Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Make-up/Break-down times

This is topic Make-up/Break-down times in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Rob Ferreira (Member # 3406) on 10-15-2005, 12:58 AM:

I am far from an expert on the make-up/break-down of films, and I am curious as to how long it takes most projectionists to do these tasks. The last time I put a movie together, I believe it took me close to an hour (at least it was all correctly spliced, etc. [beer]

) This was probably 3 years ago.
I'm not even going to say how long it takes me to break down a film [Roll Eyes]

What is everyone elses general timeframes?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-15-2005, 01:42 AM:

I can stick a print together within 45 minutes, and break one down in 20minutes using a STRONG MUT. - Monte

Posted by Amanda Jones (Member # 3326) on 10-15-2005, 02:18 AM:

I'm about the same. 45-60 on a movie (depending on length) and about 20 minutes on a tear down.

We have a shift manager who is tear down god. He can tear them down correctly without damage in 10 minutes or less.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-15-2005, 02:45 AM:

quote:
We have a shift manager who can tear down good. He can tear them down correctly without damage in 10 minutes or less.

..one speedy hombre! You guys use clear or opaque tape? If using opaque tape, I can see my Mr. Speedy is being so fast... [Wink]

-Monte

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-15-2005, 02:48 AM:

With a CFS platter I can get a 6 reel film from cans to platters (excluding the trailer pack and cues) in about 15 minutes, and can go from platter to cans with zero damage (no jokes about 'simply running on a CFS damages the print', thanks... [Big Grin]

) in about 10 minutes.

With a Christie AW3, I can go from cans to platter in about 45 minutes, 25-30 min. if I make up to 6000' reels first, and about 20 minutes from platter to cans.

I would not recommend high-speed makeup or breakdown as standard procedure. Too much to go horribly wrong very quickly if things go awry.

-Aaron

[ 10-15-2005, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: Aaron Sisemore ]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-15-2005, 02:53 AM:

Yea "Charlie Film Systems"...lol

Yea, got that right. Especially, when TECH loves to lock the end of the tail leader in the flange locks and "WHAM!"...damned table gets pulled and slams into the platter when you're not looking and paying attention. Damned "poly film" sometimes... [Wink]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-15-2005, 03:44 AM:

Makeup with a platter reel (assuming the trailer pack has already been assembled as "reel #0" and assuming all reels arrive heads out) 20-30 minutes for a 7'ish reel movie doing a full proper inspection and putting on cues as needed.

Breakdown 15 minutes for a normal 7'ish reel movie with no markings on the film of any sort and ultrasonic splices (not tape). The trick is in having everything neatly organized so 90% of your breakdown time is spent with the reel spinning, not fumbling around trying to get leaders reattached.

(BTW, anyone breaking down without a splicer and making REAL splices, either single or double sided, is NOT breaking down. They are making a mess and damaging the film.)

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-15-2005, 04:12 AM:

Of course all my leaders get spliced on (clear NeuTape, single sided) on breakdown.

Using Goldberg platter reels are 'cheating': it's not like every theatre has them! (Yes, they all should... and yes they all need Kinotons too... we have heard it all before, Brad) [Smile]

-Aaron

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-15-2005, 04:52 AM:

I've never used a platter, and never handled a new print of a feature, but to make up onto 6ks generally takes me about half the running time. It depends on how the print arrives, whether head or tail out, or a mixture of the two, whether I have a second rewind bench available, how much muck there is to be cleaned off the ends of the reels before re-splicing, etc. I had one recently which took me almost four hours, I think that's the worst I've ever had for a normal film. Spending five minutes preparing each pair of reel-ends, i.e. removing multiple layers of old tape, sticky labels, general muck etc. is not unusual. In that case there's no way I'm going to get it done in an hour.

To break down a print, generally abut half an hour.

