down to the AC-3 bit stream I think the DA-20 and CP-500 use the same Zoran chip that was used for home AC-3 decoding. The difference being that the cinema system runs at a lower bit rate. Everything prior to the bit stream is completely different from data aquisition to error correction.

DTS would be completely different because home DTS uses an entirely different codec from the cinema system.

With A LOT of modifications you could get a DVD Dolby Digital soundtrack to be decoded by a DA-10 or DA-20. You can't do anything with a DTS cinema player to get it to decode a DVD DTS soundtrack.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-27-2007, 11:26 AM:

quote: Markus Lemm
Does anyone know what the cost is to the distributor to buy DTS discs? Do they pay per set of discs?

At least in the beginning, DTS said that each set of disks cost about $100 which is why they originally weren't included in your print unless you actually had a DTS system. (That's the way it was in our area, at any rate.) I suppose that price included the production of the sound itself, not just the CDs, sort of accounting for the high price.

I think Technicolor initalized the idea of putting the disks in with each print no matter what.

Yes, the film company pays DTS for the disks and the distribution of them with the prints.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-27-2007, 03:27 PM:

My understanding is that dts can't charge a production more than Dolby, which puts them at a disadvantage since "unit cost" is always "1" with Dolby and an unknown number with dts. To their credit, dts has always made it happen when called, at least in the USA. Louis

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-28-2007, 09:05 AM:

Well I'm happy to say that we finally started getting disks for our prints. Maybe someone IS actually listening. Lets see if this continues.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-28-2007, 09:56 AM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
DTS said that each set of disks cost about $100 which is why they originally weren't included in your print unless you actually had a DTS system. (

And theatres that don't sent them back with the prints are not getting charged this amount plus a replacement fee because......?

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 10-30-2007, 10:01 PM:

Same reason some theatres never get charged for destroyed prints. I used to have to pick prints from a large complex to run at a theatre. Many times the prints were not playable. Sprocket holes ripped out, etc. "They" used the reversing projectors instead of re-winding. Distrib didn't even care anytime I raised a ruckas about this.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 10-30-2007, 11:21 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
And theatres that don't sent them back with the prints are not getting charged this amount plus a replacement fee because......?

Because you left out:

quote: Mike Blakesley
At least in the beginning

I'm not saying it's good that prints get sent back w/o discs but it sure seems like DTS isn't gonna charge people a $100 replacement fee when now the discs have a practically meaningless cost to them. The discs themselves likely are worth pennies to DTS.

And that could be another reason DTS switched away from sending discs in the "reel" shaped thing like they did in the past; they might see the reel as costing more money to make than simply sending replacements for the broken discs.

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 10-31-2007, 04:32 PM:

I've got a question for Daniel:

Is it possible for DTS when making their DTS trailer discs that each trailer code is in a folder for potential exhibitors to make their own? Working in the subrun industry, many times we don't play what comes in the cans cause, well, there aren't any. Along with that, many of the titles on the discs are to far out for us to use, or to far spread apart.

Here's my problem. This week we get the following movies in;
Underdog and Mr. Woodcock. Here are the trailer line ups for these titles out of what we have to play.

Underdog
Mr. Bean's Holiday
Final Season
Bee Movie

Mr. Woodcock
Rush Hour 3
The Comebacks
Fred Clause

Now generally we don't play trailers for movies that aren't released yet, but cause of the distributors being so anal about how many trailers go to a theatre, and when subruns are allowed to order and get materials, we are stuck with these choices.

Out of all the DTS trailer discs that I have saved, starting from June, and ending in October, there was only one that had most of the trailers for both these movies and that was July 6th's. If it were possible for DTS to store the Trailer information on the disc to be copied and burned to another disc so that we could mix and match the discs this would be extremely helpful.

Is there any hope for posting this and having something happen, or have I wasted my time?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-31-2007, 06:54 PM:

Thomas, you can do this one since the files on the disc are DOS files:

throw your discs in a computer and copy those trailer files in a created directory, plus all of the executable files from any one disc. Then, burn your own trailer disc with the needed files as long as the other files to make the disc run is on that burnt disc.

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 10-31-2007, 07:01 PM:

Monte,

There is nothing there but the following things.

DTS Folder
Preview Text Log
R14T4.AUD
R14TRLR Text Log
DTS EXE.

