Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Strong CNA-150 Automations = Ugh...

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Posted by Matt Hollis (Member # 2954) on 09-20-2005, 12:09 PM:

I just started working in a 12 screen theatre that uses these units. My first overall impression was pretty good. They looked very nice compared to the old cam timer automations I had been using previously. However, I have two huge complaints about the system that totally ruin it...

1. No provision for a start cue - This thing has 10 programs which can hold up to 10 cues each. You would think that Strong would allow functions such as C/O douser open/close on the automation. But do they? NO! Instead, they go with the old outdated time delay system that makes them no better than the old cam timer systems. This decision is just as bad as the Strong engineers' decison to put the payout arm upside down on their platters. Piss poor, indeed.

2. Unreliable cue detecting - This is probably more than likely the FP-350's fault, but I do not know how many times I have seen these things completely ignore cues. This results in a very unreliable and unstable automation.

Does anyone else here work with these things? If so, maybe there is something I am missing with the start cue. Also, is there a way to make the cue detector/failsafes more accurate. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-20-2005, 01:51 PM:

Start Cue? If the 150 is in any way similar to the 100 you could run it in interlock all the time (obviously making sure that only machines you want to interlock are in the same interlock group). With the CAN200 you would simply add a program step that does nothing, save for starting the motor, the next cue would then be the presentation proper.

The FP350 can be tempremental, make sure it's REALLY clean, and that it's not bent, the number if them I've seen where they've had a tug from the take-up, which has bent them a wee bit out of shape, which moves the film away from the sensor. You can also replace the sensor from time to time. Failing that, chuck it away and fit a real failsafe/cue detector, the FM35. I don't like the FP350 much as it doesn't sense film motion or run off.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-20-2005, 02:03 PM:

quote: Matt Hollis
No provision for a start cue

That is cue "ZERO is - your "start" cue.

When you press the start button, cue zero is the beginning of the program, which waits after the 7second delay before dowser opens. There is no need for a piece of cue tape on the leader for this (must be used to the 3Q system of Christie, which does need the start cue..and I agree the 3Q from Christie is tons better than the STRONG any day..but, you have to work with what you got and there is nothing you can do about it..) cue function.

You'll have to go into your program edit function and assign que zero your opening sequences for lights, curtain and sound, then continue from there til show end.

How are you placing your cues on the film for the FP-350 to read? If your placing the cues lengthwise on the film, you're going to have to replace that cuetape once a week due to the cracking of the aluminum of the tape.

What I do for the FP-350 to read cuetape is to take a small piece of cuetape and fold it across the edge of the film, inbetween the pair of sprocket holes, then take the splicer and punch out what is overlapping the sprocket holes. Then, on occasion, draw a piece of splicing tape across this cue to keep it from cracking, but this method will make the aluminum last tons longer and the FP-350 will read it every time.

Also, as mentioned, keep the underside of the FP-350 clean and wipe off the LED sensors underneath so the unit can sense film travel.

thx-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-20-2005, 02:18 PM:

Matt if you search the archives you will see a couple of years ago where I was having the same problems you were. Ultimately Strong was unable (and unwilling) to offer any useful support and instead chose to take the avenue of blaming operator error (which is bullshit).

DON'T try and achieve a start cue by running each individual machine in interlock!!! It creates a clusterfuck of random problems you do not want to deal with! Instead here is what I did:

Cue 0 = house lights up / non-sync (internally change douser opening to 9 seconds...the maximum allowed)

Cue 1 = (the actual "start cue" at the end of your leader) = house lights mid / SR (or whatever your trailer sound format is)

Then make up your leaders accordingly. Let's say for example you want 100 foot leaders and let's say it takes 25 feet of leader to get from the aperture to the fartherest center ring on the takeup platter. Then make up 25 feet of whatever film + 10 feet of frameline film (to thread on) + 65 feet of black film. This way when you press START the projector motor will run for 9 seconds, giving the frameline leader just enough time to pass through the projector before the 9 second douser timeout happens, the the machine will just run looking for Cue #1 which will actually start the show.

*Remember your black film must be TRULY 100% OPAQUE, not that "mylar black" crap you see most dealers selling that gets easily scratched and isn't true black. I can supply this for you if you need.

