Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: LTI Xenons

This is topic LTI Xenons in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007388

Posted by Hieu Trung Ngo (Member # 3298) on 08-12-2005, 10:25 AM:

Just a quick question. My theatre just recently switched over to LTI Xenon bulbs from OSRAMS, apparently because of the price. AMC has told us that these bulbs function just as well, but I've noticed a significant drop in light quality, especially in our big houses which now use LTI helios lamps (4.2k), they used to be OSRAM 7ks (we actually got new lenses for the big houses because there was such poor light output). I also find that these bulbs get dim a lot faster than the OSRAMs do. Is there any way to get better performance out of these bulbs?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-12-2005, 11:21 AM:

We have not had alot of premature failures of the regular LTI lamps but have not heard good things about the Helios yet. If your employer is interested in putting on the best quality show they would be using Christie Lamps but thats a far fetched dream isn't it.......

Mark

Posted by Hieu Trung Ngo (Member # 3298) on 08-12-2005, 11:33 AM:

yeah it is a dream, we haven't had any failures per se, its just the light output is not great, seems very dim for a bulb with only 1000 hours on it, which in my eyes is pretty much a failure. any suggestions on better performance?

Posted by Heath Dutton (Member # 3265) on 08-12-2005, 01:00 PM:

Thats a bummer... I haven't had experience with LTI, but unfortunately I've had to stretch Osrams out to the limit. Even so a bulb of that wattage should probably be replaced after 1000 hours. Sounds like if you buy LTI, you might have to replace more often, and in the end you might not be saving much money.

You could try rotating the bulbs more frequently, doing quarter turns instead of half (if it's horizontal mount). It's safer than bumping up the voltage and can extend the life a good bit.

Posted by Hieu Trung Ngo (Member # 3298) on 08-12-2005, 01:10 PM:

sorry i should've been more clear, its not the 4.2ks that are dim after 1000 its the 3ks.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-12-2005, 02:18 PM:

What lamphouse do you have? Some lamphouses will be able to burn bulbs longer than others. The *magic combination* for incredible lamp life is pretty well agreed upon these forums of a Christie bulb in a Christie lamphouse. In less than 2 years of running, the Christie lamphouse burning Christie bulbs beats out a Strong (and other lamphouses) hands down in terms of bulb AND equipment cost, even though the Christie lamphouse will have cost a little more money to purchase initially. Anyone doing their research wouldn't put any other console in a new complex if $$$ is an issue.

Still though let's say you have a Strong lamphouse. Even though you won't be able to get the amazing amount of hours burning a Christie bulb in there as if you were burning a Christie bulb in a Christie lamphouse, that bulb in a Strong lamphouse will still outlast all other bulb brands. So even though the bulb costs more money to purchase, if the math is done taking into fact the amount of usable hours it is capable of, the Christie comes out way ahead in price AND performance.

Bottom line, there just isn't a "cheaper" bulb out there than a Christie, assuming you do the math as to how many hours you can get off of it vs. just basing the choice on price alone. During construction, there is also no better choice for a lamphouse, as even off-brand bulbs get better life in a Christie lamphouse.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 08-12-2005, 03:39 PM:

LTI have consistently proven themselves to be poor over here. In any lamphouse. Thay have a nasty habit of exploding and taking mirrors with them, that's assuming you can get them to fit int eh first place. I've seen plenty of them with bad manufacturing tolerances so they don't fit lampholders properly. They aren't particularly cheap either, the price difference between LTI and the same spec Osram is miniscule, and more than dissapears when you factor in lamp life and the odd mirror.

[ 08-14-2005, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Pete Naples ]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-12-2005, 04:40 PM:

I dunno Brad...I have a plex of all Strongs (lamphouses) running Christie lamps and they all get 2-4X the rated life out of them...that is better than 6000 hours on a 2K and 3000-5000 hours on a 3K.

I have an 8-plex with Xetron consoles where they routinely get 6000 hours on their 2Ks and I just yanked one with 9000 hours on it.

I think the key was the Christie lamps.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-12-2005, 07:44 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I think the key was the Christie lamps.

Steve,

You hit the nail on the head. Any exhibitor thats not smart enough to buy the longest lasting lamp is just a really stupid exhibitor. Here they are transfixed on the initial lamp cost and not the operating cost per hour which with Chrustie lamps is rediclously low. We have several locations that typically run their Christie 2k's past 10K hours. I would attribute that to the Christie lamps AND the hurricane force blowers that I always spec in.

quote: Brad Miller
Anyone doing their research wouldn't put any other console in a new complex if $$$ is an issue.

Brad, Is absolutely correct. The 10K plus hours I see consistantly are from Christie consoles and lamphouses. Most of our customers don't run their lamps that long but 6K hours is typical for most of them. I just don't see that happenning with Strong equipment, the cooling in them is very deficient. I don't blame that on the switching supplies as we have switchers running Christe lamphouses and easily get 6K hours from them.

