This is topic Midnight Shows in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Will Wheatley Uhl (Member # 2103) on 08-03-2005, 09:08 PM:
How many others agree with me that a print MUST be screened before being shown to the public? The owners and head manager of my theatre don't seem to agree with me. Tomorrow will be the mllionth time that these jerks have given me prints to build up without the chance to screen them for our midnight show. I had to do this with Devil's Rejects and Fantastic Four as well. Im getting quite fed up with the shotty booth practices. And our booth has no masking tape, so sorry to all of you who get the tiny pieces of tape from the movies I have to break down. ![[thumbsdown]](graemlins/thumbsdown.gif)
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-03-2005, 09:51 PM:
It's ALWAYS a good idea to prescreen a print. Even a new print can have an unexpected problem that could be missed by hand inspection (e.g., wrong language soundtrack, out of sync track).
It DOES take time to get a replacement reel, so shows will be lost or compromised until you get the replacement reel.
quote: Will Wheatley Uhl
And our booth has no masking tape, so sorry to all of you who get the tiny pieces of tape from the movies I have to break down.
If your booth has no masking tape, that's a GOOD thing! Always use high quality clear splicing tape to make your splices. Lots of Film-Tech postings (SEARCH for them) about splicing tape and proper splicing technique.
Posted by Will Wheatley Uhl (Member # 2103) on 08-04-2005, 02:34 AM:
no, I meant for breaking down the prints, I just masking tape the heads and tails back on to save on cutting the film. I ALWAYS use splicing tape for splices, and I mandate clear.
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-04-2005, 03:19 AM:
Did I just hear someone load a shotgun? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-04-2005, 04:10 AM:
<"Chink,chink..click">
This a very, very touchy subject on this forum with using masking tape to tape back the leads on the film. I suggest that you'd better change a conversation real quick, especially with the one by John on midnight shows (the actual title of your opening topic that you created), or to something else more constructive and helpful than on what you, yourself uses on your film handling practices.
If you would have read all of the previous posts and topic matter about splicing techniques is that masking tape is only used for identifying the ends of the film roll of show title ID's and other information that the roll requires on for presentation.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-04-2005, 05:48 AM:
quote: Monte L Fullmer
...masking tape is only used for identifying the ends of the film roll of show title ID's and other information that the roll requires on for presentation.
I'd go as far to say that masking tape should not even be used for that! The adhesive on most masking tapes quickly deteriorates, either becoming a gooey mess, or drying out into powdery flakes. Use a higher quality "artist tape" or "drafting tape":
http://www.villagesupplies.net/3m_artist_tape.htm
http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=4514 quote:
3M White Paper Tape #256
An ideal graphic design and general purpose artist tape. The surface of this tape is smooth and easy to write on with pen, marker or pencil, and pencil marks are completely erasable. It adheres well but has a low-tack adhesive, making it easily repositionable if necessary. Use it for hinging, holding boards to tables, corrections, silhouetting, mounting, etc. The opaque surface is great for covering errors, and the non-glare backing is ideal for photographic applications.
quote:
3M #230 Drafting Tape
3M
Top Quality Drafting Tape.Easily lifts off drafting film and vellum, as well as other papers. Sold in "bulk" on a 3 inch core. 3 widths available
Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 08-04-2005, 06:19 AM:
Getting back on the subject, I'm also not too fond of the "blind" midnight show. I had to do that for 5 Star Wars E3 prints, with one of them interlock. I was sweating bullets that night.
Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-04-2005, 11:31 AM:
Sometimes it can't be helped such as with prints shipping Technicolor that arrive on Thursday just in time to get built up and run at midnight for the public.
If this guy wants to upgrade his presentation the magic answer machine will aid him the most as it will help find the multitudes of posts regarding proper film handling.
Just for fun I'll skim the surface:
-ID frames should only be on the heads if you've got to have one. It would also discourage the next guy from lobbing off even more frames if he's already got one handy.
-Clear splice tape should be used for EVERYTHING. No exception.
-Heads and tails should be reattached to the reel with clear splice tape on one side.
-Whenever a splice must be broken the tape should be peeled, not torn and left on the film.
-When securing the ends of the leaders after splicing them back on you can get away with a little masking tape if you absolutely have to but artists tape isn't that much more so ya might as well do it right if your owner will let you.
-Check out the film building 101, splicing, and splicer mod page in the tips section. Great information to be found!
Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 08-04-2005, 02:05 PM:
quote:
-Whenever a splice must be broken the tape should be peeled, not torn and left on the film.
