This is topic Crackling on 30+ year old print in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Dan Chilton (Member # 2288) on 10-21-2005, 12:34 PM:
 
We're running HAROLD & MAUDE for a late night feature tonight from what looks to be one of the original theatrical prints. Although the film is old, it's in good condition. I'm test screening it right now, and there's a very distinct crackle over the soundtrack. It's not the usually his and crackle of an old film, but a single frequency popping. Could it be that the soundhead is picking up more than just the soundtrack? What might be causing this?

ALSO: The popping all but disappears during reel transitions. At the first cigarette burn, the pops disappear, then they start back up within 5 seconds of the new reel. I'm totally puzzled.

Well, I flatlined the 4 highest EQ settings, and that cleared up the majority of the problem... although the film sounds a bit flat now. Any other suggestions?
 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 10-21-2005, 02:01 PM:
 
Is it an IBtech print?

Regardless, a print that age will have some shrinkage so the soundtrack might not be being read properly. What type of soundhead ? Exciter or LED?

Audeinces don't expect an original print to be pristine, so it's nothing to stress too much about IMO. You could always post a note on the box office warning the audience ahead of time.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-21-2005, 02:32 PM:
 
I ran "Harold and Maude" back in '71 and back then Paramount would get on the cheap side with film stock on the side - using "Movielab" stock - anybody remember this stock..?

That was the most grainiest and rotten stock that any lab could use (American International Pictures soaked themselves in Movielab stock..) for a good number years beginning in 1970

Thats'a pretty dry print you have there. That print should have been rewound and wound a few times to get the "stiffness" out, then gone through a FilmGuard machine a few times to "lube" it up as well.

Why it crackles is that the wind it so much tighter towards the end of the reel than it is at the front.

Also, being so tight there are actually lateral cracks in the soundtrack area that the PE cell can easily pick up due to the age of the print.

-Monte
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-21-2005, 02:39 PM:
 
Movielab was a lab. They used stock from Fuji, Agfa or Kodak, just like most other labs.

Could have been issues with processing? (e.g., soundtrack application?)
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-21-2005, 03:14 PM:
 
Thx John for that update, for I always took the "Movielab" credit as the stock itself.

Then a question to this: What was MetroColor? did MGM had their own stock, or did they use others as did Movielab?

For Paramount, Columbia even Disney used Metrocolor..

thx-Monte
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-21-2005, 03:18 PM:
 
The studio print Paramount has of "Harold & Maude" is IB-Tech. I've run it on a few different projectors and had no problems with the sound. The original and the re-issue "Harold and Maude" prints were done by Technicolor, not Movielab.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-21-2005, 03:22 PM:
 
What sort of track is it? Shrinkage can do strange things to VD, and unilateral VA can also be problematic - though that went out of use in the mid-30s, and so probably isn't an issue here.
 

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Posted by Dan Chilton (Member # 2288) on 10-21-2005, 03:34 PM:
 
Our print is an IB-tech. Reducing the high frequency EQ seemed to solve the problem. Now the popping sounds like very faint crackling (what you'd expect from a 30 year old print). I doubt anyone will even notice, let alone mind.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-21-2005, 03:38 PM:
 
Thx for the update on "Harold and Maude" for this is why I didn't directly mention that "H&M" was in IB since I couldn't remember from back then (and also, I didn't even know what IB (dye transfer printing was back then since I was only in the booth less than two years then..-being a drive-in projectionist fixing speakers on the side...) was - just that Movielab came out all of a sudden when that time Movielab was a good front runner for a lot studios to use.

With "H&B" being in IB, then I can definitely see the stress cracking in the soundtrack being of the silver soundtrack variety and with the film stock drying out.

For when IB gets that old, it's a pretty dry and alost brittle stock to mess with if not stored correctly.

Funny, how the color still remains fantastic after all these years due to "no-fade" syndrome.

-Monte
 

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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-21-2005, 04:01 PM:
 

quote: Monte L Fullmer

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Then a question to this: What was MetroColor? did MGM had their own stock, or did they use others as did Movielab?

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quote: Dan Chilton

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At the first cigarette burn...

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quote: Aaron Sisemore

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Dan you watch too much Fight Club.