LTI 2kw lamp, 450.00 purchase price getting 2000 hours life typical = .225 lamp cost per hour.

Christie 2kw lamp, 525.00 purchase price getting 6k hours typical =.0875 per hour lamp cost.

Anyone not buying a Christie lamps(or installing hurricane force blowers) is just plain stipid [Big Grin]

Mark

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-12-2005, 08:20 PM:

Steve - do you have any experience with running lamps in Kinoton lamphouses for such extended periods of time? I don't, because in the companies that I worked for in Germany, it was iron policy to change the lamps after 150% of the nominal life span of the lamp, no matter what it looked like.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-12-2005, 09:46 PM:

I do indeed have Christie lamps running in Kinoton brand lamphouses. Unfortunately for most longevity purposes, these are in screening rooms and often their first lamp might be their last lamp for a decade!

However...CXL-20SC, CXL-30SC and CXL-40SC I have in running in day, in, day out are doing very well. The CXL-50SC isn't doing too well but it is a more recent lamp from Christie...the CXL-60SC also is a bit hit and miss. Mind you, the flicker I'm seeing on the 5 and 6Ks are happening right from the get-go, not a premature darkening or a developed flicker.

With Kinoton, they normally have one use their smaller lamphouse for 2KW and use the super-short 2KW xenon lamp that is based on the 1600HS watt lamp package. I can't recommend enough against this...I always use the larger lamphouse (better cooling) and use the larger 2000-watt lamp that is based on the 2500 lamp package. Furthermore, your choice of lamps in that tiny 2KW are very limited. There is OSRAM's 2000W/SHSC, Ushio's UXL-21SCB, LTI's 2000SCSB and ASL's XM2000-27HS (Superior Quartz has talked abotu offering the size as an over-rated 1600 watt, I don't know if they ever did). Note, Christie does not offer the lamp size even though Ushio does (their parent company). In the larger short arc lamp, just about everyone, including Christie has an equivalent of the CXL-20SC.

I've powered the Kinoton lamphouses running Christie lamps with Strong switchers (up to 1.6K), Christie CCX series rectifiers, IREM's N3 series and in DLP situations, IREMs switchers. I've had reasonable results from all.

Again, my Kinoton installations are all in screening rooms or special venue (with the AFI/Silver being the most main-stream in that they run daily). In conventional theatres, most of ours are Strongs and the Christie lamps are doing phenominal. About the only complaint we get from time to time, regardless of lamphouse, is a hard to strike lamp (takes many strikes but once lit, runs fine). For whatever it is worth, the Kinotons seem to have fewer hard to strike complaints but I've had it with them too on a set of CXL-30SCs with Christie power.

Posted by Hieu Trung Ngo (Member # 3298) on 08-12-2005, 10:14 PM:

Hey Brad,

We do have Strong consoles (Highlight II), and i totally agree with what you're saying about the LTIs not being "cheaper" because of their short life, I just wish that AMC would see things the same way and just get us a quality bulb.

The one thing I was really confused about was switching the 7k osrams for 4.2k LTIs, i'm not sure why they actually thought we would get the same light output......anyone have an answer for this?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-12-2005, 10:44 PM:

Having never personally tested one of these magic 4.2K bulbs side by side, I can't honestly say, but it sure sounds like bullshit to me. (Especially since everyone I know who has tried them reported worse light output.)

Has anyone actually done comparisons with a brand new 7K regular bulb vs. a brand new 4.2K magic bulb?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-12-2005, 11:01 PM:

Where is the position of the plasma ball in relation to the 7k lamps? Is it possible that in these test installations the lamp wasn't in the right position? Can the 4.2k simply take the place of a 7k or do you need spacers?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-13-2005, 12:12 AM:

I'm inclined to believe that the alleged improved light with the Helos version of the LTI lamps is probably based on particular reflectors rather than a universal truth. Xenon lamp design seems to be part art, part voo-doo and part enigineering.

Some lamps put out a relatively steady light output from beginning to end (with a little bit of fall off in the first 100 hours or so), some seem to just tank with each hour...some strike easy, some strike hard...they play with electrode design, shape, gaps, flutes, supports....you name it, some lamp manufacturer has tried to fiddle with it.

ORC lamps had this weird pulsation to them...why? Couldn't tell you it was just there. Christie lamps stay clear even after thousands of hours...why? I guess they use purer materials and assemble them in a cleaner fashion than others.

I seem to recall that Strong has a particular reflector they make for the Highlight IIa that works well with the LTI Helos series...you'd have to ask them about it though (we just use the separates...Super Lume-X and Ultra-80).

