Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Projector wont run, bulb lights..it just stopped.

This is topic Projector wont run, bulb lights..it just stopped. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007475

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-27-2005, 07:10 PM:

Christie P35GP
Christie SLC 30 or 40 I believe 4000watt bulb house.

We have an issue with one of our projectors and I'm counting on one of you really smart guys to give me some pointers. We were running a movie last night and the projector just shut down. The lamp can still be turned on, but the motor will not...motor. All the gears turn freely. I thought possibly a diode was bad, but wanted to see if that was plausible before digging in and removing them. Anything else to check? Or does a bad diode seem like the most likely problem. Thanks for any help.

ps...none of the breakers seemed to turn off either, so thats what really confuses me, usually if its a diode, the breakers turn off.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 09-27-2005, 07:32 PM:

Did you say the projector motor will not operate? If so it has nothing to do with the lamp. Does the manual motor switch work?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-27-2005, 07:34 PM:

Do Christie projectors have diodes in them? [Confused]

Are you running manually or with automation? If using automation, have you tried turning on the motor switch manually? If so, is the result the same? Have you checked all wiring connections (esp. switch and/or automation to motor)? It could be an issue with automation (if present), wiring, or the motor itself.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-27-2005, 08:18 PM:

Yes, Christies have diodes and they are VERY annoying since they seem to go out a lot (or at least recently). The movie was running, then boom, it just stopped. The switch to manually start the motor does not start the motor, upon threading the projector and pushing start, it does not start. The switch was replaced JUST in case, but as I thought, still nothing. I am now suspecting the motor is burnt out. We had a strange electrical smell from that projector about 3 months ago, but had no problems....NOW we have a problem.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-27-2005, 08:20 PM:

Does motor turn over freely? Are there capacitors on motor? If you spin the motor with power on, will it accelerate & run? Louis

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-27-2005, 08:33 PM:

check for a bad or loose motor wiring connection. Check for wiring that may be tied together with lug caps that could have come loose.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-27-2005, 09:16 PM:

I will check on those two items first thing tomorrow. Does anyone know if there is a diagram or manual of the motor on that particular projector? I dont know what model or make or anything about it. I was hoping to download the manual/schematics before tomorrow.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-27-2005, 10:21 PM:

There is a huge 3 part pdf download in the manuals section here for that projector that is "the bible" to that machine.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-27-2005, 10:42 PM:

I thought I had the whole thing, but I'll look over it again. The reason I ask is I have a motor (the EXACT same motor) for that projector, but it is wired incorrectly. I was hoping it would be easy to change the wiring. Our Christies have 2 leads coming out of the motor, where this motor was wired with 4 leads. Do you know if that would be an easy fix?

UPDATE: the projector ran after cooling down. And ran for the next show. Apparently heat is the issue, but why would the LAMP still turn on, but the motor not run? Usually its the other way around. Suggestions?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-27-2005, 11:28 PM:

The projector motor is about to shit the bed on you!

The motor and xenon lamp are two discrete systems. Neither affects the other. They only APPEAR to be related because the automation controller inside the lamphouse controls them for you.
The projector motor is dying. The xenon lamp is perfectly healthy.

Is it one of those Bodine (Brand name.) motors? I don't much care for those. Then have a tendancy to self-destruct.

Mode of failure is just as you have seen.
Motor starts out running fine. After a while it simply overheats and stops working. The motor has internal thermal protection. After the motor cools down the protection system resets itself. It will begin working again. This cycle repeats. After a few times, the failure is permanent.

The symptoms you see are a precursor to the final failure. Order a replacement now. By the time the replacement arrives, your motor should be on its last legs.

If the motor you have in stock appears like it has the wrong number of leads, take the cover off the old one and look inside. It is a good bet the original will have four leads as well. Upon installation, the leads have to be connected together in the correct order to achieve the correct configuration for your setup. (Voltage, rotation direction & phase, IIRC.)

There should be a data sheet in the box with the new motor. It will tell you how to wire. If, not copy the wiring of the old one. If you aren't sure of what to do, best bet is to hire an electrician. Consider the $$ as insurance.