Actually I've seen people on this very site say its fine to tear the splice when it concerns breaking down a movie. In fact, there was a paper stating this that was circulated in the cans some months ago by a film-techer.
Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 08-04-2005, 04:36 PM:
As long as the heads and tails accompany each reel, I could give a shit less how or whether they are attached. I've had 'em come in attached with duct tape, masking tape (most common), white paper tape, splicing tape (rare), staples, blue painters tape, and just about every thing else. Since I'm going to take all that stuff off anyway, it really doesn't affect anything.
You can't do anything about it so why whine about it??
Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-04-2005, 05:31 PM:
quote: Wolff King Morrow
Actually I've seen people on this very site say its fine to tear the splice when it concerns breaking down a movie. In fact, there was a paper stating this that was circulated in the cans some months ago by a film-techer.
Why not?
Might as well just peel it. Comes off a lot cleaner and makes the next guy happy cause he doesn't have to do it.
I do it all the time out of habbit because that's how we do it with trailers. Rather than leave tape on there to get overlapped, chopped off, or leave residue after long storage on the shelf it's ready to go.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-05-2005, 01:03 PM:
quote: Wolff King Morrow
people on this very site say its fine to tear the splice when it concerns breaking down a movie. In fact, there was a paper stating this that was circulated in the cans some months ago by a film-techer.
Tearing the splice during breakdown is "Film-Tech Approved" only if you are very short on time. Peeling the splice tape off is always the preferred way.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-05-2005, 01:51 PM:
Ditto to what Mike just said, but remember this as well, if someone peels the splicing tape and they used anything BUT Neumade tape, they must do a good job at getting all of the sticky residue off, or otherwise it will stick to the next convolution of film as it is rolled up, potentially causing damage to the film and more importantly, that sticky spot if not caught during buildup could initiate a nasty brain wrap on you!
Also remember most people breaking down are in a semi-hurry. Would you rather get a print that had the splices torn/split or a half-assed peel job to them? Personally I would rather a torn splice than a sloppy peel job.
Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 08-05-2005, 04:31 PM:
I'm pretty sure the paper I got in the can mentioned nothing about tearing "only being approved if you're in a hurry". All it stated was that it was fine to do that.
In any case, I use the nuemade clear tape myself.
Posted by Dave Callaghan (Member # 1544) on 08-05-2005, 11:31 PM:
quote:
-Heads and tails should be reattached to the reel with clear splice tape on one side.
I find it helps if I don't use the splicer's perforator and trimming blade to complete this half-splice for shipping. I use a razor blade to cut the edges. When the perforator isn't used, I believe the tape peels away more easily, because the perforator has a slight tendency to push the adhesive side of the splicing tape slightly into the perfs increasing the hold of the tape sometimes making it harder to peel the tape off if the next operator has to platter mount the print. If the next show is reel to reel - granted, the splicing tape is on one side and unperforated, who runs reel to reel without checking the splice connecting the leader to the reel? Even if the correct leader is spliced on, it is not uncommon to find the soundtrack reversed, attached with masking tape - even electrical tape seen recently. Who nowadays doesn't check the head end of every reel when running reel to reel?
quote:
they must do a good job at getting all of the sticky residue off, or otherwise it will stick to the next convolution of film as it is rolled up, potentially causing damage to the film and more importantly, that sticky spot if not caught during buildup could initiate a nasty brain wrap on you!
This DEFINITELY does not apply just to the head and tail splices. Hands down the WORST situation on a platter is the ABYSMAL removal of foil automation cues with residual adhesive left behind - ESPECIALLY near the beginning of the final credits. The beginning of the end credits are at a COMPLETELY ARBITRARY place in the last reel. NO ONE can know exactly where to look for this cue or plan to be there before the wrap happens. Moveover prints can be a nightmare for this reason. Because of the adhesive transfer to the next lap, I realize I prefer that the cues NOT be removed PROVIDED the last operator is sloppy - and you know who you are. The residue when I remove the cue is at least in one spot - two spots for those who think the foil has to be on both sides to pulse the automation - which is found in one place at least. Do a good job of foil removal and I appreciate that the last person recognized that my automation system and cue placement could be different.
Why can't booth personnel treat print handling like driving? On moveovers I mostly feel that if prints were driving, these clowns would be driving on the left side of the road in North America just because they are in a hurry and they get to THEIR destination quicker. F the rest.
quote: Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Did I just hear someone load a shotgun?
Over bad foil cue removal - YES!
