Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Splicing together black cells

This is topic Splicing together black cells in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007462

Posted by Dan Chilton (Member # 2288) on 09-21-2005, 01:39 PM:

This is a newbie question, but I'm hoping one of the experts here can give me some tips. When you have a trailer that fades to black, obscuring frame lines, and a movie that fades in from black, how do you know where to cut and splice? The soundtrack doesn't give any hints. [Confused]

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 09-21-2005, 01:47 PM:

What I do, is take your clear leader and line it up with a visible frame line before the fade out, stretch out the leader, and cut as far to the end of the trailer as I can. Pretty easy way, or you can cut where the trailer ends and the trailer ID info starts and hope that its in frame. I'm sure these other guys have better techniques though.

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 09-21-2005, 02:04 PM:

For trailers, you usually have a tail section with a bunch of color patterns and other garbage that is all in frame. I just measure back some frames into the black from one of those frames and chop. The trailer has always come out in frame for me doing it that way. Some trailers actually provide framing markers for chopping anyway, which makes it easier.

Posted by Alexander Smith (Member # 1769) on 09-21-2005, 02:09 PM:

As Jeremy suggests, using a bit of mylar leader (printed with
frame lines) is the easiest way to do it. I think of it as a
portable frame counter. My "film counter" is exactly 2 seconds
long which helps us place cues for our automation in _just_
the right place also.

It's worth remembering that the [optical] sound is 20 frames
ahead of the picture when editing trailers together.

Alex.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-21-2005, 02:15 PM:

Check out all of this trailer editing/splicing in the "tips" section of FT, and Brad beat me to it..(LOL, thx Brad)

-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-21-2005, 02:15 PM:

The TIPS page has some guidelines on where to cut trailers for assembly, but that was made about 5 years ago and many studios have changed their leaders, so they aren't all exactly like what is shown...but the principles are the same.

Do beware that nowadays the labs have been getting sloppy and rather than cutting 1 frame over from the head/tail into the black you should cut 2 frames over. Otherwise you get the negative tape lines showing in the picture. (Hold the film up to the light, look through it and you will see.)

If you are in a hurry, use the splicer technique. Halfway down that page in the link above you will see how it works at the picture of a Neumade splier. [thumbsup]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-21-2005, 02:29 PM:

Every booth should have either a sync block or a Neumade Film Measuring Machine. If yours doesn't, you can take an old sprocket and mark where the framelines will fall (a 16-tooth sprocket covers exactly four frames). Then, line up a known-good frameline with the frameline marked on the splicer/sync block and pull the film through the machine. Then, note where the framelines should be and cut there. Simple and easy. Be sure to cut before or after any sync pops or handwriting on the soundtrack.

For reels that begin with a fadein from black, count exactly 47 frames of black after the "3" (Academy) or "2" (SMPTE) on the leader before cutting. For reels that end with a fade to black, count exactly 24 frames (occasionally 18...check another reel to see what scheme was used on that print) after the frame with the last changeover cue mark.

Whenever I go into a new or ill-equipped booth, I bring along a film can that contains (among other items) a few feet of black frameline leader, which has saved quite a bit of time.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-21-2005, 02:40 PM:

Course, I've trained my eyes in looking at the leader and finding the first frame of the beginning of that reel's picture, tik the edge of the film with a marker and go from there-even on the very dark, fade in/out scenes.

Another old trick to find fadeout framelines was to find the second set of cuemarks and to down about 2ft and you can find that negative splice at the end.

Lotsa tricks to use in doing a "changeover" splice.

-Monte

Posted by Heath Dutton (Member # 3265) on 09-21-2005, 04:57 PM:

Well, my solution is somewhat less conventional...

I hated using the clear leaders for doing this because they would easily slip, so I looked through the projection supply room and found an old top cam that had been replaced (because it was leaky).

I took the top cam and some parts of old broken film-clamps and made a mount for it. So it grabs onto the side of the make-up table with the cam facing me... I then used a sharpie to mark out the frames between the teeth, and voila! My frame checker! Of course this would only work if you have a spare cam lying around and it's teeth are divisible by 4, but it's worked wonders for me. I use it on almost every print and havn't had a mis-splice in about a year.