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You got me, Aaron. Pre-Fight Club, I was just a projectionist lacky, as in thread it, start it, stop it, rethread it. Now that I'm running the whole show (post-Fight Club), that's the only term I ever knew to call them by. From now on I'll call them "cue marks" or nothing at all... or maybe I'll make up a completely new name for them. Hmm, "sprocket punctures" perhaps.

And by the way Aaron, wasn't HAROLD AND MAUDE filmed in your neck of the woods?
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-21-2005, 04:59 PM:
 
Out of curiosity I'd still like to know whether this was an area or density track, and if area, of what variety (single unilateral/bilateral, RCA duplex, shuttered NR etc.).
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-21-2005, 09:19 PM:
 
Quote "At the first cigarette burn,"

There is no such thing it is a cue mark and if some one was idiotic enough to use a cigarette on a print the burn would occupy the entire frame
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-21-2005, 09:43 PM:
 
I have seen prints of that era from Paramount develop little clear holes in the black soundtrack area that were not there when the print was first acquired. It's almost as though the soundtrack spots "rusted through" or continued developing after they were stored.

Anyone else ever see this?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-21-2005, 10:48 PM:
 
I have seen that Sam. Not sure what causes it though.

Dan Chilton - run the print in Dolby A and listen to the left channel, and then the right channel in the monitor. I'm betting your noise is in the right channel, which would point back to Dan Lyons' explanation. The print has shrunken ever so slightly and that is throwing off your lateral alignment just enough to pick up the edge of the track.
 

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Posted by Dan Chilton (Member # 2288) on 10-21-2005, 10:55 PM:
 
I'll have to wait until 11:45 to test it.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-22-2005, 02:28 AM:
 

quote: Aaron Sisemore

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Sorry, thats a peeve of mine.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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Out of curiosity I'd still like to know whether this was an area or density track, and if area, of what variety (single unilateral/bilateral, RCA duplex, shuttered NR etc.).

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quote: Monte L Fullmer

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...original variable density recording was almost done for after safety film came out. Other soundtracks methods reproduced sound much better as time rolled along.

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My impression is that it was done for quite a bit earlier than that as far as studio mastering went, and only really continued into the '40s because of Western Electric-equipped studios trying to avoid paying to use RCA patents. The big problem was that sensitometry was a lot more critical for VD than VA: all it took was a tiny printing or developing error to seriously affect the s/n ratio. VD continued for release printing quite a bit longer (I've come across them from as late as the '60s, especially for low budget and 16mm instructional films) because prints are usually struck 'one light' anyway, and VD was a bit more tolerant of slight cell misalignments in '40s and '50s era projectors. But when a VD print shrinks it can sound seriously weird, in my experience, loss of HF being the main symptom. Most types of VA seem to cope with this a bit better. If a print has shrunk so much that the cell is reading the outer edge of the track, I'm a bit surprised that it's not having a visible impact on the picture, too.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-22-2005, 06:44 AM:
 
I've seen density tracks on prints of films made at least through the 1950s. I know that I have a "Let's Go to the Lobby" trailer with a density track (IB Tech, too, but very splicy). I also have a 3-reel short from the 1950s (reprinted in the 1970s) where two reels have a density track, and one has an area track. Weird. It sounds fine, though.

Oh, and if Brad is correct and if the original poster has a CP500, it's entirely possible to create a custom format (left channel only, no NR) to play that print.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-22-2005, 07:06 AM:
 
The 8-perf print that I've seen a reel of projected, and have a couple of frames of, from 'Battle of the River Plate', 1956, had a VD track, I don't know if the normal 4-perf prints did. This was printed on Eastmancolor, now very faded.

I have a IB Technicolor print of the Lotte Reiniger animated 'Jack and the Beanstalk', (1955), which is also VD; obviously in this case a silver track.

I also have both 16mm and 35mm prints of the BP film 'We've Come a Long Way'; the BBC used to show it as one of their 'Trade Test Colour Films', when Colour television was introduced in this country, but normal programmes were not broadcast all day. The 16mm print has a VD track, while the 35mm one has a VA track. When I saw this film on television I assumed that it had been made in the '60s; but when I acquired the 35mm print I realised it was older, as it had nitrate edge markings (printed through from the negative; the print itself is triacetate). In 2001 there was a display at the National Film Theatre for the 50th anniversary of the Festival of Britain. In the display was a still from this film, which was shown at the festival.