One of the few good uses of standard masking tape in a projection booth is the removal of residual adhesive. Just cut off a piece a couple of inches long and touch the masking tape adhesive side to the residual adhesive on the film. Repeatedly touching a fresh part of the masking tape adhesive to the residual can remove all the residual from the film.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-06-2005, 01:20 PM:
quote: Dave Callaghan
a projection booth is the removal of residual adhesive. Just cut off a piece a couple of inches long...
..you can also zap a corner of a rag with WD-40 to get the goo off as well....
...or FG also does a good job removing goo.....
-Monte
Posted by Don Anderson (Member # 397) on 08-07-2005, 02:12 AM:
I have always been baffled as why theatres use masking tape or surgical tape. I have worked in the processing industry for years. Why don't theatres use one of the many brands of splicing tape that photofinisher use to splice 35mm film prior to processing?? It is easily removed, and leaves absolutely no residue. Some of the brand names include 3m, SpliceKing, ShureSplice. Costs around 4-8 bucks a roll, depending on the brand. No, its not the same type of tape as Neumade. Its thicker and peels off easier. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-07-2005, 03:28 AM:
quote: Monte L Fullmer
.you can also zap a corner of a rag with WD-40 to get the goo off as well....
...Do I hear another shotgun racking? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote: Don Anderson
Its thicker and peels off easier.
Thicker tape MIGHT cause the image to jump excessively at the splice.
-Aaron
Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 08-07-2005, 11:53 AM:
Deleted because I thought it was off subject.
Bill
Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-08-2005, 01:50 PM:
quote: Dave Callaghan
who runs reel to reel without checking the splice connecting the leader to the reel? Even if the correct leader is spliced on, it is not uncommon to find the soundtrack reversed, attached with masking tape - even electrical tape seen recently. Who nowadays doesn't check the head end of every reel when running reel to reel?
Lots of people apparantly all over the place.
However depending on the tape it could probably get perforated on the sprockets anyway.
I agree about the use of a piece of tape to remove residue.
Artists tape is very good for it as are old pieces of splice tape such as pulled off the leaders.
The most annoying thing for me is a print with the head and tail leaders spliced on BOTH sides. That annoys me because a single sided splice will run through just about anything so long as it's made correctly and the tape doesn't suck.
Oh, and a new annoyance: if you have wicked-greasy fingers then please wear cotton gloves.
I hate getting prints that look like they came from KFC.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-08-2005, 02:58 PM:
Be prepaired to be annoyed by any print you receive from me then...I always return the print with double sided splices and much prefer to receive them that way.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-08-2005, 09:20 PM:
quote "The most annoying thing for me is a print with the head and tail leaders spliced on BOTH sides. That annoys me because a single sided splice will run through just about anything so long as it's made correctly and the tape doesn't suck."
well he would be pissed off with me too as I always double side splices and also I know a lot of machines that will not run a single sided splice through
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-08-2005, 09:55 PM:
As I see it (and of course this is the most logical ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
) if the print has been plattered or assembled to large reels, there really is no need to double splice the leaders back on. However the leaders SHOULD be at least single sided spliced back on! This protects the edges of the film from damage during shipping by forcing a proper alignment and if a reel to reel house gets the print at the last second, assuming they don't have a crappy projector like Gordon mentioned, a single sided splice will run through just fine. Also, it's just the professional way to do it! You are always supposed to send the prints back out in "ready to run" condition, which means at minimum a proper single sided splice rejoining the leaders.
The problem I see with double sided splices is in how the tape is laid down. Standard width splicing tape if pulled directly over the center of the cut forces all 4 corners of the tape to be halfway perforated. This SUCKS because when the edge of the tape is peeled off, it commonly causes the tape to tear and then more picking is required to get it all off, which adds noticeable wear and marks to the splicing area.
A properly made double sided splice should be made like this
See how the edges of the tape are in between perforations? That makes it EFFORTLESS to peel during breakdown or for the next guy to disassemble the splice...rather than just saying "oh screw it" and chopping off the frame because the tape keeps tearing from the perforated corners. If someone sent me a used print broken down with either a single sides splice *or* a double sided splice as shown above, there would be no reason for complaining. It's the guys who break down with double sided splices where the edges of the tape are pulled through the perforations that belong in the "you suck" thread.
BTW, this is yet another reason why CIR splicers suck. You can't make this kind of a splice on a CIR. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Of course if you are stuck with a CIR splicer and can't get a real one (that means Neumade or Splycemar), then you should strongly consider using 19mm wide tape (4 perfs instead of 5, which alleviates that issue).
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-09-2005, 01:42 AM:
quote: Brad Miller
BTW, this is yet another reason why CIR splicers suck. You can't make this kind of a splice on a CIR.
