Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 8-perf camera equipment

This is topic 8-perf camera equipment in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 09-27-2005, 03:47 PM:

I need to shoot VistaVision format for a short film. Rental is out of question because shooting will take very long. If you happen to have some vintage 8-perf camera equipment, maybe in need of restoration or reconstruction, sitting on a shelf, please contact me.

Posted by Bob Brown (Member # 1205) on 09-27-2005, 05:20 PM:

I think this is in the wrong forum....Should be moved to Equipment Wanted....

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 09-27-2005, 07:13 PM:

Mark G built a VV projector about 100 years ago ... photos here. Maybe he can comment on a camera.

(Moving to FHF because it's not 8/70 or 15/70).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-27-2005, 08:49 PM:

I still have the projector... that was a labor of love to build and certainly saw alot of use. I also have a VV camera. Its certainly usable although its not reflexed nor will it be, I can't justify throwing another 6 to 10K for even a basic reflex job into a dead format. Its actually the exact same type of camera that was used to shoot the early Paramount VV films, known as the "Lazy 8 Camera" it was originally a Stein two color camera that has been very heavily modified. It was converted to 3 pin reg by 20th Century Fox's camera dept. My camera is SN-2 and also has had the optical centerline corrected to standard VV C/L specs and to correct shutter position in regards to the aperature. The original Stein Conversions that were done at Paramount were not C/L corrected making the aperature coverage towards the edge of the circle of light that a given lens projects and also the shutter was offset in regards to the aperature. I also have a short set of Nikors for this camera. The main problem is that you're over there and I'm over here. Its also been sitting for quite a few years now and would have to be torn down and cleaned and lubed and flange depth set again. I will get it out and take some photos in the next couple of days, but I don't thik this is the sort of camera you're after... its also very heavy, about 45 lbs for the body alone and does require heavy duty support equipment... either a geared head or an O'Conner "100 type" fluid head!!

P.S. My original objective for the VV stuff was also to make a documentary....... Time is just a four letter word I guess.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-27-2005, 11:38 PM:

Yea, see if you can find some Mitchell "Elephant Ears" VV cameras around....

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-27-2005, 11:41 PM:

Fries cameras builds VV cameras still on special order

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 09-28-2005, 02:03 PM:

Mark,

sounds great! Weight is no matter, I will mail you off-forum tomorrow night because I am just leaving for location shooting (4-perf anamorphic only [Wink]

)

C.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-28-2005, 02:15 PM:

You will be amazed as how sharp and grain free some of the new lower speed Kodak VISION2 color negative films are, especially the EI-100T 5212 and EI-50D 5201.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-28-2005, 02:47 PM:

John,

With that new Kodak stock a VV to 15/70 blow up might look pretty good and could allow some of these fine cameras to be utilized a bit more than they are being used today. It would be ALOT cheaper than shooting 8 perf 65mm. I cold see doing a slight anamorphic verticle squeeze on the VV frame and blowing the VV frame to the full width of the 15 perf frame and let the anamorphic fill the 15 perf frame top to bottom..... Am just finishing a move but have dug the camera head out, just need to find the magazines and will post a couple of shots if it here later.

Mark

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-28-2005, 03:05 PM:

Even a full-frame Super-35 (camera image area 0.981 x 0.735 inches, per standard SMPTE 59) blow up to 15-perf 70mm might look darn good. Might open up more sync sound production, and give the camera mobilty it doesn't always have with 65mm.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-28-2005, 03:10 PM:

45 lbs. for the body?!?! [Eek!]

That makes the Arriflex 16BL (with which I recently shot a short film) seem almost lightweight by comparison. My soundman was making fun of it and made a point of showing me his consumer video camera, which was smaller than the tripod head that I used with the 16BL.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-28-2005, 03:59 PM:

quote:
45 lbs. for the body?!?!