*Also a huge warning, my CNA-150 timers were very intelligent in the fact that whenever someone was standing by the machine when the timer hit zero it would start, but whenever the projectionist was busy with something else the timers would count to zero and then display the normal "ready to start" message. Fortunately I was able to sneak up on them several times and watch it counting down to verify that the countdown DID complete and the guys weren't all just forgetting to set the timers (which is of course what Strong blamed it on). Freakin' pieces of shit machines! [Mad]

*Do you have Strong platters? If so there are good odds that the takeup elevator has "crashed" hard on some of your projectionists because the design has such a short travel distance. I've seen that actually bend the rollers in the failsafe that hold the film up against the sensors downward such that even with a fresh piece of cue tape it couldn't read reliably. Check that too.

Posted by Heath Dutton (Member # 3265) on 09-20-2005, 02:32 PM:

I have used these units for the past couple years. They are the only automation controls I've worked with but they aren't bad once you get used to the funky programming.

As far as interlocking, these boards provide a flawless opperation as long as your network stays in-tact. And the built-in menus are very usefull for testing your network. I've run up to a 7 screen interlock by myself and no issues at all.

However, their manual for this thing is absolute CRAP... All of my manuals I have are for the outdated version of the software, but still even the newer manuals online do not explain every feature of the software. There is (I think) a feature for setting the cue sensitivity/duration. I may be wrong about that though, because the feature isn't covered in my manual, I just noticed it by browsing the menus.

It does have the same weekness as all automations, that it is only as good as your cue-detector and cue-tape. I'd start there if you are missing cues.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-20-2005, 02:39 PM:

quote: Heath Dutton
There is (I think) a feature for setting the cue sensitivity/duration.

That'd be in the FP-350 manual since they are a unit by themselves not related to the CNA manuals.

Posted by Heath Dutton (Member # 3265) on 09-20-2005, 03:07 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
That'd be in the FP-350 manual since they are a unit by themselves not related to the CNA manuals.

I was reffering to an option in the CNA menu... I believe under supervisionary/setup there is an option for "Cue Factor" that is by default set to .001. I suppose I've assumed this is the minimum duration for the signal from the cue-detector to be accepted, but this is only an assumtion since this menu option doesn't exist in my manual.

Being the noob here I'm probably wrong tho [Confused]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-20-2005, 03:13 PM:

I see that you used to play with CPA-10s' that had all of this readilly available to us by way of actual setting changes - both in the supervisory and the program setups.

These are what I play with are the CPA-10's and with all of those nifty "batch file" lines to work with.

But, as time marched on, STRONG wanted to do something simpler and still have the functionibility of the CPA-10, and "poof" out came the CNA series.

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 09-21-2005, 10:08 AM:

I know what Heath is talking about with the poor CNA 150 instruction manual. It doesn't even cover half of the functions you can use, with many of them being very important like timers. Strange problem Brad had with the timers, they've never failed on me like that, though I hardly use them unless I absolutely have to.

Posted by Tom Lewandowski (Member # 3371) on 09-23-2005, 02:43 PM:

I work for Eprad and we designed and manufacture the automations for Strong.

Actually all the CNA automations have the ability to have a start cue (we call it a sync cue). If you want to run the CNA-100 or CNA-150 with a start cue just set the automations 'Sync Loop' number to '0' and enable sync by pressing the 'Sync' button (sync light will be on).

Add your start cue to the film at the end of the leader. When the 'Start' button is pressed, the projector and lamphouse will start. When the automation sees the first cue it will execute the program and all your settings for 'Cue 0' will occur. Keep in mind the sound changeover will NOT occur at 'Cue 0' but will wait for the time delay set in supervisory (default is 7 seconds). If you want the changeover to occur exactly at the end of the leader you will have to move your cue back the appropriate amount.

You can have as many automations on Sync Loop '0' as you want. Each automation will still operate independently.

I did discover a small bug through testing based on information posted on another thread on this forum a couple of years ago. When the show ends the automation will continue to display 'Running' even after the projector and lamphouse have turned off. The remote status panels will also indicate the show is still running. The show can be finished by pressing the 'Stop' button then pressing the 'Cue Input' button (without pressing the 'Start' button). The next time we make changes to the software, this bug will be fixed.

quote: Brad Miller
(internally change douser opening to 9 seconds...the maximum allowed)

The range for the changeover delay is 3 seconds to 59 seconds although if you set the automation for Sync Loop '0' as described you will not need to change the changeover time (unless you want it shortened).

We also designed and manufacture the FP-350 for strong.

For the FP-350's missing cues, I would suggest as others have that you make sure the sensor is close to the roller. It is possible for the metal bracket that the PC board is mounted on to be bent and the sensor may be too far away. The bracket should be straightened so the sensor is closer to the roller. I would recommend less than 0.1" distance between the sensor and the roller.

