Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Aerated Oil

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Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 08-01-2005, 03:57 AM:

The oil in one of my Simplex 35's becomes very aerated after a month or so.I have another Simplex which i use the same oil in and it's fine.This problem only started to happen several months ago.What could be causing this?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-01-2005, 05:43 AM:

Is the source of the oil the same? Have bearings in one of the machines been changed recently?

(At some point in the past, I had all oils analyzed. At that time, Simplex oil was approx. 10% varnish; an attempt to stop leaks.)

Louis

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 08-01-2005, 07:00 AM:

Hi Louis
I'm using the same oil (not Simplex) out of the same container for both machines. The one that is aerating the oil is due to have bearings changed very soon-it has a noisy shutter shaft bearing.

Posted by Janne Salminen (Member # 3162) on 08-05-2005, 06:07 AM:

Hi !

I've seen that on a couple of our projectors. It does not seem to have any effect on how well the projector is lubricated.
I don't really have an explanation why it happens, but it could be because of the oil pump. The cogwheel might be mixing small bubbles of air into the oil. I haven't noticed any connection between the condition of the bearings and these bubbles.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-05-2005, 07:34 AM:

Ian is te angle of the machine the same compared to the oil level in the sump If the angle is steep I have seen the pump suck air with the oil causing bubles also is the one that has foam in it using a large lamp as I have also noticed if the machine is hot running that shows up

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-05-2005, 02:42 PM:

I have four Mil2000's that the oil bubbles up during the run. One machine is using a 2.5k lamp and the others are just the 2k variety.

Oil levels are fine in all of these machines. I don't worry about the bubbling as long as these machines are getting their necessary lube (yet, I get a little curious on why some bubble and some don't) even after a recent oil change and screen/sump cleanout.

-Monte

Posted by Dave Callaghan (Member # 1544) on 08-05-2005, 11:38 PM:

Apart from the appearance - I gather aerated simply means small air bubbles in the oil as it comes out of the tube - is there an operational problem?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-06-2005, 03:26 AM:

could possibly be that the pump gear is "whipping" the oil - as I've noticed on some machines. Look towards the lower front of the case when looking inside the geartrain unit and you'll see the main gear drive that meshes with the oil pump actually "slinging" the oil towards the front of the case. Could also be that the sump is too full of oil, or an oil change is needed.

-Monte

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-06-2005, 11:52 AM:

I'm going to guess that it's the oil pump sucking air.

Can you tell if the intake line/strainer is completely submerged in the oil at all times? Check to see that it's installed correctly or that the line isn't bent. It might have a hole in it or the compression fitting that holds it onto the pump intake might not be tight enough. It may even be due to there not being quite enough oil in the projector. (Not really likely, though. Just spitballing.)

There is a modification to the oil pump mounting orientation that can be made if the projector is installed at an upward angle. In my old manual (for the PR-1003) it's called the "Drive-In Theater Modification". Basically, you flip the thing the other way 'round so that the intake is under the oil level at all times.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-06-2005, 06:05 PM:

(At some point in the past, I had all oils analyzed. At that time, Simplex oil was approx. 10% varnish; an attempt to stop leaks.)

I have to laugh at that Louis and I'd like to agree. Not sure what oil you had analyzed but the Simplex oil from Strong we had analyzed a while back has almost no additives in it at all. The "varnish" you talk about is the result of the oil evaporating and is not something that is actually added to the oil itself. This "varnish" forms quiclky on idle machines which have sit in a hot or dry environment.... the oil evaporates leaving the varnish deposit. This is one major reason why everyone shuld be using Synthetics... varnishing just plain doesn't happen with them.

quote: Randy Stankey
I'm going to guess that it's the oil pump sucking air.

Thats a basic design flaw with the Simplex, its design intention was to be an "oil mnist" type mechanism but a simple mist wouldn't get you much life from the movement!. There is barely enough oil for the mechanism even with the seal kits installed. The old level of 3 ounces or so is increased to 6 to 8 ounces but thats still really very little oil. All other oil bath projectors I can think of utilize at least a pint of oil minimum and don't have the foaming problem as a result.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-07-2005, 02:18 AM:

Yep, there must be that healthy continual stream coming out of the tube above the slinger and a good healthy stream heading down to the INTermittent assembly and between the end frame and flywheel, to where one can see oil being forced out of the two drainage holes in the rear case of the INTermittent assembly above the flywheel drive gear.

