Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kelmar newbie - Rewinding through Kelmar cleaner?

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Posted by Matthew Taylor (Member # 2310) on 11-09-2005, 10:46 AM:

I have just acquired a Kelmar film cleaning machine. Can you rewind at speed through this machine or will there be too much friction?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 11-09-2005, 11:26 AM:

Yes, but you should go very slow - not much faster than regular film projection speed. Use film guard. The Kelmar cleaner is a useful tool, but remember 'real' film cleaning machines cost $30-$40K, and a Kelmar costs about $350, so be aware [Smile]

Posted by Matthew Taylor (Member # 2310) on 11-09-2005, 12:09 PM:

Probably another dumb question but are the media pads one-use only or can you use them a few times?

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 11-09-2005, 12:53 PM:

This question was asked and previously answered on this thread:

High Speed FilmGuarding

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 11-09-2005, 07:57 PM:

Okay, John Walsh made me ask this. Does anyone have a picture of what a Film Cleaner looks like. I have a Kelmar Media Cleaner, but with the mentioning of these 30K dollar cleaners, I want to know if anyone has seen on, and do you have pictures.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-09-2005, 08:11 PM:

I've worked many years with a Lipsner-Smith ultrasonic film cleaner.

Here ya go Tom:

Posted by Matthew Taylor (Member # 2310) on 11-10-2005, 10:37 AM:

So are the media rolls single-use only or can they be used several times?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-10-2005, 10:45 AM:

If you use them with FilmGuard you can reuse them multiple times. If you use them without, they are a one-time-only thing or you risk scratching your film.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-10-2005, 04:10 PM:

If dry media picks up abrasive dirt, it becomes "sandpaper". I have seen prints literally scratched from head to tail with this type of cleaner. [Eek!]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-10-2005, 10:37 PM:

Also not all media is created the same. Some brands are more abrasive than others. For the best performace with the least chance of scratching, ask for "Film-Tech" or "Kelmar white" media from your dealer. Other media on the market is more abrasive (some is VERY abrasive) and will scratch your film.

Posted by Matthew Taylor (Member # 2310) on 11-11-2005, 07:58 AM:

Brad, who is the UK distributor for Film-Tech pads, is it Jack-Roe?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-11-2005, 04:07 PM:

Yes, Jack Roe is the exclusive UK distibutor, although there are other dealers in the US that will export to the UK if needed for whatever reason.

(BTW, I'm not trying to plug our product specifically...like I said the Kelmar white pads are also very good quality. Of course, those don't come with the plastic coupling cores, but still the quality of the media is good)

Posted by Matthew Taylor (Member # 2310) on 11-12-2005, 03:14 PM:

Ok...one more stupid question...can you reverse the media and use the clean side of the used roll once one side has been finished? (I'm determined to get my money's worth our of these rolls!)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-12-2005, 04:29 PM:

If using them with FG then there really is no reason to flip the sides.

If running media dry, assuming there is only A VERY SMALL AMOUNT dirt picked up the first time (which is generally the case when trying to clean a film "dry"), then yeah you can flip them over. Just bear in mind that the front side touches the back side when it's rolled up, so there had better be hardly any trace of dirt to pull this off without scratching your film.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 05-18-2008, 03:38 AM:

It has been 917 days since the last post.

Posted by Ben LaCrosse (Member # 4662) on 05-18-2008, 03:38 AM:

Old thread but pertains to me, ie stupid questions...

Do you rewind the media somehow after a run? I looked at our cleaner and couldn't figure out how to rewind the damn thing. But hey I am a filmguard and kelmar newbie, so what can you expect?

Also, on the filmguard info page it suggests that a 14 plex with 2 cleaners should saturate a fresh set of media each day to run in their respective houses. But I have also read to only saturate once a week and to use the same media for the whole week.

What gives? Wouldn't this be a waste of product? Using new media every day, and then saturating to boot. I have less than 10oz filmguard, i've never had any and came across some by chance. This is my one shot to prove to mgmt that this product is worth it. If anyone has any suggestions on how to best utilize my lil bottle of honey, then please I'll take them.

