Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: "Lets automate the booth"

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Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 09-19-2005, 09:29 PM:

Hi Folks:

Every booth seems to have problems. The making keeps shifting to flat or scope. The lens turrent won't switch over. The lights don't dim properly. The xenon lamp won't auto focus.

I've been out the businees for ten years and I'm glad I never had to hassle with super exiting "extras".

Why not have a manual switch to move the masking from flat to scope? How difficult is it to slip one lens out of the holder and insert the other? It's simple to use the alan wrench to focus the lamp.

Are these "extras" really worth it? I don't think so. I'm all for automation but there comes a point where things get out of hand. But perhaps I'm wrong. How about this - a projector with voice recognition! You don't even have to push a button or turn a knob. You just say "change lenses to scope.......change the masking....and.....ok, start the movie please".

Rant over - I'm goint to dinner. I suppose I'll now get a good flogging by the "lens turrent aficionados"

Mike

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-19-2005, 10:20 PM:

It's called "a tradeoff" - a tradeoff for manual operations that things will run smoothly, yet having to continually pay someone to do all of this.

Or, a tradeoff that everything becomes "automated" to where buttons, whistles, selinoid springs, motorized cams,and finally, the era of software/computer based automations can do what man can with some positive report, but with the unreliable history being the tradeoff of eliminating man's talents and skills.

But, in the long run, proprietors have saved oggles of dough (which is the main force for all of this) from paying for man's talent of operating things so they can keep their back pocket "FAT" - and the back pockets of the employees "Thinner"

This why there are tekkies buzzing around everywhere - to keep these automated gadgets in operation.

-Monte

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-19-2005, 10:21 PM:

Personally, I'm not a big fan of turrets either. However they DO have their uses. Chief among them is that they virtually eliminate the chance that a lens will get lost, installed incorrectly or worse... DROPPED. [Eek!]

Also, automating a turret allows flat or scope films to be played on the same projector without stopping. I occasionally do a lens change on the fly using an old Simplex PR-1003 that doesn't have a turret but, hey, I just do it to show off. [Wink]

Okay, I don't do it very often. I just do it when I have to. But the point is that it CAN be done.

An automated lens change can be a beautiful thing when it's done right. (Common Height screen. Masking stops, turret and aperture plate stops are all set corretly. Timings adjusted the right way, etc.) I did a lens change for the opening week of Star Wars EP#1. When the trailers were over and the Fox logo hit the screen as it visibly doubled in size you could actually hear people in the audience gasp!

However, in today's theater environment, most people don't know how to make all this stuff work the right way, let alone have the time to set it up and get it working the way it needs to be. Most of the time these gewgaws amount to nothing more than expensive toys for the kiddies to break.

In theaters I used to service, if a lens turret would break I would fix it one time. Maybe twice if I liked the people in the booth. After that I would disable all the morized junk on the turret and convert them to manual operation. 90% of the time the damage stopped happening. The other 10% of the time they would wine because they actually had to exert themselves to flip the lenses.

Frankly, 90% of this junk is nothing more than a way for the manufacturers to bump up the price of equipment by selling people stuff they don't need.

The only automatic thing I really like is xenon lamp auto focus....PROVIDING it's set up right and used by a knowledgeable operator. After that, the only thing I like is a basic projector automation box because, without it, you couldn't run a 30 screen multiplex unless you hired a lot of operators. That just doesn't make sense.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-19-2005, 11:05 PM:

Randy,
I don't quite agree on the turrett issue... You just have to know which ones are good and which ones are bad..... TU-2000 is the very worst but......the turrett on the Millenneum is solid as a rock, Strong sure made up for all the ctap turrets they produced over the years. There are many other excellent turrets out there, mainly on European machines. The Kelmar turrett is also very good but takes getting used to in setting it up. I prefer manual over electric. The cost of the turrett is minimal and in some cases there is no extra cost for them when buying a new machine. Even the minor cost of a retrofit turret is sometimes less expensive than replacing a compact anamorphic or WA flat lens and both formats can be perfectly aligned on screen, no shimming or expensive lens offset bushings are needed!! Makes good sense in the every day, real world multiplex.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-19-2005, 11:52 PM:

I've come to the firm conclusion that both turrets and single lens machines suck in the "modern" multiplex.

The auto turrets do break too often (or become unreliable) too much for a cinema type operation.

The manual turrets have the advantage that the lenses dont roam around the booth and don't get dropped...mind you, I can't recall the last lens that was dropped in a single lens projector booth.

However, all turrets seem to not hold their alignments...either from flimsy design or from operator rough-housing. The built in PC adapter associated with most turrets is a nice feature but it seems to come at the expense of a flimsy alignment mechanism and a focus rack that is way to flimsy.