Bullshit. You can make splices exactly like that all day long on a CIR splicer.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-09-2005, 02:11 AM:
If you want a quality splice, the registration pins on a CIR get in the way of being able to properly push the edges of the tape down. (Not that I've ever seen a quality splice from a CIR. )
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-09-2005, 04:38 AM:
..I was kinda wondering about that one pic that Brad posted of that Cat-69 Dolby Tone splice. The picts in that tip section of splicing with using a Neumade 35-SS (which is a 6-hole splicer) and this "preferred" splice example is only a 5-hole splice.
Which asks the obvious question: did one use 3/4inch tape, or a CIR splicer? Need to clarify that one a bit.
Have to agree as well: I've made great splices with a CIR splicer-sometimes better than a Neumade.
Only big difference is that the Neumade has the blades attached to the punch assembly and can be adjusted for a very close trim cut, whereas the CIR (or Guillitoine) has that one piece "horseshoe" blade assembly that can easily be knocked out of alignment if not treated with care-especially on putting it back together after a good cleandown.
Yet,I like the punch action of the CIR - just more smooth and simpler than the Neumade. But the CIR is a bugger to use when using "Zebra" tape since the tape can't be centered over the two film joins if using the dotted lines of the tape for frame marking. This is where the Neumade 35-SS has it made hands down.
(Does anyone have one of those so-so CPI splicers..or the weighty "doorstop" Strong monstrosity ??)
On single sided splices: Whoops....Have you ever had a single sided splice that started to hinge, for they will and the splice breaks during a performance since the loops were built too small and that single side splice LOVES to hinge when it hits either loop-going into the trap, or coming out? For hinged splices have created an horrible weak spot during the film run and will find trouble.
Mylar tape might be tough, but not that tough -it will break.
Be safe...do double sided splices. You want that splice to be like a piece of film that was uncut-not to hinge but to be as one. If any splice starts to hinge, rebuild it anew...and tight as can be.
-Monte
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-09-2005, 05:42 AM:
quote: Aaron Sisemore
Thicker tape MIGHT cause the image to jump excessively at the splice.
I think Don's suggestion was to use the thicker high quality tape to tape the film end, or to label the head leader. Not as splicing tape that had to go through the projector.
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 08-09-2005, 06:17 AM:
What about theaters that use a metric splicer? When they break down a print, there are 2 frames of film per reel change that get destroyed.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-09-2005, 06:31 AM:
Richard,
I believe the theory on that one is that the ultrasonic splicers in theatres are very rare (metric) and those that use them should cut their splice right on the weld and tape the leader/tails on without removing ANY frames.
The next theatre that receives the film is supposed to merely build up the print such that the original weld is still there but now covered by tape...note it is impossible for the next guy to follow the TIPS by adding the overlap for themselves to avoid hinging and separation (causing POPs in the analog sound).
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-09-2005, 04:45 PM:
Even the overlap issue (if so desired) on a re-tape from an ultrasonic cut can be eliminated with only one frame loss, not two. It depends on which way the film is placed on the chopping block on a modified splicer to create the overlap. Still though it's incredibly rare for a booth to have access to an ultrasonic splicer. In the big picture, it's a non-issue. Also anyone going to the trouble of purchasing and using an ultrasonic splicer is most certainly going to be super anal about their film handling practices, so the print is going to head back to the depot in pristine condition. Geez, what's worse, a typical multiplex print with chopped ID frames on the leader and probably scratches and dirt or a pristine print that had it's ultrasonic reel joins cut down the frameline. The whole argument is stupid.
The vast majority of theaters are making butt splices that are so sloppy one (or two) of the frames has to be cut off anyway to re-join the reels with a quality splice. Also there is so much shitty quality splicing tape on the market right now that some of that cannot be removed without actually causing more damage to the print if the frame is attempted to be saved. Again, look at the big picture and find something worth complaining about. Ultrasonic splices aren't the problem here.
Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 08-09-2005, 06:24 PM:
Ok, can someone change the title of this thread! I wanted to read about pre-screening for midnight shows!!!
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 08-09-2005, 11:37 PM:
Sorry, I was just being a smartass, didnt mean to take this topic even further off subject.
Rick
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 08-10-2005, 07:10 PM:
Brad said, "Also there is so much shitty quality splicing tape on the market right now that some of that cannot be removed without actually causing more damage to the print if the frame is attempted to be saved."
I think this has to mean you're not using the right solvents. I'm not in a good position to recommend something (we still have our stockpile of you-can't-buy-it-anymore Renovex aka 1,1,1-trichloroethane), but I would expect naptha to be very effective.