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 10-15-2005, 09:48 AM:

Wow, you guys are fast. I usualy build-up, including trailers, cues, junk tail / lable, etc. in an hour and a half. This is building onto 6000's on a rewind bench, reversing, then loading. Of course, I've never worked in a theatre where I didn't have to be threading and starting at the same time, so maybe that has something to do with it. Break-down takes about a half hour.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 10-15-2005, 10:34 AM:

My estimates for budgeting time is running time of feature for inspection and loading onto platter. Breakdown is half running time of feature.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-15-2005, 11:20 AM:

For me, it depends on the condition of the print, the amount of other stuff that needs to be done at the same time, and whether I am making up/breaking down to/from a platter (via 6000' reels), 6000' reels, or 2000' reels. The length of the film is also a factor.

In most cases, inspection and makeup takes me about an hour. If there are trailers, it might take longer. It actually takes slightly more time to makeup for projection on 2000' reels (compared with platter or 6000' reels), since I need to measure the cues and also like to label the heads and tails of each reel. On the other hand, the film can go on screen as soon as the first reel is inspected.

Breakdown from a platter takes me about 30 minutes for a standard length (5-7 reels) feature. I usually remove any trailers prior to the last show and break those down on the bench as the show runs. It takes slightly longer when a film ships on cores, since each reel has to be rewound onto a core after being broken down from a platter.

When running 2000' reels, I usually take up directly onto shipping reels (unless they are in bad condition), and "breakdown" takes about 30 seconds after the show ends. With 6000' reels, I usually run the last reel on a 2000' reel, so that everything else can be broken down by the time the show ends. I do then rewind that last reel so that everything is heads out.

In any case, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on makeup and breakdown times, although it's nice to know that I can tell a manager that the film that ends at 9:30 will be ready for pickup at 10:00, or that the print that is scheduled for a 12:00 show will need to arrive no later than 11:00 in order for the show to start on time (assuming a platter house).

Posted by Amanda Jones (Member # 3326) on 10-15-2005, 12:09 PM:

When we build we use the yellow edge tape and we use the clear tape when taking out factory splices. I think the reason he is so good at it is because he to once worked for GCC and their union liked to mark their splices with the white grease pencils, so this guy got used to where the end of a reel was.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 10-15-2005, 01:39 PM:

I never hurry when I break down. I have Christie AW-3's and simply wind the film back off onto the 6000 foot reels. Then I wind everything off onto the appropriate reels, or, cores, if its something I will run again.

Rushing this job is just asking for trouble.

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 10-15-2005, 02:38 PM:

When it comes to making up and breaking down prints, I'm a tortoise: about an hour to an hour and a half per print to make up, and about 45 minutes to an hour per print to break down.

There's a catch...all prints I handle in my film-festival work are inspected and spliced onto 6000-foot reels using a Kelmar inspection bench; the 6Ks are then rewound and transferred to the platter. Most prints I work with come on cores, and more often than not I find heads and tails spliced on with layers of low-quality tape. The bench inspection process is inherently time-consuming, as is peeling off old splicing tape and cleaning off adhesive residue from the film ends with a rag dampened in Film-Guard.

After the showing, I offload the print from the platter onto 6Ks, then bench-wind each reel back onto the cores to ensure a tight, flat wind. All spices are peeled, never torn.

Sometimes I feel like I'm wasting time, but the satisfaction of doing the right thing more than makes up for the additonal time spent.

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 10-15-2005, 02:40 PM:

Bruce’

I second that opinion I mean what is the rush, if a film turns up late I think it should be shown the day after arrival, after it’s been put together and checked with a projectionist viewing the prints conduction.

And rushing the break-down, well I’ve seen some of the horror stories and the prints final demise in the can…which is in the Hey you suck !(AKA: outing bad film handlers).