Drip, drip,drip oiling doesn't do the trick...

Course, the big trick is to have the assembly in center position where one can read "FRAME" almost horizontal across the knob (or the "T" in the close horizontal position of the Mils and Apogees..), thus, the assembly is receiving the most oil from the drain tube.

I instruct my operators of this important procedure. Ain't no fun having to rebuild intermittent assemblies due to lack of oil. Yet, I'm glad that I can do such a repair task-quite special thing to do.

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2005, 11:40 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Ain't no fun having to rebuild intermittent assemblies due to lack of oil.

Monte,

Normally these days its because there is a lack of any projectionists with actual brains....

Mark

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-07-2005, 12:19 PM:

Replacing a $2,000.00 intermittent for lack of 20¢ worth of oil! [Mad]

I got an emergency call from a theater one day, telling me that the projector "didn't work". After several minutes of trying to decipher what "doesn't work" meant I determined that the intermittent had frozen up. That meant I had a 13 hour drive ahead of me!

I had a good idea of what happened even before I walked in the door. But, my suspicions were confirmed when I opened up the back of the Simplex 1030 and found it bone dry.

It's a lucky thing I had a spare on hand, in the trunk of my car. The last time I replaced one I ordered two. (Why buy one when you can have two at twice the price? [Wink]

) It didn't take me long to do the replacement.

I went outside to get my tools and I stopped the "User-B" on my way out. "How long has it been since anybody put oil in the projectors?" His answer?... C'Mon... Guess... "I dunno."
I told him to go around and make sure every projector had oil in it by the time I was done with my work. I figured he'd take 10 minutes to go down the line with an oil can. He'd have PLENTY of time.

When I got done, I walked over to the next machine and looked. No oil! The next one? None! I walked over to the bench where he was sitting, grabbed him by the shirt sleeve and towed him over to the tool cabinet. I put an oil can into his hand and towed him over to the nearest machine. "I want you to put OIL into EVERY projector! RIGHT NOW!!", I hollered.

With a "Harumph!" he took the oil can from projector to projector and put a couple squirts in each one while I followed him to be sure.

What an ignoranus! (Stupid at both ends!)

That's probably the last time those poor projectors ever had a good oiling! [Mad]

[ 08-07-2005, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Randy Stankey ]

Posted by Dieter Depypere (Member # 3184) on 08-07-2005, 04:23 PM:

Quite an unbelievable story. I mean what kind of projectionists are those who don't check the oil level!? I guess those projectors weren't cleaned well either. Such morons should not be allowed to touch a projector *anymore*.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-07-2005, 08:12 PM:

In one theatre I was so sure that they were NEVER oiled, I drew a circle around the oil can after putting a small folded note (like a fortune cookie) under it. 14 months later when the next intermittent seized; I challenged the manager to show me logs when the projectors were oiled. "Move the oil can, I said" when they did a small note fluttered out from the bottom of the oil can with a date 14 months ago: The answer: NEVER. I had been the one who oiled them last. (Best argument for regular service.)

Louis

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-07-2005, 09:01 PM:

uh,oh - we can take this oil thing to a new extreme of a "you suck" thread....

I bet we can fill up 40 plus pages just of stories about booth bozos an circuit operations.

..these idiots don't deserve to have the title of "projectionsits" rendered on them. For they don't know what that really is.

...sad....

-Monte

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 08-07-2005, 09:14 PM:

We have 3 simplex 35 machines and the oil has the same little bubbles you guys speak of. I never really thought much about it since I keep the level of oil right where it should be. Then I noticed that the oil level isnt really "level", our machines are tilted quite a bit I guess. My question is, how bad would it be to put a little more oil in the unit (assuming the pump is sucking some air because of the tilt), or is there something else that can be done, or don't I even need to worry about it. How often should the oil be changed if there are air bubbles in it?? sooner?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-07-2005, 09:38 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
In one theatre I was so sure that they were NEVER oiled, I drew a circle around the oil can after putting a small folded note (like a fortune cookie) under it. 14 months later when the next intermittent seized; I challenged the manager to show me logs when the projectors were oiled. "Move the oil can, I said" when they did a small note fluttered out from the bottom of the oil can with a date 14 months ago: The answer: NEVER. I had been the one who oiled them last. (Best argument for regular service.)