What am I missing to do this?

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 10-31-2007, 07:38 PM:

You can actually extract the trailer audio off the disc and compile your own. I do this every week on features that play in the house with a 2-drive DTS-6 unit. I copy the contents of the disc with the trailer reel (typically "A", but sometimes it's on "B" - like "The Kingdom"), extract out the 'attached trailers', and then 'splice' in the additional trailers extracted from other feature discs, or from the trailer disc. I then burn the new disc to a CDRW (I use TDK) and there you go. Next week, I repeat the process and reuse the same CDRW disc.

There is a program to do this under the "Manuals" section. You can also do a search under this forum for "How Do I Compile A Custom DTS Trailer Disc?" (forgive me - I can't figure out how to embed a thread link).

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-31-2007, 08:10 PM:

Hi again Thomas -

Here is that program that Blaine's talking about..

...and for Blaine: here is that embedded topic which also includes the above program for Thomas.

Also, thx for setting the story straight on how to make your own trailer discs from compilations of captured files.

- thx .. Monte

Posted by Markus Lemm (Member # 3456) on 11-02-2007, 03:33 PM:

Any feedback you guys have on my DTS Extractor program would be greatly appreciated. Any features you would like added would be nice to know as well.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 11-02-2007, 03:46 PM:

Markus, sent you a mail about the "continue disc" function adding the header to the file again, causing the 'offset' to be incorrect.

Posted by Andrew Maddison (Member # 4499) on 11-21-2007, 08:40 AM:

We (a student cinema in the UK) used to have problems getting any DTS discs with prints. We even had an argument with Buena Vista when we wanted to run Armageddon in DTS (we didn't have much of a choice in the matter because we were running the 70mm version!), and they kept telling us we'd be able to use the Dolby Digital track on the print. They didn't believe us when we told them there isn't any other sound format on a 70mm DTS print! Eventually, they sent some discs. Unfortunately they sent the 35mm DTS discs - and the 70mm print of Armageddon has a sound sync error on reel 1 meaning the sound is very very noticeably out of sync. A very nice person at DTS UK sent us a copy of the correct disc for reel 1 (and also sent us a 70mm DTS trailer, as no-one else in the UK had any stock!).

The problem has been reduced now that Deluxe have changed to plastic transit cases - there's a bit more space for a DTS disc case in the box, but they invariably arrive cracked with the discs scratched. The yellow piece of plastic used to be useless in the UK as Rank used green plastic transit cases that *only* had space for 6 reels (3 compartments carrying 2 reels each) and including the DTS disc carrier with a 6 reel film would have made the film require 2 transit cases. Nowadays there are red plastic expandable cases, and the yellow plastic carrier would work much better than the current "solution" - and as a previous poster said it would be a handy reminder to send the disc(s) back!

Personally, I'm not much of a fan of DTS - I don't know whether it's because of it being a 5 channel sound system (the sub being derived from the surround channels, leaving the surrounds a little tinny on occassion) or because of problems we've had running old films on it (we showed Jurassic Park a couple of years ago - it had the timecode on the print, and we got hold of the 6-channel DTS discs for it, and yet there's no way of convincing the 6D to play an old DTS title in DTS, whereas The Fugitive ran fine in Dolby Digital!).

PS - sorry that my first post on here is so long!!

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 11-21-2007, 02:46 PM:

5 channel sound system? What am I missing here?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-21-2007, 03:34 PM:

Richard: there is no subwoofer channel on dts. Louis

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 11-21-2007, 04:38 PM:

Thanks Louis. I can't believe I never knew that.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-21-2007, 04:51 PM:

Well, more accurately...there is no discrete subwoofer or surround channel on the theatrical 5.1 DTS system.

The subwoofer is convolved onto the Left-Surround and Right Surround channels. Upon playback, the Ls and Rs channels go though a filter to strip the subwoofer information off of them and feed them to the sub and keep the surrounds from blowing apart.

It is a shame that the system lives with this legacy to this day since the "SV" versions of the old players had the 6th decoder chip to handle 6-discrete channels and the XD-10 can handle 10-channels out of the box and 20-channels with an upgrade board (if they bothered to impliment it yet...seen many 20-channel films yet? [Wink]

).

Steve