Yes, most VV cameras are quite heavy. A complete Mitchell Elephant ear with 2000 foot load is more like 125 lbs. Even the Mitchell Buterfly VV camera was about 30 lbs with motor and 400 foot load. One thing I have to say is thet my camera is certainly solid.

Mark

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 09-28-2005, 05:19 PM:

The first 35mm camera I operated was a Debrie Super Parvo Color, and it weighs 170 pounds (without film). But in its magnesium/lead blimp housing it certainly ran absolutely silent! [Big Grin]

So you won't hear me whining about a mere 45+ pounds... [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-28-2005, 08:38 PM:

Here are a few photos..... Things yet to be done.... Dynamically balance the shutter, build or find a more heavy duty Nikor lens mount, anodize and paint, machine a mount for at least a standard Mitchell viewfinder. Camera runs good and is certainly capable of shooting film, the movement is in really nice shape and dead steady without the slight regestration problem that resides in the Mitchell 2 pin movements. I would estimate about 60 man hours to finish the stuff needed.

Camera with 18mm Nikor lens. Crystal motor drive is built into the base. 24 or 25 fps crystal or variable speed up to 32 fps.

Interior of camera

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 09-29-2005, 02:30 AM:

Hello Christian,
Try this company. www.arandafilm.com.au There is detailed information on the site about their 8-perf system.

While I'm here. Does anybody know where to find a Delrama camera anamorphic (1.5x) as used for the Technirama format?

Phil.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-29-2005, 08:14 AM:

Phil,
Am familiar with the Rotovision camera and its very nice.... there are a few of them on the west coast here. There was one for sale on E-Bay a few years ago for 28K. I recently sold my Delrama attachment to Wide Screen Museum since it was not a usable attachment. There is a bad area in the silvering of the top prism that can just be seen in his photos. You can see that lens on Marty's web site here

Ther have been at least two other Delrama sold on E-Bay, one within the last year.

Mark

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-29-2005, 08:27 AM:

Isco may have some 1.5X anamorphic lens designs "on the shelf" from their IscoVision program:

http://www.iscoprecisionoptics.com/isco_new_e/index_e.html

Contact Christian Lindstedt

For a time, they sold 1.5X "IscoVision" lenses for the slide market.

They built a custom 1.5X projection lens for Kodak when I presented the demo trying to revive the idea of a 35mm 4-perf "1.5X Scope" format for 1.85:1 / 16:9 aspect ratio.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-29-2005, 09:25 AM:

Christian is no longer with ISCO. New owners from Switzerland own the company. He is now with All Advanced Optics which is a factory distributor for Nissan - Sankor.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-29-2005, 09:34 AM:

Thanks.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-29-2005, 10:43 AM:

quote: Richard Fowler
He is now with All Advanced Optics which is a factory distributor for Nissan - Sankor.

I hope they really are utilizing his talents! Sankor= [thumbsdown]

Mark

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-29-2005, 10:49 AM:

He is working on new designs and quality control issues.

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 09-29-2005, 01:02 PM:

quote: Phillip Grace
Hello Christian,
Try this company. www.arandafilm.com.au There is detailed information on the site about their 8-perf system.

While I'm here. Does anybody know where to find a Delrama camera anamorphic (1.5x) as used for the Technirama format?

Bruce at Arandafilm responded to my post at the cinematography.com forum, beside their own beautiful cameras they have a single VV movement, but constructing a whole new camera around it is just a bit too complicated for me... [Smile]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 09-29-2005, 07:43 PM:

quote:
Sankor= [thumbsdown]

Yeah, and their coffee stinks, too! [Razz]

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 10-02-2005, 03:51 AM:

Christian,
You say that it will take a very long time to shoot your film. Is this because it is animation, or time-lapse? If that is the case you might be able to use a still camera for the work. Something like a pin registered copy camera should be easier to find at an reasonable price. I have seen a couple of "Oxberry" modified Nikons which might do it. They had provision for 100' loads too I think. No doubt there are other types.