Your best bet would be to get a Leeson (Brand) motor.
I prefer them much better.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-27-2005, 11:34 PM:

Yeah, it's called "using Bodine motors" - These Bodines just don't have the starup torque as does some other motors do, especially like the Leeson motors.

What happens when Bodines get tired and get some age on them, they begin to heat up and the thermal inside opens up causing this shutdown. Then, you have to wait for the cooldown for the thermal closes to continue operation.

If this happens too frequently, time for a motor changeout to replace that thermal fuse inside.

I went through a good half dozen Bodines on P35GPS machines with this same problem.

Also, this is a good warning tip to anyone who uses any Bodine motor on any projector, for I even had Bodines, mounted on Simplex 5-star heads do this shutdown.

Oughta check into Leesons for reference sakes if these are manufactured for the Christie series.

-Monte

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-27-2005, 11:40 PM:

Sync motors use permenant magnets for there fields and over time they loose there strength and then the motor looses torque
It will often then devlop slip and run below sync speed which increase the heat inside (also the fan blade s at the ned of some of the bodines are turning slower then cooling less and the motor thermals out and stops

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 09-28-2005, 06:35 AM:

There is a fan in the end of the motor on my Christies. Look and see if it is clogged with crud. If so, this may be your answer. Also, see if the capacitor could be bloated and leaking. I've seen less kill a perfectly good motor.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-28-2005, 07:32 AM:

The capacitor was my first thought as well based on the bad smell we breifly had from this projector a couple months ago. I will check all suggestions this morning. Thanks a million!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-28-2005, 09:33 AM:

The bad smell is part of this brand of motor's failure profile.

As failure prone as Bodine motors are, they usually give you plenty of warning:

1) They start to smell like burning wires. (The smell of burning capacitors is a totally different.)
2) They go into thermal shutdown mode. 30-90 minutes later they start working again. It seems as if nothing was ever wrong.
3) They go in and out of thermal shutdown mode a few times.
4) One day they just quit working all together.

After the first time the motor shuts down, it might not happen again for a couple of days. (Maybe more. Maybe less.) Then it's going to happen again and again. When it does, the time between failures will get shorter and shorter. Eventually, the thing won't work at all. This process takes anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks.

I have seen no less than a half dozen Bodine motors die in this exact same way.

The only solution is to replace the motor. I suppose you could take it to a motor repair shop and have it rebuilt but that could take a L-O-N-G time.

The motor is going to die on you. It will put that house totally out of commission until the motor is replaced. Depending on how fast your company orders replacement parts and how fast you can get it replaced, that projector could remain out of commission for several days.

Get it replaced right away before you find yourself with a full house and a dead projector. If your company has a tech, this problem can be solved with just a phone call.

If you can specify a Leeson motor for replacement, it will benefit you greatly in the long run. Leeson are much more reliable.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-28-2005, 12:20 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
It will often then devlop slip and run below sync speed which increase the heat inside

Apart from the fan turning slower, why would the motor run hotter when running below sync speed?

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-28-2005, 12:45 PM:

Yoy may also want to check the breaker in the wall that supplies power to the motor: we had one leg of a three-phase breaker fail intermitteltly that would cause the motor to just randomly stop in the middle of a show while the automation sound and lamp kept right on going (causing many burned up spots in a print). After checking everything out several times (I too thought the motor was a goner) and calling several people it was discovered that the breaker has burned up one leg and would connect for a bit then heat up and disconnect, and reconnect after cooling down. Just another thing to check.

-Aaron

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-28-2005, 04:26 PM:

They are Bodine motors. I installed a new Bodine motor (its all we got) and the motor seems to run at 1/2 speed. With a little extra nudge we can coax it into normal speed. The motor seems to be VERY hot for running only a few seconds at a time to test it. We replaced THAT motor with another motor, and the same thing happened. We then put the original motor back in and the SAME thing happened. All seem to want to run about 1/2 speed. We thought there might be some drag on the motor, slowing it down, but we removed the motor and held it while starting it up...half speed for a few seconds, then it jumps up to full speed by it self (this while its removed from the projector, installed, it wont reach full speed unless we give it a little extra help). I don't think all three motors can be bad..which leads me to something else electrical in the projector. I'm no electrician, so I I have no clue where to even begin looking. Ideas? This really sucks!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-28-2005, 05:53 PM:

Actually I've never had a Bodine Motor fail on a Christie P35GP and there are a ton of Christes out here in the Mt. States. A properly running Christie places almost no load on that motor. The motor you have may just be a 120/220 motor or may require a start and/or run capacitor. There are several versions of that motor and a call to Jum Greatz at Christie Digital giving him the part number on the motor may be helpful to you for getting the proper hookup for that particuluar motor! There are no Leesons available for the P35GP that I am aware of. Generally tracing the 120 volt line with a meter will show where its lost. Start at the automation wiring terminals for the motor circuit. BE sure the 120 volt feed is good forst, then leaving the manual motor switch on go right down the line and up into the projector. This is as simple as tourbleshooting gets [Cool]

. you could also work backwards starting at the motor... which ever is the more convenient for you.

quote: Gordon McLeod
Sync motors use permenant magnets for there fields and over time they loose there strength and then the motor looses torque

Gord,

None of the Bodine sync motors are permanent magnet. they are all 4 pole with machined qyadrants in the armature that lock the rotor to the frequency.

Frank,

Geez Drank.....The number one rule in this buisness is dont touch anyting until you are damed sure that you know what to do. Simply trying something as you have now done generally causes alot more trouble and greater expense. If the new motor has smelled in the least fomr over heating as it sounds then the enamel on the wire used for the windings has gotten mighty hot and that motor is also ruined. Call Jum Greatz at Christie tech support. Jim is a real nice guy and I'm sure would be happy ro help you.

Mark

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 09-28-2005, 05:53 PM:

Is there a contactor in your Christies? One of the contacts on it could be burned up and causing your motors to fry.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-28-2005, 06:27 PM:

Jim used to be an EDWARDS tekkie before REG took over. Him and I had many-a-conversations on Christie topics. I do believe his last name is Grayton - I know it's hard to hear him pronounce his last name over the phone at times...

-Monte

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-28-2005, 06:59 PM:

Mark,

When the motor was stopping (assuming from overheating as many have suggested) I did nothing other than take the old motor off and replace it with a NEW motor. I never suspected anything other problems. It was supposed to be nothing more than a motor swap, after all was said and done, THEN I run into problems. Had I know this would have happened, beleive me, I wouldnt have even bothered with it. I've swapped out a motor before with no problems. I suspect deeper problems than simple overheating of an old motor....somethings up.

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 09-28-2005, 07:16 PM:

Frank--

Don't panic..... just remember that the solution to ANY problem
lies within the problem itself. [thumbsup]

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-28-2005, 07:27 PM:

...If only the solution was as evident as the problem..or..the problem was invisible as the solution. [Confused]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-28-2005, 11:14 PM:

Frank,
You mentioned that the new motor had four leads and the old motor had two.... I suspect that is whats up..... If the old motor had two and the new had four how did you just swap it out?

Mark

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-28-2005, 11:46 PM:

If I guess right, Mark is hinting at the same thing I'm thinking.

If you look closely, those four wires from the replacement motor aren't simply hot/neut. leads. You have to hook them up the correct way or else the motor won't work right.

There's a datasheet that comes with that motor. If there isn't a datasheet, there's a diagram underneath the cover on the wiring compartment.

There are markings on the wires. It's something like "X1", "X2", "Y1" and "Y2". For instance, you might have to hook "Y2" and "X2" together. Then "X1" becomes the hot and "Y1" becomes neut.
I don't remember exactly. It's been a while since I worked on one of these. I think you get the idea.

If you have 110v power you have to hook the wires up one way. If you have 220v you have to do it another.
If you want the motor to spin CW there's one way. If you want it to spin CCW there's another way.
Some motors even can be operated on single phase or 3ø.

The old motor LOOKED like it only had two wires because the other ones are inside the wiring compartment on the back of the motor. The new one had all of them just hanging out because the manufacturer doesn't know which way you might want them to be hooked up.