Good trick. After it has been used once, do you have other tricks like that? Attaching a hair at the back of the can, as I learned from a spy handbook for kids, in that case to tell whether a door has been opened, might be another good idea.
The Kinoton oil cans are plastic and semi-transparent. You can mark the oil level and date on them with a felt pen. You could get similar containers for other oils and do the same. Of course, you don't know if they just pour it into the toilet then...

quote: Dieter Depypere
Quite an unbelievable story. I mean what kind of projectionists are those who don't check the oil level!? I guess those projectors weren't cleaned well either. Such morons should not be allowed to touch a projector *anymore*.

That is quite common here in Los Estados Unidos. The general work ethic of employees is by far the worst I have ever come across anywhere. Most people here just want to make it through the day doing as little as humanly possible. The word "initiative" or what it stands for is absolutely unknown. You have to babysit them and supervise them very closely, otherwise nothing gets done. You even have to demonstrate people here how to use a cloth or rug for basic cleaning, otherwise they will just claim "this has never been shown to me"...
In several cases, I wrote very detailed cleaning instructions and demonstrated what they actually mean. The next time I came back to the location, the instructions had mysteriously disappeared from the wall I had pinned them to, and from the projection folder in which I had filed a copy, and the same employees who I had personally trained told me they had never heard of these instructions.
You would think that this would have some consequences for the employees. Not really. You have to document everything in painstaking detail to prove that they didn't do their work properly. Because as lazy as many of them are, as sensitive they are and to a high degree resistent to constructive criticism. This creates a lot of paperwork and wastes a lot of time. A basic understanding of "you come here to work, so you work during the time you are here" is completely beyond most of the "work force".

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 08-07-2005, 10:13 PM:

I couldnt agree more. Some how, I can't seem to explain why it just isnt right that some of the KIDS bring in cell phones, comic books and video games. Why even leave the house!?!? Just stay home and let someone who WANTS to be here..come in and work.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-07-2005, 10:24 PM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
That is quite common here in Los Estados Unidos. The general work ethic of employees is by far the worst I have ever come across anywhere. Most people here just want to make it through the day doing as little as humanly possible. The word "initiative" or what it stands for is absolutely unknown. You have to babysit them and supervise them very closely, otherwise nothing gets done.

I've been in the US workforce full-time since 1975 (1972 if you count military service) and I've never seen general work attitudes even REMOTELY that bad. Yeah, there's always deadwood in any large organization, and those losers stick out like a sore thumb. Those people disappear during layoffs and other "re-orgs".

I've never worked in a theater though.

If someone is that bad, why are they still there, especially if you're in an "at-will employment" state? They're lazy? They're incompetent? Get rid of them and get someone else.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-08-2005, 12:30 AM:

That's not remotely as easy as it looks. "Employment at will"? Haha. California is "Sue at will". We fire people because they didn't do their work, the next day they show up with an attorney claiming they hurt their back. People are let go because they missed their shifts three times within a month, the next day their parents call and demand to speak to the CEO, hinting that something terrible and deforming has been done to their beloved children. I don't have much to do with the HR stuff, but I have sat in the office and witnessed our staff's ears chewed off to the bone about stuff like that. All the time.
Companies are afraid because employees have so many handles to tie them up in litigation over nothing. I see so many examples of our people not doing their work when I tour our theaters, but I would literally need a full time secretary just to document all that. With very few people, you can actually sit down and have a mature talk of the "OK, you made a mistake, but let me show you how it goes, and then everything is forgotten" sort. No, you ask them how the equipment actually broke, and after denying that they worked that day, you show them the documentation, then it dawns on them that they did actually work - the day before yesterday, that long ago -, and then they take off becuase they really don't feel comfortable about the situation and this conversation.

Dave, you haven't worked in the theatre industry? Well, I haven't worked in other industries here, but I have a feeling it can't be that different in lower level jobs in other places. Have you ever shopped at the HomeDepot and tried to find one of the employees?

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 08-08-2005, 12:34 AM:

I'm sure it's a regional thing Dave. Many coastal SoCalians are too laid back for their own good, especially when the sun's shining and the surf's up (hint: all the time in SoCal, at least when the marine layer isn't in). We get the same attitude here in the desert too. It's tough to find good help, especially at present theater floor and booth wages. They're out there, but ya gotta look hard.