One other issue hear is dragging it across the floor like it where some dog, at around the last time I was working as a projectionist second hand prints where around £1,500.00 that’s still a lot of money, I mean I don’t even drag my Laserdiscs or DVD’s around on the carpet, and being told by my senior projectionist don’t worry about it, yeah I happen to care about, sure if the projection booth floor was carpeted in silk like fashion I still wouldn’t drag it on the floor. This is where all sorts of foreign objects can attach them self’s to the print, etc, etc, etc.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-15-2005, 04:19 PM:

Assuming I've got my trailers ready and there are no "surprise" additional trailers pre-attached to the print and no "surprise" cues from the previous theatre, and the print is in otherwise good shape, it takes me about 40 minutes to make up the average used print and about 20 minutes to tear-down.

Maybe a bit longer for a new print because the trailer reel has to be assembled at the same time. (Since we're one screen, I have to rearrange our trailer reel pretty much weekly.)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-15-2005, 04:38 PM:

I should've noted that I was referring to a new first run print in my times for buildup. And no Aaron, using a platter reel is NOT cheating any more than someone loading from shipping reels straight to an AW3 vs. a CFS platter. If that was the case, I would say anyone using a CFS platter is cheating since they will load faster if necessary. It's all a matter of what you have available to you. If you don't have any 6000 foot reels, or a rewind bench and slow-loading platters, then you simply have to work with what you have.

Now allow me to flip that around on you. Anyone not utilizing the tools provided to them in the booth to do their job better and faster are crazy! (That includes anyone with a platter reel who isn't using it. [Razz]

)

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 10-15-2005, 05:54 PM:

My fastest build was recently, 17 minutes for a 6 reeler on a CFS (+ all cues), although it was under special circumstances (print not turning up until 30 minutes before showtime). I certainly wouldn't recommend that kind of speed to someone inexperienced - you really have to know your equipment well and be pretty experienced to build as quickly without damaging the print or fucking up.

Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 10-15-2005, 10:26 PM:

On a CFS I could/did break down prints in 20 minutes. (middle deck) Buildup could be done in the same amount of time, but I usually felt sorry for the platter system and backed it off.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-16-2005, 11:22 AM:

Normally, build up takes me probably 30-40 minutes per feature, including assembling the movie and the trailers onto 6K reels, removing lab splices, applying cues, etc. That is while wearing white cotton gloves.

Breakdown, probably about 20 minutes. But that does not include breaking down the trailers. That's usually done later, and takes about 10 or fifteen minutes for a pack of five or six trailers. No markings of any kind on our prints either. Even though we're taught to put silver paint on the print to mark the splices, we don't do that. Clear tape only. That's it. Which makes it funny when we send built up prints to other theaters. We hear it took them three hours to break down Eight Mile.

My build up record is Gods and Generals, which was a 14 reel movie. All trailers that I needed for the front of the feature were in the can, which meant that I couldn't get that ready before the print arrived. We had guests in our theater for the 1 PM first showing on Friday by noon, but the print didn't arrive until 12:10 PM. When it showed up, our GM asked "What can I do to help?" My response was, "Go talk to the audience," which he did.

All 14 reels were heads up, but I needed them tails up, because I build and inspect on 6000 foot reels on a rewind table prior to putting the film on the platter. The movie needed five cues applied to it, one at the end of show, one at the beginning of the credits, and one after the Feature Presentation snipe like normal, but also one at the beginning and end of the intermission, which was somewhere in the middle of the eighth reel. There were a total of three lab splices in different reels of the film, which I removed while building it.

I had two muts going at the same time... one rewinding the 2K reels to be tails up, and the other loading the 6K reels as I finished them, and two rewind tables going at once building the 6K reels. The movie was done and on screen five minutes late. Soo... 55 minutes? What made that so sweet was that every other theater in our area cancelled their first show. [Smile]

Posted by Dieter Depypere (Member # 3184) on 10-16-2005, 01:37 PM:

I build a typical 6 reel movie in 30-45 minutes (always splicing 2 reels onto a 1600m spool and considering the print is in good(!) condition). Sometimes it goes faster when the reels arrive tail up (haha).