VD does seem to be very much the exception by the 50s though, at least for feature films, and major labs. It was very common on 16mm prints when I was at school, though most of those prints probably dated from the '50s. These were Eastmancolor, similar to the 'Battle of the River Plate' track, and equally faded, even when I was running them, in the early '70s. Interesting that this type of track was still being used at that time (When the prints were made) on both 16mm and VistaVision; from one extreme to the other! I don't know which lab printed these films, but I would think it quite likely that the Vista one was by Rank, and their prints did seem more prone to fading than those from other labs at that time.

When LGP Cine had their shop at Rayners Lane Larry had a board just inside the door with various film samples on it. One of these was Standard 8 with optical track, alongside the perforations, as with magnetic, and somewhat wider than a Super-8 optical track. Larry said that the format was experimental, and he didn't think it had ever been put into production; he also said that he thought it dated from about 1965. If this date is correct it might explain why the format was never adopted! This track was VD, on black and white stock, I'm not sure if it was a print, or something recorded directly in the camera; 8mm prints are made with the emulsion on the opposide side to 35mm, to match camera originals. This would be very late for a new VD format.

Leo, to take up your point about how critical the exposure and processing of tracks is, in the '60s I was played a short demonstration film by an old projectionist. I don't know who this film was made by, probably either a lab or an equipment manufacturer. I can't remember if there was any picture, but it had a VD track. There were several sections, the first correctly exposed and processed, and the others with small variations in such parameters as recorder lamp current, processor speed, developer temperature etc. The effect on the quality of sound reproduction was dramatic. Has anyone else seen this film? It would be interesting to know if a copy survives anywhere. The film was quite old even when I saw it, probably made in about the early to mid '30s I would guess. The projectionist has been dead for about 30 years, and the cinema long closed, and now demolished.

Leo also mentioned unilateral tracks; the sample of Dolby stereo optical on the BKSTS wallchart, at least the first version of it, is in a strange format with two narrow unilateral tracks, which I've never seen used on any other print, stereo or mono. Obviously this was long after unilateral tracks went out of normal use; does anybody know anything about this?
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-22-2005, 12:39 PM:
 
I have encoountered reels with VD sections during musical numbers from the late 60's one recordist told me that any musical sequences they recorded VD becuase it had beter SN and hi freq response
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 10-22-2005, 02:29 PM:
 
Getting back to the orignal question for a moment, could it be some sort of static problem? If the film was/is on metal reels, that could explain the problem going away near the end of the reel, where the metal reel has discharged the static. Have you tried some Film Guard? Have you taken a close look at the sound track area?
 

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Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 10-22-2005, 05:03 PM:
 
Check the print for small horizontal or slightly tilted scratches in soundtrack area. The film could have been scratched by wrong makeup with a warped platter, these small scratches might cause that crackling sound. I had such a print with base scratches in soundtrack area, and treating the print with FilmGuard definitely made for cleaner playback (except for some really deep scratches).
 

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Posted by Peter Mork (Member # 1336) on 10-22-2005, 06:29 PM:
 
This is a mono track, right? I once cured a track with regular popping noises simply by masking off the part of the photocell that was reading the damaged part of the track. Try moving a card in and out over the cell as it plays. If you're lucky, it might work, and you can figure out a way to tape it in place for that show.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-23-2005, 08:21 AM:
 
Amplifing Peter Mork's idea: On older Dolby processors, it is possible to use format 01 and then unplug one noise reduction card at a time for best sound. Sprocket run prints were quite usable in this way. Louis
 

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Posted by Marc Hansen (Member # 705) on 10-23-2005, 10:25 AM:
 
Louis-
Are those cards hot-swapable or do you need to shut the system down to do that?
Thanks
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-23-2005, 12:41 PM:
 
Also it is possible to force the cat22 into a cleanup filter mode
I don't have the instructions anymore but one could derive it from the old 364
 

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Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 10-23-2005, 12:53 PM:
 
On older Dolby processors, it is possible to use format 01 and then unplug one noise reduction card at a time for best sound. Sprocket run prints were quite usable in this way. Louis

I thought that format 01 bypassed the noise reduction.
Bob
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-23-2005, 07:55 PM:
 
On cat 22 I have always been OK hot swapping them. Yes the audio goes through them even in -01 format. Noise reduction is turned off, however. Louis
 

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