Another thing is the start/run capacitor(s). Sometimes they are pre-installed. Other times they are not. You have to check. I forget the details because it's been so long since I did it. Again, there is either a datasheet in the box with the new motor or there is a nameplate that will tell you this information.

You have to read the information on that datasheet and/or nameplate then act accordingly. Otherwise you'll end up with a motor that won't work.

One thing I almost always do is get out my volt meter and check the line voltage before I start.

1) It is a safety measure. If I'm working on a different voltage and I don't know it I could be in danger. There was one time when I got wise and didn't check. It turned out I was working on a 277 volt circuit and didn't even know it! One false move and I could have been killed!

2) It can help diagnose hidden problems. IF the voltage is different than you expected you now have the option of checking other components in the equipment to see if the problem lies elsewhere. One minute with the volt meter can save you several hours worth of work if you use it correctly.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 09-29-2005, 12:27 AM:

The wires were labelled. 1, 4, 5, 8. I called the supplier of the motor and they advised me the correct combo. It was a matter of twisting the four wires into two pairs. If I needed the motor to spin the other direction, I would swap #5 with #8 for example. Even if that was the problem for that particular motor, that wouldnt explain the other two motors doing the same thing. They only have two leads coming out, so there was no chance to screw that up. I understand what your saying, but I think I took care of that problem by calling the manufacturer and getting the correct wire combo.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-29-2005, 01:59 AM:

True, I thought that the motor for the P35's only had two leads running down to that terminal strip inside the bottom of the case. Cord looks like a regular 18/2 round cord with white and black leads.

Heard to that reversing leads on these 4 lead motors will take out the start windings pretty bad.

-Monte

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 02-06-2009, 04:36 AM:

It has been 1226 days since the last post.

Posted by Janusz Antkiewicz (Member # 5118) on 02-06-2009, 04:36 AM:

Hello Everyone! [Smile]

Since I can't see any separate forum for introductions let me introduce myself with my 1st post.
Keeping it short and skipping the "name-and-age-and-nationality" part (you see that very well) I'd like to say that I'm not a very experienced projectionist (to say the least [Smile]

) and would rather watch you guys trying to figure out things that crop up than offer my opinion.
I think you're all doing an amazing job helping each other solve all sorts of technical problems.

Now, to the point. I was totally pleased [Wink]

to find out that not only I have this problem with Bodine motor that overheats (and eventually breaks down). With my cinema it's a very serious problem since, having 10 projectors (motors), we replaced each and every one of them at least once and there are cases where we installed new motors twice or even for the 3rd time (we opened 1,5 year ago). So I begin my shift with a thought with my head: Which one goes off today?

At 1st we thought that there's something wrong with the wiring: there was pressure to open the cinema as soon as possible and some things may have been done too hastily (we still tend to agree with this). A mile away is yet another cinema having exactly the same projectors (Christie P35GPS) and motors and they replaced "a reasonable)amount of motors.

2nd, we checked the belts as we were told that too tight belts might lead to motor overheating. Belts checked=everything's right>motors still break down too easily.

3rd, the wiring of motors were thoroughly checked for loose parts, connections etc. and still nothing.

The idea that "these Bodine motors are just like that" doesn't convince me: is it too much too ask for a motor that works fine for a year??? That's why I don't believe that the manufacturer is here to blame.

Don't know if you checked the Bodine Handbook http://www.bodine-electric.com/TechTools/ (pdf file) where on one of the last pages (213) there's a summary of common failures and possible reasons. I will get down to it as soon as I get the chance.

PS. Sorry for any article, linguistic etc mistakes in this and my future post- please remember that English is not my mother-tongue.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 02-06-2009, 05:48 AM:

Hi Janusz

I think you did a great job. [thumbsup]

Welcome to Film-Tech. [beer]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-06-2009, 06:33 AM:

Its going to sound obvious to some but...what is your voltage feeding the motors and how are they wired?

From a US standpoint..."High-Voltage" is the 230V wiring. "Low Voltage" is the 120V wiring (with respect to motors). I know in other lands...230 is considered low and 380 is High.

For you to have these sorts of failures in such a short time...it sounds like the motors are being connected improperly.

Steve