Back on thread, I've seen oil foam up in aircraft engines when they're running too hot--the anti-foaming additives break down and allow the oil molecules to shear, leading to foam and further molecular breakdown. So I wonder if some of those intermittents are just beginning to run hot.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-08-2005, 12:41 AM:

course, Simplex and compatible oil is basically a non-detergent based oil anywho....

Maybe, it's just plain time for oil changes to occur when units are foaming...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2005, 02:07 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
The answer: NEVER. I had been the one who oiled them last. (Best argument for regular service.)

Also a good arguement to install seal kits on Simplex's if they don't have them. A Simplex can just hold enough oil for about a year with the seal kit on it.

Mark

Posted by Dieter Depypere (Member # 3184) on 08-08-2005, 03:46 AM:

quote: Frank Dubrois
My question is, how bad would it be to put a little more oil in the unit (assuming the pump is sucking some air because of the tilt), or is there something else that can be done, or don't I even need to worry about it.

On our Philips FP 6, if the tilt is high (more than 20°), the manual claims to put in more oil. I would suggest get a manual and read.

quote: Michael Schaffer
That is quite common here in Los Estados Unidos.

I am just not able to believe that I am sorry... How about car engines, do THEY get enough oil? I suppose not.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-08-2005, 04:07 AM:

That is what I encounter every day. And apparently it's not just like that around here. Colleagues from other parts tell me exactly the same.
Why should I make that up? Actually, I find your reply very offending.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2005, 07:44 AM:

quote: Dieter Depypere
On our Philips FP 6, if the tilt is high (more than 20°), the manual claims to put in more oil. I would suggest get a manual and read.

Well Dieter,

The FP-6 is a VERY well designed projector and Phillips already had decades of experience with oil bath machines by then, On the other hand the X-L was the first(and only) oil bath machine for Simplex. Also keep in mind that the FP series by Phillips is really good stuff and hardly the pile of leaky potmetal that the Simplex is.

Mark

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 08-08-2005, 04:41 PM:

So Mark, what would your suggestion be? Would adding a little more oil be OK? I'm sure it wouldnt hurt anything if we added some extra oil and watched it for a bit. If it still had bubbles then would you suggest more oil or just let it go? I dont want to damage our machines using to much oil, at the same time, I dont want the bubbles to cause premature wear either.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-08-2005, 05:05 PM:

Moving fascinating discussion about at-will employment over here

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2005, 06:51 PM:

quote: Frank Dubrois
Would adding a little more oil be OK?

Well, If you have the seal kits on your 35's then you can add quite a bit of oil. In fact the more the better in a Simplex, but not so high that its up over the framer shaft as thats a leak spot. And no.... the bubbles really don't matter all that much as long as the machine keeps on oiling constantly.

I once went on a call where the theatre manager felt he had overfilled the machine a "tad bit". When I saw the oil half way up the gear cover window it was all I couod do to contain my laughter! Amazingly the machine hadn't leaked a drop of oil and I emptied out a quart and a half to get it back down to where it SHOULD be...... they say it was like this for at least several weeks before the owner of the small chain noticed something odd looking about that machine and called for service. And there are those fools that think the seal kit doesn't even work [Roll Eyes]

.

Mark

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 08-08-2005, 06:54 PM:

These units are 1 year old. Are the seal kits something else we'd have to get and install? Or is there a way to tell if our machines already have the kit. I'm just not that familiar with simplex's to know..

Thanks

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2005, 10:02 PM:

Nope, yours should have them from the factory. Just don't fill it half way up the gear window though [Eek!]

.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-08-2005, 10:45 PM:

I just did a small service work on a Mil2000 (checking for lower bearing noise in that vertical shaft with the back being off) and this machine bubbles the oil pretty good-even from a cold start and let run for a few seconds.

The oil was changed about 2months ago and remembering this thread, I checked out the oil's viscosity and I've noticed that the thickness was rather thin-almost like water (kinda like a "0" weight to an "5" weight). Yet, this oil came from the stock Simplex can - not by CPI or any other manufacturer.

Maybe the bubbling comes from the viscosity itself not by air entering the system.

One of the obvious tricks with the seal kits if you have leakage coming from within the belt sprocket, leakage from around the sprocket, or the gasket itself. The seal will wear a groove around the sprocket's outer shaft - and find out which kind of belt you use - either the square tooth variety, or the round tooth variety when ordering the replacement kit.