Have you tried using naptha or trichlo. and been unsuccessful at getting nasty gummy tape off? I can't think of a case where I've had to sacrifice a frame because of bad tape. And down at the bottom of the barell, we get some pretty bad prints.
--jhawk
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-10-2005, 08:39 PM:
Yes John, there is such a thing as tape that is so shitty that all of your solvents and rubbing actually puts marks on the film that is more distracting than just chopping the frame.
Believe me I do NOT condone chopping a frame whenever it isn't necessary, but I am pointing out that sometimes it IS necessary, and it's usually due to severely misaligned splicers and/or shitty tape.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-11-2005, 12:55 AM:
..FT removes goo pretty good, if one doesn't want to grab for the lighter fluid (which is naphta stuff) and save marking of the prints.
Back on Topic: It pays off sometimes to screen prints after being put together, since some class "B-Ushers" don't know how to inspect film as they're putting it together.
Example sakes: back when "Dogma" came out, one of my operators called me over to the other booth and told me that the last reel was all messed up while he was putting it together. I took a look at reel and something big happened at DeLuxe: picture was actually printed over the soundtrack area, and the soundtrack area was in the run of the sprockets. This reel was unpresentable. I told the manager, who called the booker to order a last reel of this film.
Then, there were a few times that a scene would weave and wobble until a big obvious jump, then everything was okey. I ran up and stopped the show, went back to that area on the filmroll and discovered that the positive stock in the printer came loose somehow and this weave in this section of film was printed. Okey, another bad, unpresentable reel.
-Monte
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-11-2005, 07:50 AM:
quote: Monte L Fullmer
picture was actually printed over the soundtrack area, and the soundtrack area was in the run of the sprockets. This reel was unpresentable. I told the manager, who called the booker to order a last reel of this film.
Then, there were a few times that a scene would weave and wobble until a big obvious jump, then everything was okey. I ran up and stopped the show, went back to that area on the filmroll and discovered that the positive stock in the printer came loose somehow and this weave in this section of film was printed. Okey, another bad, unpresentable reel.
When the image shifts like that, it's a rare occurance of the film jumping off the printer sprocket, which could occur at a raw stock "lab" splice. (The picture negative and sound negative are "contact printed" by running both the original and raw stock over a 64-tooth circumference printer sprocket, with the raw stock as the outside lap). Usually caught during lab inspection, but not always. As noted, another good reason to prescreen prints, with someone watching and listening for issues that might be missed during make-up inspection.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-11-2005, 02:09 PM:
Thx John for your reply. Now, I might drift off-topic a bit here, but it still pertains to screenings:
I have to ask this one, since it kinda bugs me on occasion: I've noticed (since everything is now contact printed) that some features have the great color balances, then there are those that looks so blue-greenish to where something was amiss during developing, or the color balancing levels wasn't watched during printing.
Any help on this would be great in answering this question.
thx, John. - Monte
[ 08-12-2005, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-11-2005, 02:15 PM:
That one is rather odd since the soundrack and picture are printed on seperate sprockets it would have to have climbed off on both
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-11-2005, 02:20 PM:
I'm sure you know what safelight fogging looks like --- usually it's a magenta-blue-cyan coloration across the full width of the film for a short length of film, most often in the leaders or near a lab splice.
A colder overall color balance may have been a creative decision. Usually the lab gets final approval of the color at the answer print stage, makes the duplicate negatives, but then has to show the distributor that the release prints track the color balance of the approved answer print. "Check prints" are usually viewed for this purpose.
Posted by Don Anderson (Member # 397) on 08-11-2005, 05:29 PM:
I never intended my post to use film processing tapes to run through projectors. John P was correct, I use it to tape the ends to the leaders.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-12-2005, 07:00 AM:
I received THE SOUND OF MUSIC recently and the leaders were attached with artist tape on both sides, a length of about 3 inches with a slight tab on the end attached to the film body side so as to make removal of the tape a simple matter of pulling the tab. Each join was obviously made correctly on a splicer because the film was perfectly aligned. Although the tape did cover the entire picture area it didn't cover the sprocket holes (I am figuring 3/4in tape?). I was building to 6000ft reels and this method seemed to work very well; it cut down the time considerably. Removal of this artist tape "splice" was a piece of cake and even easier than a regular single-sided tape splice would have been. And no, it wasn't runable that way for a change-over house, but had I been running this on 2000ft reels which is mostly what I do, it wouldn't have bothered me at all to reattach the leaders with regular splices for change-over. And thinking about it, this method might go even a bit further to stop the B-ushers from lopping off another frame just so they don't have to peal even that one-sided piece of splicing tape. If I were running this change-over, I sure would welcome making new splices instead of getting a print with mulitple frames cut off at each and every join -- 22 in this case of a 12 reeler.
quote: Wolff King Morrow
Actually I've seen people on this very site say its fine to tear the splice when it concerns breaking down a movie.