We also created the manuals for the CNA automations. I would recommend getting the latest manual. We continually add features to our automations based on customer requests and older manuals may not have the information you are looking for. You can download the latest manuals from Strong’s web site.

If you download the manual and still cannot find the information you are looking for, please let me know.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-23-2005, 02:59 PM:

quote: Tom Lewandowski
The range for the changeover delay is 3 seconds to 59 seconds although if you set the automation for Sync Loop '0' as described you will not need to change the changeover time (unless you want it shortened).

Huh??? The CNA150s I was using wouldn't let me go higher than 9.

quote: Tom Lewandowski
If you want to run the CNA-100 or CNA-150 with a start cue just set the automations 'Sync Loop' number to '0' and enable sync by pressing the 'Sync' button (sync light will be on).

I tried exactly that as mentioned by Strong and it caused all sort of weird behavior, right down to shutting down projectors mid-show.

Since you are an actual Eprad rep, any idea why sometimes the timers count down to 0 and then switch back to "ready to start" (or whatever the verbage is) without actually starting the show? This batch still does that.

If you have any manuals that are more updated than what is here, please email them to me and I will get them added.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-24-2005, 05:02 AM:

quote: Tom Lewandowski
The show can be finished by pressing the 'Stop' button then pressing the 'Cue Input' button (without pressing the 'Start' button).

..this is how I complete a cycle when I'm one cue short on the film, or if I mistart a feature, want to go back to the beginning and don't want to use the "resume" feature: I would "cue input" until I'm back to "Learned Cue Times", then "Ready to Run" with the CPA-10's, or "zero" on the CNA-100's. Then, I'm starting a clean program.

or..just press "Start" and "Stop" at the same time - like a reboot of sorts.

-Monte

Posted by Tom Lewandowski (Member # 3371) on 09-26-2005, 09:04 AM:

Brad,

I ran a number of tests here using 4 automations (2 CNA-150 and 2 CNA-100) all set to sync loop 0. I ran the equivalent of 50 to 100 shows and I did not have any problems with the other automations shutting down while running on sync loop 0.

Although I was not able to duplicate the problem with the timer counting to 0:00 and not starting the show I did discover the timer could be cancelled and the screen would be set to 'Ready to Run' while running in sync loop 0. This occurs when the counter is counting down and another automation using sync loop 0 reaches the end of the show. The countdown will be cancelled and 'Ready to Run' will be displayed. This occurs at any time in the count down, not only when the timer reaches 0:00.

I was not able to duplicate the problem when NOT running in sync. You said you have problems when running in sync loop 0 so I assume not are not using sync loop 0 when running your shows so I'm not sure what the problem can be.

There definitly appears to be some interaction between automations while on sync loop 0 when there shouldn't be. This could be causing many of your problems.

I will notify our software people about the problem and they may be able to find the problem even though I can't duplicate it here. They should also be able to fix the end of show problem associated with sync loop 0. I am assuming that whatever is causing the end of show problem may also be causing the other automations on sync loop 0 to shut down.

I would be nice to know the version of software your CNA-150s are running. That way I can set up a test here using the same version and our software developer can look at that specific version for the problem.

Also, I will email the most recent manuals for our products so you can add them to your site.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
or..just press "Start" and "Stop" at the same time - like a reboot of sorts.

Yes, the automation can be reset by holding the 'Stop' button and pressing and releasing the 'Start' button. This will cancel the current show and return the automation to it's between show state.

Tom

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-26-2005, 02:33 PM:

I'll try and look up the software version next time I am down there to see if you can duplicate the effect.

Any tips on how to make the cues last longer? We found using Neumade "Aucuta" cues lasted much longer than anything else, but still after a month of playing the cues would be missing more than reading.

Posted by Matt Hollis (Member # 2954) on 09-27-2005, 01:04 AM:

Alright, thanks for the info guys.

Brad, that is pretty much the cue setup I have.

Cue 0 - Lights Up, Non-Sync
Start Button - Motor On, Lamp On
8 Seconds - C/O Open
Cue 1 - Lights Down, Sound SR (Autodigital takes care of SRD)
Cue 2 - Lights Up at Credits
Cue 3 - Non-Sync, Showend
Film Run Out - Motor Off, Lamp Off

I just think it would be so much better to have Cue 1 be able to open the C/O douser that way you can have it open exactly when you want instead of having to rely on the delay. Also, you could use an infinite amount of leader. If you can make the C/O close with the showend key, why is there not just a key for C/O open, too? Stupid!

We should retrofit with CA-21s...