Due to changeover operation I can break down some reels already while the actual movie is still running so I finish about 5-15 mins later after the end of the credits, including cleaning work, packaging etc.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 10-16-2005, 04:48 PM:

Regarding build up and break down...being a change over house makes it pretty easy, a build will take about 40 mins if the reels are in ok order. Of course they rarely come with heads or tails spliced together, and almost never with tails up and you always have to check all the change over cues, or make them with some foriegn prints.

All our trailers are put on a sepearte reel, one for flat one for scope (3 trailers max). Breakdown takes no time as the film is taken up on the shipping reels if its going out the next day. All I have to do is tie on the id tag and put them in the can.

Posted by Rob Ferreira (Member # 3406) on 10-17-2005, 04:29 AM:

So many people on here talk of only using clear tape at reel changes, with no other markings. I am not blind, and I can see the reel coming up, but all the projectionists at my theatre are trained to make-up with the yellow edge-marking cue tape on the tail of each reel. Is this not something to get into the habit of doing?

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-17-2005, 08:48 AM:

Start building up movies with one splice having clear tape instead of edge mark tape. After a few weeks, make it two splices. Then three.... They'll figure it out on their own. That's what I did. [Wink]

You should probably research on this site the various techniques used to find clear tape splices while breaking down so when they say "How the hell am I supposed to ....." You have a bunch of answers for them. Changing their ways won't happen over night. It will probably take a few months for everyone to be comfortable breaking down a print with all clear tape splices.

Good luck!

Splicing Tape Preferences -- Opaque or Zebra
Putting together films with clear tape?
Opaque Splicing Tape - Why?
Silver Paint Pen for splice ID [evil]

Posted by Rob Ferreira (Member # 3406) on 10-18-2005, 01:24 AM:

Well generally even with edge marking you have to look at the print. I don't have a problem seeing the slight change in the color of the film reels that most prints have - so I can tell when a reel is coming and look for the change. I rarely miss a change over when it is coming through, even when the tape is not there.
I am moving to work for a theatre that I know does not use edge marking, so unless they suddenly get some and start using it, I suppose I will have to be getting used to it anyway.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-18-2005, 02:12 AM:

For me it depended entirely on the print. My time in the booth was spent almost entirely in theatres which showed arthouse and rerelease titles, and there's a hell of a difference between prepping a one-of-a-kind tinted nitrate print from the 1920s and a new poly print of a feature on its release date.

It also makes a difference whether or not you'll get a chance to run a rehearsal screening before the first public show. If yes, then I'd only look for physical damage that needed repair (e.g. lab splices or perforation damage): things like out-of-rack splices in the middle of a reel, showing a film in 1:1.85 which should be 1:1.66 or a track printed out of sync would show up at the rehearsal. If not, then I'd compare the positions of the start mark from the pic and track neg on the bench to check for sync, hold an aperture plate against various shots if I'm not sure what ratio that obscure Czechoslovakian B-movie from the 1960s is supposed to be, etc. etc - in short, do everything needed to keep the chances of an on-screen presentation error down to the absolute minimum. So really the job could take anything from half an hour to half a day.

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 10-19-2005, 07:22 PM:

Bottom line here is that most popcorn whiz-kids, who are also
calling themselves "projectionists", are on a hell-bent race to
get everything done 'before their birth'. AND to hell with the
product they're handling (which is someone else's property. When
I was in the booth time and care was taken with everything that
was connected with the job and no, "Let's see how fast I can make it out the front door" at the end of the shift. There WAS a
time when pride and professionalism was a great part of this
business... but, no more.

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 10-19-2005, 07:39 PM:

That's a problem that can sometimes be pinned on the management. I have worked for a manager at Cinemark who wanted everything done as quickly as possible, and people would get in trouble for taking too long. Not sure what the time limit was, but according to the guys that were training me, it was a ridiculous request. Her reasoning was of course, payroll.