-Monte

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 08-09-2005, 12:54 PM:

We have a loud projector too, although the noise seems to be coming from the intermittent. The noise started about 3 months after installation and we were told it was normal. I disagree. We have the Simplex 35 millenium. The noise comes from what appears to be the operators side near or at the intermittent. Is this common? suggestions? I am used to working with the Christies and dont look forward to digging into an oily mess.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-09-2005, 01:41 PM:

If those Mil2000s are only 3 months old and you have intermittent noise, that's a warranty concern. Check with your tech/installer for such information. Don't rip into a machine that new.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-09-2005, 10:20 PM:

A noisy intermittent on a new projector is a tough call. Just because it makes SOME noise doesn't necessarily mean it's going to blow up. On the other hand, it might just puke on you right in the middle of your next show. I'd have to hear it to know for sure.

Assuming everything else is okay:

If it makes a ticking sound while running at regular speed but the picture is steady you're probably OK. It will likely go away as the projector breaks in.

If it makes a "Ka-Chunk! Ka-Chunk! Ka-Chunk!" sound as it's slowing down at the end of a show, I'd keep an eye on it. It's the sign of a problem brewing. An intermittent that does this could run for years with no problems but it could suddenly shit the bed, too.

If it makes a "Rattle! Rattle!" or a "Clack! Clack!" sound while running at speed or if the picture becomes unsteady, YOU'VE GOT TROUBLE! Get it fixed now and it will save you a whole lot of trouble down the road. If the intermittent freezes up on you in mid show it WILL do film damage and it will POSSIBLY tear the livin' shit out of your gears. Depending on the make of the projector, it's a virtual certainty that you'll need new belts.

If its only 3 months old, take advantage of your warranty now. If it blows up on you after the warranty period the powers-that-be will ask, "If you knew it was going bad, why didn't you do something sooner!?"

Now, you ARE only 3 months into the warranty period so you still have time to consider your gambit: Will the problem go away as the projector breaks itself in? Or, will it get worse? I would monitor it closely. If it doesn't get better in a short time, get it fixed.

Keep records!! Be anal about it!!
Send a memo to your boss! Be sure you are RELIGIOUS about keeping that machine (and all the others) clean and oiled. Sign and date EVERYTHING! Make copies of everything and keep the dupes in a safe place. If that machine bites the dust... when it does... your ass will be covered. IF there's a question of WHO was responsible and WHY it didn't get fixed, it won't be your head that's on the chopping block.

Quite the contrary. You COULD save your company thousands of dollars!

* Cost of new intermittent = $2,000.00 ($1,000.00 for a rebuilt one.)

* Cost of other parts = anywhere from $100.00 to $1,000.00

* Paying a tech to repair it = $40.00/hr + travel. (Likely several hundred dollars.)

* Minimum down time of 1-3 days. (Average ticket price X the number of admissions lost.) = EASLILY a couple-few thousand!

* Loss of concessions = your theater's per-cap X the number of lost admissions.

* Loss of "Goodwill" with your customers. (Incalculable!)

Remember when I said, "$2,000.00 intermittent for lack of 20¢ worth of oil."? Add up all those things and you COULD be talking more like $5,000.00!

If you blow up an intermittent due of lack of attention on your part, don't come crying to me when your boss comes to tell you he has to cut payroll and takes a day off your schedule!

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 08-09-2005, 11:55 PM:

Frank,
I would suggest getting a tech who is familiar with simplexes to come and look at it. If it is a problem with the machine, it should be fixed under warranty, assuming the projector was new from the factory, and not possibly from a dealers used stock. If the tech says, "no, that is normal", then you've only burned a little money! Do you have more than 1 simplex?

Just my .02
Rick

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 08-10-2005, 02:05 AM:

yes we do have more than one, and the others are not making that noise. Its a loud clicking noise as the intermittant goes around. it IS loud enough to be heard a few rows down inside the auditorium. I did tell the boss and the boss's boss. Nothing has been done. Usually if I dont keep on top these things, they get forgotten. Anyone know off hand how long a warranty for a new simplex 35 millenium is? I have looked at this several times and cant really pinpoint WHY its making the sound..they have always had oil. It sounds like its really coming from the operators side of the projector, but without being able to take the back piece off while the proj is running, I cant really tell. Like I said, I just dont know much about these Simplexes yet. Would a dab of oil somewhere around the intermittant help any? I've used projectors in the past that like a drop of oil to the intermittant. not sure if these are the same. I'm trying to locate our manuals for these units to do some readin up.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-10-2005, 02:51 AM:

Warranties on Simplexes are for a year after purchase.