And can someone explain what "tearing" a splice means? I understand "pealing" but tearing sounds way too much like it is going to damage film.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-12-2005, 03:01 PM:
No, no, no, no, no Frank. Please don't even start with that idea again! In the real world that sort of practice while is *possible* to be done in such a fashion that could work, is a bad idea for many reasons.
#1 Artist tape over time DOES get gooey. This is magnified when the film is sitting in a hot warehouse, which they all are. So if the print is shelved for some time, you now have 3 INCHES WORTH OF GOO AND CRUD AT THE REEL CHANGE TO CLEAN OR CHOP OFF!!! Not acceptable. At least with a single sided splice (using splicing tape), even if the splicing tape is gooey you only have one frame to deal with cleaning up vs. chopping. This practice will undoubtedly end up with people cutting off MULTIPLE FRAMES so as to not have to deal with cleaning up the residue left from the Artist's tape.
#2 Most booths do not have Artist's tape, and if this practice is recommended, people will start doing it with masking tape!!! ![[puke]](graemlins/puke.gif)
#3 People are lazy. Hadn't you noticed? Prints broken down with this method will end up being done without a splicer, which ends up making the ends not properly square to each other and causes edge damage as the reels are banged around during shipping. Guess what that means? Yup, more chopped frames!
Are you noticing a pattern here? From a guy who so adamantly saves every frame possible, this is a terrible recommendation.
-------
"Tearing a splice" refers to taking both index fingers and thumbs on either side of the cut right next to each other and just "tearing" the splice apart. If you do this with some junk film you will see that it doesn't damage the integrity of the cut itself and the splicing tape just tears down the middle.
Posted by Heath Dutton (Member # 3265) on 08-12-2005, 05:14 PM:
Back to the original topic...
We have always done late night screenings for all prints.
The rare exception being the occasional Indian film thats dropped upon us unexpectedly in the usual burlap bag.
Usually as early as tuesday I'll find out what prints we will be recieving and I'll post a schedule of previews downstairs for the employees, with all previews starting at the earliest available slots. I have a niftly little coppied form with all the previewing rules on it so I just fill in the movie titles, times and auditoriums.
Among the rules are the obvious ones... No customers, must have a walkie, cannot leave mid-show, etc.
Unfortunately we don't have enough projectionists to preview all prints, so we try to get the groundlings to do as much of it as possible. Occasionally this system fails when the previewer falls asleep, but in general this works quite well.
As for movies with midnight openings, we usually find slots earlier in the day that can be cancelled, or not played due to no tickets being sold, and get those prints previewed by assistant managers. I'm not sure if this practice is compleytely legal, but I would think it absolutely necessary. In at least one case this has prevented a deffective reel from being shown at midnight, which would have dissapointed hundreds of patrons.
Posted by Will Wheatley Uhl (Member # 2103) on 08-12-2005, 05:47 PM:
Thank you for bringing my original post back on topic, I can't believe that one sentance about tape would start this craziness. Unfortunately, I am the only person in the entire theatre that stays to screen the prints. This usually means I am at the theatre from 6pm on thursday, to 7am on friday building up, breaking down, screening, and moving prints. I have to do all this myself, and I don't think my pay rate is worth it. My house manager actually asked me, why do you have to watch the prints all the way through? Why can't you just run it through a projector and check it? To which I replied, because I can't see all the possible film defects inbetween checks. I like to be thourough, but am I being too thourough? Or perhaps Im a fool to work more than the house and assistant managers without being on salary (Im technically a manager too). Film tech friends, what should I do.
Also, my manager has repeditively told me to put a piece of splicing tape over my foil cues to prevent them from coming off. I tell him no for various reasons but it never seems to convince him. What are your opinions?
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-12-2005, 06:42 PM:
[quote] my manager has repeditively told me to put a piece of splicing tape over my foil cues to prevent them from coming off. ...What are your opinions?
I have a piece of junk film that I tack onto the end of all of my prints. It has a 1" strip of foil tape on it that cues the automation shutdown. I've been using this same junk strip for about five years on every single show and have never had to replace the foil tape yet. So, unless you are using an extremely crappy type of foil, or if you run prints for more than five years, I'd say putting a piece of splice tape over the foil is a waste of splice tape.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-12-2005, 06:48 PM:
Especially since they must be proximity cues. How can a proximity cue 'wear off' and if it is you certainly have more to worry about in the way of film damage than improper cueing.