Mark and John,
Thanks for the pointers. I'll probably have to stalk E-Bay for a while and hope someone knows to call it a "Delrama". Although the idea of a new Isco attachment is very attractive. It would likely be a whole lot more portable.

I always thought the idea of 1.85 anamorphic was a real winner. More light. More image area. Less film waste. And a whole lot easier to retro-fit than 3-perf pull-down. I hope we get to see it introduced at least in exhibition. If you cant afford a new 1.5x cylindrical anamorphic, you could always dig out a Panatar or a Varamorph!

The 35mm 8-perf horizontal format, with 1.5x anamorphic as used in Technirama, seems to be a very good method for large-format production in this country. The set-up costs for 65/70mm processing and printing would be prohibitive given the scale of the local industry, but the double-frame negs would be as Technirama was, compatable with other release formats - 35mm 2x anamorphic reduction for general release at 2.39:1, 70mm flat at 2.20:1 and maybe even double-frame horizontal contact prints at 2.20:1 for mega screens. Digital sound on the double-frame prints. Maybe SDDS tracks located inside the perfs above and below the image. (kite-flying. there's not much to do today.)
Cheers!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-02-2005, 05:41 AM:

Canon also made a limited number of the original F-1's with a single registration pin in them. I've seen,handled, and serviced several of them back when I was at Canon. They had a specially adapted motor drive which could shoot at up to 6 fps. The main problem today is that I don't think these cameras can even be serviced if need be. the vertical titanium shutters had a tendency to crack and or pull apart after years of service. It might be concevable for an expert camera repairman to install at least a dual reg pin in a later version of Nikon or Canon F series body.

Another interesting camera was the time lapse camera built to shoot Chronos. It's film motion is advanced by a toothed chain and it also has the normal reg pins. I believe they got it to do up to 12 fps in 15/70 format. This sort of thing could also be adapted to work with 8/35 for alot less $$ than a standard HS 8/35 movement.

Mark

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 10-02-2005, 12:40 PM:

Phillip,

there will be both time lapse and 24fps live action shots. The TL part of the film will indeed take long to shoot. I wanted to start with it until I could locate a VV camera that would run at sound speed. For time lapse, I think an Automax 8-perf camera will a better solution, I also found a vintage Newman-Sinclair camera that does 8-perf double-frame with two cycles of its 4-perf movement.

In Grant Lobban's Technirama Story article it is mentioned that Technicolor made tests with a modified Delrama mirror projection device on 8-perf, The Old Delft Company made their prism unit after that. You can get these easily on eBay, an Ultra Panatar projection adapter could also work with longer focal lengths.

But if you need something portable - a Delrama unit is probably the least portable lens excluding maybe Todd-AO's "bug eye" 128-degree lens and Ultra Panatar lenses for Ultra Panavision. The Delrama unit is made of two big solid glass prisms and a cast iron housing, weighing about the same as a lightweight 35mm camera!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-02-2005, 01:19 PM:

Christian,
I think you will find that most if not all of the US made Delrama lenses were actually produced by Panavision for Technicolor. This was done after the initial Oldeft experiments were completed and Technicolor needed a large quantity of lenses. I believe that you can only go down to A 40MM with that Delrama. Actually the mirror units work alot better and will exhibit alot less chromatic abberation than a prism lens will. Its hard to believe that no one ever came up with a mirrored anamorphic for standard 35mm 2X projection!!

The Automax camera should work fine for TL. It will have a wide frame line though and you may have to widen the aperature out so you can intercut it with film shot with the standard 8 perf camera.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-02-2005, 01:24 PM:

Mark said "Its hard to believe that no one ever came up with a mirrored anamorphic for standard 35mm 2X projection"
Delerama by Delft was available as a mirror projection box attachment for standard theatres the trouble was it offset the beam of light and didn't hit the standard old style port

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-02-2005, 05:20 PM:

Gord,

The other problem is that its designed to work only on curved screens. It pre-distorts the image aside from the offset. That could all be overcome in a new device though and what I meant is modern day mirrored device.

Mark