Sounds like the assembly (like the movement cover) isn't properly aligned and the cam isn't entering into the starwheel at the exact point and causing the ticking (which is warranty stuff-leave alone).

Is the ticking noise with the shoe assembly closed on the sprocket, or open. If closed, the teeth of the sprocket is ticking against the shoe assembly, in which the sprocket is out of alignment with both shoes. The outboard edge of the sprocket should be flush with the flat side of the outer shoe. This is where the sprocket can be loosen up and slid over the shaft to make that edge of the sprocket be flush with the shoe-then retighten up the bolt and nut assembly.

Is the oil pump delivering the oil properly and is there a good spray in the back? Units, especially movements not getting the proper oiling will be noisy as well. If the oil is just "drip,drip,drip" out of the delivery tube above the slinger, then the movement is running pretty well dry (meaning the pump filter screen is plugged good and needs to be taken out an cleaned..).

-Monte

Posted by Mike Pennell (Member # 1692) on 08-10-2005, 05:32 AM:

Mark, what's the part number for the seal kit and what is it comprised of? [beer]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-10-2005, 06:23 AM:

Intermittents should not make ANY noise. Run in should be performed at the factory. If yours makes noise, it is NOT a "pristine, factory new product." Most of the discussion above has concerned itself with "placing or avoiding responsibility."

Given that not all factory intermittents are quiet; it is someone's judgement call as to try again with another which may or may not be quiet.

BTW: run in in NOT a month-long afair unless something is wrong. In the best of cases it could be a few seconds; in the worst, a few hours.

Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-10-2005, 08:23 AM:

Louis is exactly correct on that, no noise should be heard at all. The biggest problem with the antiquated X-L movement is that the outer bearing is still a piece of crap oilite bushing. Sometimes this bushing runs dry or the end cap is set too tight against it and then it makes quite a bit of noise. Put a couple of drops of oil in the area where that end cap meets the bushing and then turn the machine over by hand to let the oil work in, then let sit for 5 to 10 minuites to let it really work in and then run a show and see if things are any quieter than before.

When I rebuild X-L movements I always install a new outer bushing and I machine an oil sink into it so they can be easily oiled on a regular basis and so that the oil will actually go into the porus oilite material. In reality that bushing should be replaced with something a bit more up to date.

Mike,

You'd have to call our ofice, 801-355-1250 and ask to talk to Vince about that kit, or call Stong, 1-800-424-1215. Pricing is different on each kit depending on what sound head you have, of course we discount our pricing though. The kit includes a new bearing retainer flange with seal pressed in place in that flange, a new frive pulley/gear that has the O.D. ground where the seals lip rides, the correct spacers for the drive gear/pulley, new hardware and a teflon washer to seal the end of the shaft inside the gear by the retaining nut. Installation is less than 30 minuites. When you install it place the new retainer on the machine and leave that retaining hardware loose. Then install the new drive pulley/gear but be sure to put some oil on the O.D. of the gear first. Then put the gear on being careful to make sure that the key also slides in place properly. Then tighten up the bearing retainer hardware and then the gear/pulley retaining hardware. Doing it in this manner with the gear already on the shaft guarantees that the seal is properly centered as much as is possible. I generally don't install the included O-rings onto the framer shaft as Strong has not done that part of the mod correctly..... sometimes those 5 cent O-rings will extrude out of place and then you have a big oil leak... the dam fools were too cheap to machine in a 30% depth groove for the O-rings to seat into.... stick with the flat seals if thats whats on your machine already, they actually work better.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-10-2005, 12:51 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
machine an oil sink into it so they can be easily oiled on a regular basis

Yo, Marko - With a lot of us running these "pot metal boat anchors", could the lot of us do this retrofit on those bearing collars so we could oil them and what would be the trick in doing this..(if possible, for I was wondering about how would it be easy, outside of dripping oil between the collar and bearing..)

thx-Monte

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 08-10-2005, 02:27 PM:

Monte, the intermittant makes teh same noise whether the show is open or closed, thats the first thing I thought of. The projector is spraying a very generous amount of oil, so there doesnt seem to be a problem there. Sounds like its a bad assembly job then.

