Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: AW3 sticking feed arm

This is topic AW3 sticking feed arm in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007356

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 07-28-2005, 12:23 PM:

First of all, I've tried to explain this as best I can because I couldn't find the proper names for some of the parts I'm refering to in the manual.

We've got an AW3 (not AW3R) that on the bottom deck the finger on the end of the shaft for the feed arm, underneath the light filter, sticks.
It appears that it's catching the plastic hook on the inside of the return arm.
I'd have pics but I didn't have a camera last night.

Normally the "finger" on the feed arm shaft will just barely miss the plastic "finger" on the return arm when the feed arm is engaged.
When the return arm is engaged the plastic finger moves back and catches the one on the shaft and moves the filter in the opposite direction for takeup.

What it appears is happening though is that the two fingers won't clear each other.
It's almost as if there's not enough clearance.
What's odd is that I can't see anything bent or tweaked and it was previously okay.
I had two days off, came back, and it was creeping because the feed arm couldn't move all the way back to zero, it had been forced onto the backside of the return arm "finger" and couldn't move back.
But as I said, it should clear the tip of it, just barely.
The projectionist running on my days off said he had absolutely no problems with it however.

What gives?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-28-2005, 12:50 PM:

Sounds like the other operator had a bad load and pulled that roller arm all the way to the tower then did something to the brain at the same time. Take out the arm assembly to see if there were any damage to the finger, then reinstall to see if this clears up the problem somehow. I've had that happen before-by taking the arm assembly out and reinstalling the arm somehow clears up the catch.

Is something catching on the filter dic? The disc could be snagging on that finger, thus might have to be raised a touch (have to take out the sensor on this one..)

-Monte

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 07-28-2005, 01:37 PM:

quote: Monte L. Fulmer
Sounds like the other operator had a bad load and pulled that roller arm all the way to the tower then did something to the brain at the same time. Take out the arm assembly to see if there were any damage to the finger, then reinstall to see if this clears up the problem somehow. I've had that happen before-by taking the arm assembly out and reinstalling the arm somehow clears up the catch.

Is something catching on the filter dic? The disc could be snagging on that finger, thus might have to be raised a touch (have to take out the sensor on this one..)

I did take it out, everything looks just fine.
Unless it got thrown away, which I don't see why it would've been I should have another return arm assy to try out tonight.

I thought it may have just been poorly aligned but it seems to be perfectly fine height-wise.
It's only catching by about 2mm or so but no matter what it won't separate enough.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-28-2005, 02:57 PM:

Remove the brain (leaving only the stem that the payout arm mounts to).

Remove the deck.

Loosen the 4 screws that mount the axle to the arm.

Jiggle around the axle and retighten. Test before you reinstall the brain or deck, spin the stem to simulate payout and also pull the takeup arm to simulate takeup. Maneuver the axle around until you get it so they are both working.

Tip - sometimes you have to tighten 3 of the 4 bolts down tightly and make that 4th bolt only barely snug.

Tip - there is also an allen screw at the end of the takeup's arm that bumps up against the black arm on the light filter you can adjust outward a little bit.

Tip - sometimes you must slightly maneuver the takeup arm's assembly in conjunction with the axle.

(Something in this post will fix your problem. I've seen it many times before.)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-28-2005, 07:24 PM:

Yesterday I had an AW-3 that had a slightly warpped light shutter in the feed finger shaft. The plastic shutter was just barely rubbing on top of where the take up arm pivots. Just raising the shutter up very slightly gave enough clearance to make it work properly. Almost all of the AW-3's that I encounter for the first time still have too much tension on the P.O. return spring. It needs to be set for Estar to feed out properly!!!!!!!

I've also seen the following cause sticking feed fingers on AW-3's.......

1. Grease that has worked down from the axel to the plastic bushing at the bottom of the axel assy. Have seen this many times. Dam, that Lubriplate crap sucks [Mad]

!

2. Dried up grease in the top ball bearing for the feed finger shaft. Replace the bearing, don't try to re-lubricate it. Its only a few bucks.....

3. The plate that mounts on the P.O. head next to the rollers could be loose. Saw this yesterday too.

3. The feed finger bracket could be bent, especially if the P.O. head is removable and has been dropped. Or if you have had many P.O. head wraps.

4. Damaged feed shaft return spring. That hair fine curley spring in there..... It can't be made right if its bent no matter what... so just replace it!

If one of Brads tips don't help perhaps one of these will......