The single lens machine is my preference but there can be no doubt that the odds that the lenses will be slammed in and out such that focus will never be the same between lenses .000002 seconds after the tech sets them up.

The manual turrets seem to be the best compromise except the Scope lens is often used as the "handle" to rotate the turret in spite of the often supplied turning rod. Also the turrets tend to be slammed into position further ruining a previously good alignment.

In short, you are hosed with any lens system you have unless you have good operators...with good operators, any of the systems can be used with success. I would tend towards the auto turrets and pay to keep them up if you are going to employ idiots since that will protect your lenses the best.

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 09-20-2005, 12:26 AM:

My millenneum turrets have been running for nearly five years and I've yet to have to service one. The only quirk is when there is a power spike during a storm and you have to reset the breakers for the turret motors to settle out.

Beyond that, I'm quite pleased with their performance. They've saved a great deal of hassle and time, especially when you're expected to run a 16-plex one person at a time and have dozens of other concerns and needs from various advertisement companies. You need the automation to work for you in this environment.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-20-2005, 01:02 AM:

The only turrets I have been impressed with are the auto-Kinoton units. Indeed they lock down perfectly solid, but the method of aligning them isn't near as quick and easy to adjust as a Christie (probably the easiest to adjust). The TU-2000 turrets sucked all sorts of crap when used as intended, but if you just take the motors off, they become a very adjustable-friendly manual turret.

I hate, hate, hate the turrets Strong has been putting out in the last several years. I don't know what you guys are smoking, but those turrets are crap and don't stay aligned for shit.

To get to Mike's main point of this thread, automation is a very good thing IF you purchase a GOOD automation and quality equipment! Without that combination, the booth might as well be manual.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-20-2005, 01:07 AM:

Wolf,
I agree, That turrett is the best thing Strong has designed in the last 15 years!! This is one turret that rarely goes out of alignment even with much slamming around but Steve's statement on lens and turrett mis-handling is certainly a good point. In his post he seems to have realized that there are very few good operators around these days. The only thing I've noticed on that turret is that if the V slot in the bearings and rollers and V part of the Turrett get gunk on it that causes some drag, but thats easy to clean. My main beef is Strongs poorly designed controler on the auto version of the turret. Also, no one has made nor will they ever make a reliable aperature changer! I think an Olds 442 would be the best power for a reliable aperature changer [uhoh]

quote: Brad Miller
The TU-2000 turrets sucked all sorts of crap when used as intended, but if you just take the motors off, they become a very adjustable-friendly manual turret.

Brad, Its a good thing they are easy to adjust because you will be constantly adjusting them in real world operations [Big Grin]

. Todays Strong turret is the same one on the nearly 10 year old Simplex 1060's at the Cineplex's around here and they have not needed any tweeking since installation. I used to machine the fronts off Simplex's to install the TU-2000... I was probably the only one outside of the factory doing this at the time and did about 100 of them overall. The nylon stopper screws always flatten out and then the stop settings change. The alumnium is not hard enough to use steel stop screws either... those will eventually leave an indention in the striking point on the turret and the stop setting will still drift. A hardened steel stop plate wold work nicley though but costs to implement. They also develop play in the bearings and the bearings are way too small. The groove in the turret disk is also too shallow. The rotate stop piece wears because its also alumnium and you loose the stop settings for rotation. Removing the motors leaves you with NO LOCK for both lens and aperature and you have to rely on the weight of the lens to hold the turret in place... its a bad design overall! I could go on and on. I did have castings made up to make 50 more TU-2000's here and you're welcome to the lot of them any time you want to haul them away!!

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-20-2005, 01:34 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The manual turrets seem to be the best compromise except the Scope lens is often used as the "handle" to rotate the turret in spite of the often supplied turning rod. Also the turrets tend to be slammed into position further ruining a previously good alignment

..and I got after some booth clowns real hard for using that scope lens as a "handle" - since that focus ring is right there and they love to knock off the anamorphic focus when cranking that turret around (then they come whining to me why scope features are hard to focus).

Then, these booth clowns love to slam that TU-2000 turret around and knock off both settings, askewed the scope from square image, to where I've threatened them with their jobs if they don't take it easy.

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-20-2005, 01:45 AM:

Monte,
I was always amused that your "Boss" monitors so much stuff via closed circuit [eyes]

but doesn't seem to be monitoring the right stuff... [Roll Eyes]

the projectionists.... by that same method. Poor projection looses customers really fast and sometimes you have to weed out the bad operators. With all the added competition in your area he sure can't afford to loose very many more customers.

Mark

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 09-20-2005, 08:26 AM:

I currently have single lens Century projectors and have been thinking about putting in manual turrets (I've had bad experiences with automatic ones). What would be my best option? -Matt

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-20-2005, 08:52 AM:

Matt,

The only oprion is the Kelamr Turret.

Mark