Posted by Heath Dutton (Member # 3265) on 08-12-2005, 07:45 PM:
If you have more than one house, I would say it's ok to preview 2 films at once, especially if they are identical prints. I have done this several times by playing them at the same time in adjacent auditoriums. I would then jump from behind one window to the other every 5-10 minutes to make sure I saw the bulk of each reel. Usually if there is a reel defect it will be through the entire reel. Staying up all night to watch all prints by yourself is a bit crazy to me, you should at least train some ushers to stay and preview.
As for the cues, what kind of cue-tape are you using? We recently switched to a thinner, less obtrusive cue-tape, but it ended up not holding up very long at all. So, we went back to our THICK cue tape which we wrap over the edge of the film. We have to splice holes in it, and it can interrupt analog sound, but the only place it's used on the actual print is at the beginning of credits so it's rarely noticable. And the thick stuff never stops working. Sometimes the cue-detectors aren't as sensitive as they should be and thinner cue-tapes will be ignored when they are only a week or two old.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-13-2005, 02:24 AM:
quote: Dustin Mitchell
How can a proximity cue 'wear off' and if it is you certainly have more to worry about in the way of film damage than improper cueing.
If you have those FP-350's mounted below your Simplexes, and if I know that I'm running a show for quite a long time, I'll slap some splicing tape over the cue tape to keep the tape from "cracking" and wearing out.
Cue tape does wear out over time for the simple reason that we are dealing with aluminum foil that has an adhesive material on the back side. Being aluminum and not liking to flex too much, and with film being so flexible, the foil will eventually start to crack and break down, espeically if foil is laid over the film lengthwise in the direction of the film.
When the foil starts to crack, it's not a continual piece of metal, but "flakes" of metal that is held together by the adhesion of the glue backing material. This breakdown is what the FP350's can't sense very well. They need the line of continuity of the metal to function correctly.
Christie units with the SPECO failsafe detector for the 3Q default automation, has the three sensors that reads the strip of metal that is position on the film. This failsafe will also need "fresh" cues placed after time-especially with houses that run the same print month after month.
Now, some houses with the SPECO failsafe detector, will take a paper punch and make "punchout dots" from the cue tape to place on the film for cue pickup being that the SPECO is quite sensitive.
Thick cue tape isn't the answer. Use the thin tape for better pickup and do the tape thing to cover it. I've done the thick tape and it's not as sensitive as the thin stuff.
Just been there and done that too many times - replacing cue tape after a fashion.
-Monte
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 08-13-2005, 03:46 AM:
with the rolls of foil cue tape (brand unknown) that we traditionally used, sometimes the cues would wear down and fail, necessitating replacement. recently, i've been using the aucuta II strips, and haven't had a failure so far. granted, we haven't really played a film to death in that time so it may happen yet. but it peels better than the rolled stuff too.
i don't like putting tape over the cue as it shows on screen. whether it makes the cue last longer, i don't know.
i experimented briefly with cutting the cue strips narrower to be less visible on scope films. that was a disaster. lots of missed cues. (of course it worked fine on the test screening.) i haven't tried it yet with the aucuta II though, so there's something to play around with in the future.
carl
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-13-2005, 04:51 AM:
..a little tip: if you place the cue on the film where it doesn't carry over onto the picture, place the cuetape dead center of the side of the frame-inbetween the two center sprocketholes, then you can draw the splicing tape that will cover the frame completely from edge to edge so the tape won't be seen during presentation. Plus, with the covering of the cuetape with splicing tape, the punch set of the splicer will punch out the edges of the cuetape as well.
Takes a bit of time to do this, but no problems occur with this method.
Just some tricks that I've figured out over the years....
-Monte
Posted by Will Wheatley Uhl (Member # 2103) on 08-15-2005, 12:48 AM:
Just to clarify, by the cues wearing out, I mean they litterally peel off. They are there for a day and then are worn clean off by the projectors and end up in parts unknown. The reason behind this is that the solution behind every shaky print is to tighten the gate, tighter and tighter and tighter. I usually suggest that the gate parts are looked at and possibly replaced due to excessive wear and trenching, but I am ignored and yelled at for cleaning the gates and gate parts. Just to Clarify.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-15-2005, 03:17 AM:
Man...tightening up the gate more tighter is beating the living HELL out of the prints, let alone beating the hell out of the projector. Like driving a car with the E-BRAKE still engaged...