Matt

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-27-2005, 06:01 AM:

quote: Matt Hollis
you can have it open exactly when you want instead of having to rely on the delay

..Really, the easiest way to have this work for you, is to have your leaders that are the countdown type. With this kind of leads, is to put the figure "8" in the framebox when threading. For the countdown leaders are 18 frames between numbers. Thus with the "8" in the framebox, this will be the right amount for film for the 7 second delay until dowser opens.

When we would do changeover reels, we would always frame between "8" and "7" on the framebox so that the changeover scene would just be in the aperture as we would hit the dowser button.

If you if you have the time and patience, is to mark on the non-countdown leads where the figure "8" would be on the lead to frame up on the framebox, by measuring on a table the 24frames for a second. Then measure 7 of these 24frames per second in length, and this is where your mark on the leader would be to frame on for the 7 second delay when the lead splice would just go into the aperture when dowser opens.

Done this many times.....

Just have to work with the automations that you have, instead of fighting with them, or wanting to make changes to suit your fancy.

Granted, I do love the 3Q system of the Christie, for this automation IS the cue based system that is so easy and matches what you want to happen - using a cue to open up the dowser and get things rolling.

But, unfortunately, I'm "stranded" with these CPA-10's and CNA-100's that are delay based openings (love the SPA-7's since they have the adjustable open/close dowser settings...) and have to make the best of what I have, thus I work with marking the leads to where I need to thread them in the framebox for the best presentation that I could have....

-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-27-2005, 02:01 PM:

But that defeats the purpose of a start cue. With the "8 in the gate / countdown timer" controlled douser opening, this forces one of two situations:

#1 You have to thread at or near the "8" on the countdown leader. That is the wrong way to do it because it puts you handling the film very close to the parts that will be projected. Even when running changeovers, plenty of extra head and tail leader should be used and then the motor turned on and leader run down to the 8, as dirt does migrate from where the film is handled.

#2 Assuming you are running a platter, the idea is to not fire the motor unnecessarily. With the standard CNA-type of automation setup, in order to use a proper amount of platter leader, each show requires two firings of the projector motor. Many argue this is unnecessary wear to the equipment.

Maybe Eprad could solve this in an upcoming software fix using interlock group 9 or something.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-28-2005, 12:43 AM:

Okey, then there's another option when using all of that extra length ahead of the "8": When it's time for show start, hit the motor switch and let the lead run down until the "8" hits the framebox, then hit the "run" button and turn off the motor switch since automation has taken over the operation.

Had to do that a few times with interlock head leads on the film and running single machine.

..some ideas.. - Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-28-2005, 12:46 AM:

Running starts are fine, and more common than many people realize. Just remember you can't just hit start when the 8 hits the gate. You have to do it sooner to make up for the ramp-up of the motor that is already up to full speed.

Of course if the projectionist forgets to turn off the motor, he could end up with a lovely mess of film if something goes wrong.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-28-2005, 12:53 AM:

LOL .... like a good 6 reels of film on the floor when the takeup platter decides to die for some dumb reason-like right after the previews.

Saw that one once, yet it was a simple mess to gather up since the operator took the end of the pile of film, attached it to the ring, hooked up the MUT to that deck and wound all of that "spagetti" back on the platter heads out. Then, he had to take that heads out, run it through the MUT's rollers to the other deck to get the film direction back to where it supposed to be.

-Monte

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-28-2005, 08:03 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
LOL .... like a good 6 reels of film on the floor when the takeup platter decides to die for some dumb reason-like right after the previews.

Saw that one once, yet it was a simple mess to gather up since the operator took the end of the pile of film, attached it to the ring, hooked up the MUT to that deck and wound all of that "spagetti" back on the platter heads out. Then, he had to take that heads out, run it through the MUT's rollers to the other deck to get the film direction back to where it supposed to be.

Hopefully, they used a film cleaner to remove all the dirt that was picked up from the floor! [Eek!]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-28-2005, 12:51 PM:

Yea, ran that print though the kelmar with FG on it for a good dozen times. Got it pretty well cleaned up. Also, where the film was on the floor, was carpeted, but the film still picked up a good amount of "fuzz bunnies" - carpet snell being a tight woven carpet.

Luckilly, the operator there knew now to remedy all of this instead of a "booth clown" ruining everything from freaking out.

-Monte

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 09-30-2005, 11:46 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
For the countdown leaders are 18 frames between numbers.

Leaders that count seconds have 23 frames between numbers.
Leaders that count "film feet" have 15 frames between numbers.