Until then, I am holding off initiating the 14x2 scenario presented on the info page.

[ 05-18-2008, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: Ben LaCrosse ]

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-18-2008, 10:48 AM:

When you buy film guard (or the film guard media pads) they come with keyed rewinding cores.

So if you're using regular media pads then transfer it onto the plastic core that came with your film guard and then rewind it using the other core that fits it like a key.

Posted by Ben LaCrosse (Member # 4662) on 05-18-2008, 03:27 PM:

That is just the thing, though. I didn't buy the filmguard. Corporate was in town and low and behold, made of honor was suddenly scratched. WEll, at 2a.m. sat morning I had to drive to downtown ATL to pick up a pristine filmguarded print. The manager and I got to talking and He ended up giving me a small bottle of the stuff. No key comes with that.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-18-2008, 03:46 PM:

Picture instructions are here.

If you are going to pick one print and clean it all week (maximum benefit), then you should saturate a new set of pads once a week and reuse it on that print the entire week. If you are going to move the cleaner around every day to a different print between 7 prints, you should resaturate the media every day, so each print gets the normal amount of FilmGuard on the media (not already partially dried-out media). Bear in mind you will have to change the media when cycling the cleaner like this every 2-3 days.

If you are doing a demo, your best bet is to just pick one film and run it exclusively on it all week.

Posted by Ben LaCrosse (Member # 4662) on 05-19-2008, 01:16 AM:

Man, that is freakin sweet. I love this site.

I will using the "maximum benefit" scenario you have presented.

Tonight I got out the box of old/nasty/scratched snipes and experimented. I spliced a few together, dabbed my gloves in FG, and got a good coating, then wound and rewound a few times with dry gloves. The splotchy-ness look of the film upon inspection made me think I needed to keep making dry runs. And honestly I was a little disappointed, until I ran the film through the projector. After I picked up my jaw off the floor, I realized this stuff is for shizzle. er something...

If applied in the correct amount, what is the film supposed to look like? Kinda glossy and wet, smooth and even coat? Streaky when applied and splotchy afterwards??

btw, the experimental method I used was not through a spray nozzle. I put my glove on, opened bottle, put gloved middle finger/index finger over top and then one single shake to moisten cloth. Wrong method, right? Too much, methinks but don't knows.

sorry for the edit... but whoa, wait! The cleaner in the "Threading 101" pictures is not oriented like ours. Our Kelmar Cleaner brackets are positioned at the top of the platter tree, perpendicular to the payout. Strong 3 deck platters. Um so only prints coming off the top platter can be cleaned. After the payout/brain, the film goes directly to the cleaner. The cleaner is positioned vertical, as well.

Does it matter what position the film enters and exits the cleaner? If its vertical or sideways? And if a bracket relocation proclamation is to be signed, what kind of fundamentals should I follow?

Feel free to slap me around a bit for all these questions. I can take it.

[ 05-19-2008, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Ben LaCrosse ]

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-19-2008, 02:11 AM:

Any blotches you saw were likely a result of the way you applied the stuff (with gloves rather than the kelmar cleaner). Normally, your first run-through or two with the film guard will look like the image on screen has some water streaking but that's the film guard. Apparently if you apply the stuff to the media pads a day before you're going to use them, then the streaking doesn't happen that first show but you still get it cleaning well.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-19-2008, 03:03 AM:

quote: Ben LaCrosse
...honestly I was a little disappointed, until I ran the film through the projector. After I picked up my jaw off the floor, I realized...

Yep...that's it.

[Wink]

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-19-2008, 09:53 AM:

You should be able to thread payout from any deck on your strong platter and as the film is traveling up towards the roller on the very top of the platter tree you should be able to thread the cleaner. The problem is that with the Potts style platter there is absolutely NO back tension on payout unlike say a Christie AW3 so that might cause problem with the operation of your film cleaner. I have seen somewhere where someone was able to modify a Potts alpha platter style payout head to use the christie rollers and provide some back tension. I dont remember where I saw it but that would greatly improve the performance of your Kelmar cleaner!