BTW: Brad, I've never had to just slightly tighten one of the axel housing bolts to get things working right. If everything in there clears what its right next to and the bearings and bushing are good then it has to work right. I've seen quite a few warpped / rubbing light shutters over the years too.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-28-2005, 07:27 PM:

That trick came about when converting stationary payout axles to removable payout axles. Things didn't *quite* line up just right, but loosening one bolt did the trick. (Not always the same bolt from axle to axle.) Sounds weird, but everything was clearing as best as I could tell and a slight loosening made it all work perfectly.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-28-2005, 11:06 PM:

(just like centering a seal kit for a Simplex..leave the screws loose, then put on the sprocket, then move the seal around to center around the sprocket, then tighten...in a "star" form to evenly tighten down things...like changing a tire....)

I can see doing the same with the stud axle plate - leaving all four bolts lightly snug, shift things around till it finds "home" then rotate bolt tightening pattern.

But, if Brad's method works, then it works that way as well ....

Wow, good ol auto mechanics when bolting down heads....

-Monte

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-29-2005, 04:10 AM:

quote: Dominic Espinosa
What it appears is happening though is that the two fingers won't clear each other.

If shifting the axle ass'y. around doesn't work, replace the white nylon "hook". Those curl inward as they age.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 07-29-2005, 05:50 AM:

Brad, I tried just about everything in your post previously.
I ended up swapping out the plastic hook and the part that bolts to the arm and magically it worked.
I didn't have time today to compare all the parts so I'll check them all for warpage and see if I can't find the problem.
It's just weird that it would happen all of a sudden for no reason though...

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-29-2005, 08:43 AM:

A while back, somebody in a booth I serviced got the happy idea that it would be easier to move prints if they removed the whole deck, print and all, instead of simply clamping the print or putting it on a "Pizza Board".

There are three washers on the center spindle, underneath the platter. There are two different thickness flat washers and one funky looking roller bearing.

If you aren't careful to get those washers back in place upon reinstalling the deck all sorts of nasty things like this will happen! Least of which, the platter will see a LOT more wear and tear simply from the stress of removing and replacing the deck. IF you don't get the thing back together the right way the center spindle will slowly grind itself into a fine black powder!

There isn't anybody in your booth doing this, is there?

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 07-29-2005, 01:45 PM:

Randy, there most certainly is not anyone doing that in our booth.
I'm the only one who movies prints and I clamp and carry, no matter how tight they are, always clamp.
In addition we have stationary centerfeeds. They'd have to take the brain off (all 3 rollers and 4 screws) to get the disc off.

I can't see however how doing that would affect the clearances of the inner components.

Incidentally, I think one of our platter systems came from a house that was moving prints like that as one has 2 worn spindles for no reason.

Moving prints like that is dumb.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-29-2005, 02:04 PM:

quote: Dominic Espinosa
I ended up swapping out the plastic hook and the part that bolts to the arm and magically it worked.

It's the nylon hook.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-29-2005, 08:07 PM:

quote: Dominic Espinosa
Moving prints like that is dumb.

Agreed!! Still some people think it's right.
I wasn't necessarily suggesting that you used this procedure. I was just checking.

Removing the platter and reinstalling it can cause a misalignment of parts all through the center spindle of the platter from bending of the bolts and such. What really screws things up is if those three afformentioned washer/bearings aren't put back in place... AND in the right order... the platter won't be at the right height. That can wreak all sorts of havoc, including bending/breaking of the little metal shaft that goes down to the filter card. If that happens you will get misalignment of the internal parts like you see and it will be virually impossible to get things right until you replace all the parts.

However, if you have non-removable brains the question is moot.

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 07-29-2005, 11:33 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
A while back, somebody in a booth I serviced got the happy idea that it would be easier to move prints if they removed the whole deck, print and all, instead of simply clamping the print or putting it on a "Pizza Board".

That happened at a theatre near here but they weren't so lucky as to make sure the washers all stayed in... Many problems did occur. lol

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 07-30-2005, 04:25 AM:

Well, the decks do come off once a year for service.
I degrease and relube the bearings and everything annually.
I've yet to see a problem relating to any misalignments on the part of the roller bearings.

Tim was right. It was that nylon hook. Just slightly stretched.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-30-2005, 11:27 AM:

That donut shaped bearing needs very little grease, if it needs any at all. Too much grease will make it clog up with gunk. Then the gunk gets ground into the bearing because the grease holds it there.

The best way to treat them is to wipe them with a clean cloth and inspect for wear. If, after cleaning, they still have good grease/lube on them just put them back and leave them alone.

And, I'm sure you're aware of this, Dominic, but it bears repeating: Make dod-gamm sure you get the bearings and spacers back back in place the right way! If you don't, you'll be in a world of shit, later on, down the road!

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 07-30-2005, 12:24 PM:

So far, so good.
Thanks for the advice guys.