What kind of machine do your theatre have, and maybe some of us can help you remedy the overtightness problem that you have so you won't be losing cue tape off of your prints.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-17-2005, 03:55 PM:
Bits of adhesive and foil from the cue tape getting caught in the hot gate will build up hardened deposits that can abrade the print. Add excessive gate tension, and print damage becomes much more likely.
Lower the tension to the minimum necessary to hold good focus and keep a steady image. Clean the gate rails/bands (especially hardened deposits) between each show.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-17-2005, 06:20 PM:
quote: Will Wheatley Uhl
Just to clarify, by the cues wearing out, I mean they litterally peel off. They are there for a day and then are worn clean off by the projectors and end up in parts unknown.
You either must be using the world's least-sticky cue tape, or something in your film path must be scratching the living hell out of your prints.
Posted by Matthew Stevens (Member # 2167) on 08-17-2005, 06:51 PM:
According to Technicolor, a good projectionist should be able to build a print in 30-45 min. Thanks jackass, but in the real world, I have other projectors to thread. Thanks technicolor for dropping off "Me & You & Everyone We Know" 30 minutes before the first showing.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-17-2005, 07:47 PM:
quote: Matthew Stevens
Thanks technicolor for dropping off "Me & You & Everyone We Know" 30 minutes before the first showing.
..something like that happens to me, I just drop that first show so I'm not in a fetching hurry and could have possible problems to build that print in time for that lst show-let alone with lacing up the other machines, especially if I'm the only one upstairs.
The first show isn't that important where patience and correct procedures in print assembly is.
-Monte
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-17-2005, 07:52 PM:
Print arrives 30min ahead of show time isn't a problem for a changeover house ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 08-17-2005, 08:19 PM:
Provided, 0f course, that none of the reels are missing.
Posted by Will Wheatley Uhl (Member # 2103) on 08-17-2005, 08:44 PM:
My theatre Runs Ballantyne (sp?) Pro 35 projectors. Thats about as far as I know about the model. 4 of them are the type where everything, rectifier, sound box, and automation are separate, but the other 6 are the big cabinet type where everything is enclosed. The theatre opened in 1983 and I know that the original 4 projectors are still there. As far as any other technical information, I really can't supply it because I'm not really told anything else.
And yes, the gates do develop deposits on the runners. I have, multiple times, removed the gate from the rest of the housing to clean the runners and other gate parts only to find them pitted and very worn. No one at the theatre trusts me enough to replace these parts even though I've been shown how. I hate my theatre.
It adds unnecessary tension to my life and my films...
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-17-2005, 09:29 PM:
quote: Monte L Fullmer
..something like that happens to me, I just drop that first show so I'm not in a fetching hurry and could have possible problems to build that print in time for that lst show-
We get many prints delivered on Fridays, especially the ETS ones because we are a two-day UPS trip from the depot. This, coupled with my day job, means I quite often have to build a print in 30 to 45 minutes. It's old hat here. If I cancelled the first show every time it happened, I'd be drawn and quartered by the fans!
The bitch of it is, if a print is scratched, we're screwed until Monday. But we play films quickly enough that about 97% or more of the time it isn't a problem. The biggest problems we have these days are those damn fall-apart reels and smashed DTS disk cases.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-17-2005, 10:06 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
This, coupled with my day job, means I quite often have to build a print in 30 to 45 minutes. It's old hat here.
You're smokin'good, Mike. Course, you've trained yourself to do it this way for a long time.
True, If I have that amount of time, with all reels heads up and I know what lens format the movie is in, I will have my trailer pak built the night before so all I have to do is whip the print together - done within 30 minutes for a 6 reel movie-and that's doing the EDGEMARK thingey....as long I'm not bothered and hit it continually.
But, if time doesn't allow it for any reason, I'll then have that first show cancelled, or at least be late on the screen.
-Monte
Posted by Matthew Stevens (Member # 2167) on 08-18-2005, 04:52 PM:
quote: Monte L Fullmer
I just drop that first show so I'm not in a fetching hurry
- Monte L Fullmer
Monte- I wish me boss would hear it your way, unfortunately, he didn't.
Right now, I'm sitting on the managers' computer waiting for a print of Broken Flowers. Our window is from 12-5 for dropping off prints, let's translate that to technicolor: Window of 12-5 pm, let's make that as late as possible
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-19-2005, 02:06 AM:
quote: Matthew Stevens
...let's make that as late as possible...
..and TECH will take advantage of that as close as they can at times.
Don't know how many cancellations, or late starts of the first screening I've had to make on TECH's Friday deliveries with a delivery window that is posted on the label, which is usually the afternoon arrangement times.
-Monte
[ 08-19-2005, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]
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