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-19-2008, 10:27 AM:

Or you could just ask your technician to see if they could put a bracket for your cleaner on top of the projector since it sounds like there wasn't a good place for having it placed on the tree.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-19-2008, 01:57 PM:

How does moving the film cleaner to the top of the projector make a difference in back tension?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-19-2008, 04:42 PM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
How does moving the film cleaner to the top of the projector make a difference in back tension?

Maybe the guy installing it also does massages? [Wink]

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-19-2008, 05:22 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Picture instructions are here.

Brad thanks for that link. I always wondered what those keys were for.

Posted by Mike Sellars (Member # 4042) on 05-19-2008, 06:17 PM:

I might be using mine incorrectly, so here's the deal: We have one on projector mount that we rotate through all 14 houses, one house per show, changing pads and soaking weekly on Wednesdays. If starting the cleaner on house 1 for the day, when house 1 breaks we move it to house 2 and then run it on house 2 for the next complete show, then house 3, ad nauseum. Based on what Brad said above, should we recharge our pads every morning? Should we just run one house per day as is suggested above?

Mike

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-19-2008, 07:21 PM:

You're not getting the most out of your cleaners by a long way.

Judging by the fact you have only one cleaner for 14 screens, I'll assume money's an issue and a couple more cleaners are out of the question. So here's what I'd do... clean only the new prints in the house...one screen per day then move the cleaner to the next house for the next day. Re-soak the pads for each new print run. If the pads are looking foul then change them. Doing it this way, you should expect to be changing out pads at least two or three times per week.

The older prints won't get a clean at all but should still be looking pretty good as eventually all your prints will be treated with FilmGuard.

Ideally though, you need 13 more cleaners. [Wink]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-19-2008, 08:16 PM:

John put it best in the post directly above.

And the Strong/Potts brain mod was something I did around 2001-2003ish. It is posted somewhere here in the archives.

So which theater in downtown Atlanta has their shit together in the booth?

Posted by Don Furr (Member # 1469) on 05-19-2008, 08:46 PM:

Well Brad besides the indys in the downtown area there is only a big Regal in Atlantic Station. Last new flick we saw there was scratched. Does that answer your question?

Don

Posted by Ben LaCrosse (Member # 4662) on 05-19-2008, 09:38 PM:

Well it isn't exactly downtown, north of it a little but not by much. The Regal Hollywood 24 at chamblee/tucker was where I picked up "Lace and Flowers". The booth manager was 3 or so months into his job there and I was really taken back at how the booth looked. It made our booth look like someone took a dump and then put 14 projectors on it.

The manager mentioned he trained under 'Keith Hannas' for two years. I don't know who that is. He is real respected, from what I was told.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-19-2008, 10:46 PM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
How does moving the film cleaner to the top of the projector make a difference in back tension?

Never said it did. But perhaps it might help with the fact that he said that currently he can only use the cleaner from the top platter.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-20-2008, 07:31 AM:

oh ok... I'll bet that it can be used with all three decks but it just wasnt apparent what the proper threading pattern was.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-20-2008, 11:18 AM:

Touche

Posted by Mike Sellars (Member # 4042) on 05-30-2008, 08:40 PM:

How about this for a compromise, Brad and John... Still move it each show but reload the pads each morning and change the pads twice a week? Since there is no way in heck i'm gonna get even one more film cleaner, let alone 13 more, it seems to me that this approach would allow the most film to be cleaned with somewhere around the proper amount of FilmGuard each time.

Whaddaya think?

Mike

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-31-2008, 06:26 PM:

I'd still go with my original suggestion. The way you've said will use the same amount of FG and the same amount of pads, but you're only applying FG then moving the next session. The pads need a chance to do the second part of their work. That being cleaning the residue loosened by the FG. They can't do that if they're not operating on that print any longer.

Those older prints will still look great once you've gone through this process for a few weeks. Don't worry.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-31-2008, 09:56 PM:

Nope, moving each show won't be nearly as effective as the way John and I described. The first pass really won't pull much dirt off, it will just loosen it. Subsequent passes do the magic.