An old projectionist came by recently and let me borrow his frame-checker, which was made very much the same way (but with an intermittent I believe).

Posted by Dan Chilton (Member # 2288) on 09-21-2005, 04:58 PM:

Great tips. I had read the TIPS page awhile back, but I completely forgot about the 8 frame trick with the Neumade splicer.

Damn you Broken Flowers trailer being attached to Me & You & Everyone We Know! I have to wait until tonight to correct my splicing error... until then, I'm destined to reframe it after the splice. Argh. [Mad]

Posted by Heath Dutton (Member # 3265) on 09-21-2005, 05:09 PM:

it shouldn't be hard to fix a splice if you notice how it is out of frame on screen (for a quick fix)...

If it jumps up or down 50% of the screen, just take out 2 notches and resplice. If it jumps up 25% then take out 1 notch. If it jumps down 25% then take out 3 notches...

Is my math right there guys?

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 09-21-2005, 05:30 PM:

Heath,

Correcting a misframe at any point in a print or trailer pack is done as you described.

Your math is just upside down (as the image is in the gate). If the frame line moves up from the bottom of the screen 25%, you need to remove 3 sprocket holes from the tail of the outgoing film. If the frame line drops from the top 25% then you need to remove the one extra sprocket hole of film from the tail of the outgoing film. It is best to remake the original splice to prevent lost continuity and extra splices.

Your thinking is good but you did not account for the inverted and reversed image in the gate.

KEN

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 09-21-2005, 07:33 PM:

But is the outgoing film cut out of frame or is it the incoming film that's cut out of frame? You don't know unless you re-make the splice, measuring where the frame lines are. *That* is the correct thing to do (short of doing it right the first time [Smile]

). Otherwise, the next film to get that trailer (or feature, if that's where the splice is) stands a 50% chance of being out of frame because you took a shortcut.

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 09-22-2005, 02:15 AM:

If ever there's a mis-splice, I correct it the old fassioned way by taking my frame counter to the splice in question and actually measuring from each end which side is short. I've had projectionists who've worked twice as long in the booth as I have actually try to guess on the screen position and get it wrong all day. I come in and get it corrected for absolute certain the first try because I don't want to have to hassle with it more than one time.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-22-2005, 02:30 AM:

(..wonder if anyone know how to fix a misframe splice during the scrolling credits.....)

-Monte

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 09-22-2005, 03:02 AM:

On out of frame splices:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
(..wonder if anyone know how to fix a misframe splice during the scrolling credits.....)

You have to look very very hard at the picture to see where the letters cut short because of the frameline.
Though if you can see it's off by a certain amount on the sreen you can pretty much hack it shorter by that amount. It's quick and dirty but it works.
For everything else you should count back from where you know it's in frame. It's preferable that you do this at the bench and not on the platter since it's about 10x more of a pain in the ass.
On new trailers you can usually get away with counting back from the crud on the leader. Heed Brad's advice. Negative splices suck!
And I think everyone above has already covered feature leaders.

On the splicer method:
I've been using the splicer method to count frames.
Most splicers I've used are 8 frames wide.

On cue placement:
All our machines are the same configuration so I count the distance from where cues are detected in relation to the film in the gate. I then add 5 frames to compensate for delay.
This way the lights go down exactly when they should and come up just as the credits roll.

--Dom

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 09-22-2005, 03:23 AM:

it's a good idea to examine the entire stretch of black between the trailer fade-out and where you intend to cut, backlit. those negative splices can be rather arbitrarily located. sometimes there'll even be a frame that says "tail" in the middle of the black where it's easy not to see it until it's on screen. pretty superfluous if you ask me.

speaking of splices in the credits. i got a film once (biggie and tupac) that had a lab splice in the credits. i only checked for the frameline in one direction when i removed that splice, and sure enough it popped out of frame when it ran. the lab splice must have jumped a sprocket during printing.

carl