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-13-2005, 12:20 AM:

A couple of friends and I had a debate on this subject. I recently replaced my aging X60B lamphouses with 3 new Big Sky 7kW units and 7kW Strong switchers. Two of them are running 4kW lamps. While I don't have actual measurements, I feel that the Big Sky lamps have flat blown away the X-60s... one of them with a very good glass reflector in it. These things have the glass reflectors and extra heat filters in them, and everything runs nice and cool.

The debate was over the economics of using a Helios bulb, instead of the 7kW lamp that I run on my larger screen. Personally, I like an off-the-shelf product, produced by several sources, so I can do some shopping if reliability or pricing does become an issue. These boxes just coast along, and I'm getting 150% hours on the 7kW bulbs with no problems. Being a drive-in, the brute force approach seems to work pretty well for me.

So far, bulb replacement has always been because I don't want to push my luck with the glass reflectors, just to get a few more hours out of the bulb. I don't know how many hours I could actually get out of a 7kW bulb... not sure I'd gamble on sending a field full of people home, just because I was trying to find out.

On the other hand, the people I've talked with about trying to get the same performance using the helios bulb instead (either for electrical savings or because they don't have 3 phase power available) have been initially impressed with the bulb's performance, but then think it drops off much faster than the standard bulbs they used to use.

One thing's for sure though... none of these higher-wattage bulbs run like they did when I first bought this place. In the '80s, 4k bulbs in a bad ORC lamphouse routinely got upwards of 3,000 hours out here.

Posted by Carey Barber (Member # 1586) on 08-13-2005, 12:27 AM:

Hieu - I couldn't agree more about the LTI bulbs. AMC had us switch from ordering the Christie CXL bulbs to the LTI bulbs a while back.

These bulbs frequently have poor output before the rated hours. Dim light and flickering are common. The Christie bulbs we used to purchase could go well past their rated hours and still look great. We have Christie SLC lamphouses - 2K, 3K, 4K, and 6k lamphouses. The poor performance of the LTI bulbs can be seen each size lamphouse.

It was also my understanding that we switched to save money, but at the rate I have to change bulbs then we are definitely losing money. The price difference between them is not that much anyway.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 08-13-2005, 12:12 PM:

Superior has a bulb = to the 2000WHSC; their model # is SX20008. Not a great fan of that bulb size but the major European three - Kinoton, Ernemann, Cinemeccanica like to use it. The bulb does not require magnetic stabilization but a big problem I have had in the past is when a tech or purchasing agent has tried to use a W/H type as a replacement which requires a magnet and complains of short life and poor light. Strong is using a reflector for the console( if you remember to spec that model ) to optimize to the Helios gap but I feel it is more like running a system to the floor at the start instead of "cruising" [Smile]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-13-2005, 01:05 PM:

Now a curious question: If LTI's are having their problems as some of these posts are pointing to, why is then the company raving about the quality of these bulbs, or is this problem considered a minor situation to where improvements aren't being in order to correct such conditions as mentioned?

..or do they know about it, turning a "blind" eye on the matters.

I'm not familiar with LTI's since we're a dedicated Christie bulb user.

..are they going to fade like the ORCS/Perkin-Elmers POS bulbs?

-monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-13-2005, 03:10 PM:

BTW...the ORC lamps have evolved yet again and take the form of the "ASL" lamps ( www.aslamps.com ). They have evolved a bit though. The quality seems vastly superior. Build quality seems higher, electrodes are different, no pulsating flicker and best yet, no problems.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-13-2005, 04:20 PM:

I tested severalo of the ALS lamps and had excellent life but I still noticed a issue with IR in the trap with them compared to Osram

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 08-13-2005, 04:52 PM:

Can I ask a question? With all these bulb failures, what is "everyone" doing with the heavy-metal electrodes of the old lamps? I come from the very old school, wherein we were saving the copper "drippings" from the carbon lamps, and have wondered if there was any value to the leftover electrodes. I posted some in a 'for sale' ad here a few weeks ago, but nobody contacted me. So ... I'm still wondering if anyone has ever found any use for these things. Are they useful for recycling? They've got to be made of some exotic materials, esp. tungsten. Any info?

Posted by Hieu Trung Ngo (Member # 3298) on 08-13-2005, 09:35 PM:

I'm pretty sure that they are losing money, but I still don't understand why they are still using the LTI bulbs, someone told me that LTI will replace our reflectors if the bulb blows during the warranty period, but why take the risk?

We're also getting meter readings of less than 10 foot lamberts on a flat lens with the 4.2Ks, this is on a 62 foot screen. You can actually tell how poor the light output is as soon as the presentation starts. Has anyone tried telling AMC this? they spent $2000 on new lenses for us, but they could've saved that money and more in the long run if they just continued to let us use the Osrams or Christies....