In other news, I have found out that this (along with one other) projector is NOT under warranty. The new units are working fine. So...being out of warranty...is this a project that can be attempted by someone not intimately knowledgable with Simplexes?? I'd like to learn more about these, but wouldnt want to jump into something that is extremely complex.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-10-2005, 05:06 PM:

quote: Frank Dubrois
So...being out of warranty...is this a project that can be attempted by someone not intimately knowledgable with Simplexes??

It really all depends how mechanically and tech minded one can be to understand the complexity of delicate and absolute inner workings of any machine.

STRONG has a repair/exchange program that you can check into. Call up 1-402-453-4444 and ask for this info.

-Monte

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-10-2005, 05:46 PM:

Of all the projectors, the Simplex "XL" is the easiest to overhaul; however, as stated above it is another matter to do it well.

My company(Hadden Theatre Supply)also does this work. Our fully rebuilt Simplex intermittents were installed at Universal in the quality control room for the "Grinch."

Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-03-2005, 10:30 AM:

We have been testing a new oil recently based on reccomendations from Chevron. Its called GST oil and is available in the same ISO weights as Capella and other normally used oils for Simlpex and Century and ohers. This oil is working remarkably well and doesn't exhibit the high foaming levels that Capella and other oils do. Its also one of the purest oils I've ever worked with in these ISO weights.... its so clear that when glancing at the the sight glass it look like the projector is filled with water. All that this oil contains as an additive is an anti-rust inhibitor and nothing else at all. On X-L's that had a tiny bit of clicking noise in the movement that noise all but disappears after an hour or so of running with GST oil.

BTW: GST oil is basically a high speed turbine oil that was formulated for power plant turbines and maritime use in ships reduction gearing so obviously its an excellent oil and it also has a very very long life, far longer than any of the Capellas. GST is also approved for limited non-contact food service use which tells me that its also not as dangerous an oil to handle as Capella is.

Has anyone else out there used this oil in projectors yet???
GST OIL

LINK -2

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-03-2005, 12:18 PM:

Mark: we once used OC-30 oil. I believe the GST is what we have sold the last 8-10 years after OC-30 was de listed. The oil is so clear that you can peer down into a 55 gallon drum and see writing on the drum bottom. One intermittent overhaul shop buys oil
from us and was VERY unhappy with the oil. His concern is that it took too long to run in intermittents with our oil. He went back to Simplex oil, with my blessings.

Also we package oil in bottles that look a lot like those Chlorox uses. The metal cans are expensive, damage easily, and don't pour well. They are, however, less likely to cause trouble in a fire, if that is a concern.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-03-2005, 12:44 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
One intermittent overhaul shop buys oil
from us and was VERY unhappy with the oil. His concern is that it took too long to run in intermittents with our oil.

That fact tells me that GST is far superior!! So far around here the GST oil looks to be far better than Capella(and alot less expensive) but not as good as LaVezzi oil. I don't think I will be seeing clogged oil spirals running with GST oil that I usually see from 15 to 20 year old X-L's that have run for years with Capella.

Well, you generally don't run in the parts with JUST oil**IF** anything really needs running in at all. Generally one adds a tiny bit of running on compound to the oil, then the parts should be ultrasonically cleaned to get all the grit out afterwords. Today the majority of parts are sent out so accurately machined that there isn't much running in to do..... The use of go-no go hole gauges on the bushings tells the story there and selection of the correct hole gauges allows clearance for the normal oil film to be there right from the beginning. I don't believe in running in things to **Achieve** the correct clearances as it imposes to much wear on the brand new parts. I would consider the running in of a rebuilt movement today more of a just bench test to check for any heating up, and then we usually screen test them too. With LaVezzi oil it would take months to run in a movement but the parts that come out of LaVezzi today are far more accurate than they were 20 years ago... they don't require run in ... just a test run....

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-03-2005, 09:21 PM:

I agree that the LaVezzi parts now are just about perfect; not always matched in the kits, but close enough.

My problems revolve around out-of-square cases on XL & Century; many from long ago. Cost conscious exhibitors don't care how much touch up is necessary to bring these dead on. We do it anyway. (In my life I never saw a JJ case that was square until we started going the extra mile.......28 thou off one side of one.) Louis