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-14-2005, 01:10 AM:

We (also AMC) have been made to switch to LTI bulbs. We don't get anywhere near the hours we get with Osram bulbs. We're using Strong Super Highlight II lamp houses, and Osram bulbs frequently run up to 150% of their warranty - which is when AMC makes us change them, regardless of how they look - and sometimes still look like new. The LTI bulbs barely make it to their warranty before needing to be changed. And let's talk about the flimsy assed protective covers that the bulbs ship in. We dropped a used bulb with the cover on just to see how well it kept the glass from going everywhere, and the force of the explosion ripped the cover apart. That doesn't happen with the Osram or Christie protective covers.

It seems to me that every few years AMC switches Xenon bulb brands to try to save money. Since everyone uses different lamp houses, and as Brad said, different lamp houses play differently with different bulbs, it should NOT be a corporate decision that every theater should use the same brand bulb. If AMC really wants to save money, the engineering staff should have the flexibility to decide based on experience and past history which bulb brands are best suited for which theaters.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-14-2005, 05:49 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
Has anyone actually done comparisons with a brand new 7K regular bulb vs. a brand new 4.2K magic bulb?

XBO 4200W/GS *cough* Technilight *cough* [Wink]

They put out the light but they sure as [sex]

don't last too long.

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 08-09-2006, 05:14 PM:

On the subject of LTI bulbs... Just had my first one blow up on me here. Another Loews that AMC bought and yes, Osrams to LTI. 900 hours and it blew up! and took out the reflector too. These things are garbage. Good one!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-09-2006, 06:21 PM:

If this continues, we will have triggered a world-wide reflector shortage. Louis

Posted by Christopher Meredith (Member # 3767) on 08-09-2006, 07:19 PM:

Home office sent us a 3k LTI helios bulb when I asked for a 4k Christie. First one I've ever used and I had to remove it last weeked because it had completely clouded over at 550 hours.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-09-2006, 07:51 PM:

At the 6-plex (using Strong lamphouses and switching rectifiers), we switched from Osram to LTI a few years ago. They have all 2kw lamps and were getting 3500+ hours out of the Osrams. We rarely had flicker or poor light and usually just replaced the bulbs due to age.

Since switching to LTI, we have had one lamp go "boom" mid-show, have had exactly one that lasted more than 3000 hours (most don't make it to 2000 before flickering), and currently have two that are flickering badly at about 1200 hours each (and no spares). I keep telling them to order Osrams, but they don't.

To date, I have been completely unimpressed with LTI 2000 W/H lamps. I'm willing to bet that Osram is significantly cheaper on a "cost-per-hour" basis, too. Having never used them, I can't comment on Christie bulbs, but I will say that Osram makes a quality product.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 08-09-2006, 08:09 PM:

I think that everyone has to do what works best for them. You can run a bulb for the rated warranty (generally 1000 hours), run it 150% of waranty, play roulette by stretching it out (3k,6k,9k hours). Take your pick.

But I ask: At what cost? Unstable arc? Loss of light? Explosion and loss of reflector? You pay your money and you take your chances.

I have Strong Highlighter II consoles with 2K, 3K &4k bulbs. I also have Xetrons that use 2.5K (they are verticals) I use Osrams. I pull the 4ks at 2000 hrs, 3K at 2500, and the 2ks at a maximum of 3000. I generally start a new bulb at 80% of it's rating, then gradually increase them, but never run them at top wattage. I keep my equipment clean and well maintained.

Using this rule of thumb over the past six and a half years, I have not experienced an explosion, significant loss of light, or flickering. In the one instance where I had a new bulb with an unstable arc, Osram replaced it.

Could I stretch the envelope? Sure, but at what cost (see above)? Could I switch to another bulb manufacturer? Yes, but if I'm happy with the results, why should I?

I'm hearing "Christie" on this topic. I could switch. But, if something goes wrong I'm going to hear it a lot louder from my owners.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-10-2006, 04:36 AM:

I've had 3 2k LTi's explode on me. 5 bulbs couldn't even get between 11 and 1500 hrs before they'd begin to flicker like mad (seems that the tungsten compound is so much weaker that the anode would crater out and crack in the middle of the anode plug), alone the quartz would cloud up long before this. These were the standard LTi's.

I did have one Helios, but still not impressed with it at all. Only positive on this is that I managed to get my warranty life out of this one. They are warranted for 1500 hrs (2k HEH) and got 2300 hrs out before removal. Still, the envelope was all clouded and was flickering pretty good on the removal.

Yes, I do like the light output in which it does stay constant throughout their life - real bright and very white light - not get on the slight yellowhish side as with Osram and Christie when they get the age on them.

But, in the long run ... Christies are the best around in my book.

-Monte