Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Ernemann 15 vs. Kinoton FP20 vs. Cinemeccanica Vic 5

This is topic Ernemann 15 vs. Kinoton FP20 vs. Cinemeccanica Vic 5 in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-11-2005, 07:16 PM:

Ok considering European projection equipment market, these are three most popular projector.

So what the best of these three machines?
Not best but optimum choice?

So if you go put projector in cinema, which of theses three you would have?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-11-2005, 07:59 PM:

For me, the FP20...steadiest image, easy to maintain, needs very little maintainance.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-12-2005, 12:39 AM:

Same here. Cinemeccanica needs more maintenance, and so does the Ernemann, plus the Ernemann can be temperamental and unreliable. A clear choice.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-12-2005, 02:05 AM:

My first concern would what is the largest installed base of machines as that would indicate teh best supply of spares

Posted by Rick Long Jr (Member # 541) on 11-12-2005, 06:48 PM:

Gord with that mentality there'd be no good machines anywhere. We'd all be stuck servicing Simplexes. [Big Grin]

FP-20 for sure. There's no comparison.

Posted by Christos Mitsakis (Member # 143) on 11-13-2005, 04:51 AM:

Cinemeccanica and Kinoton are the leaders at motion picture film projection in Europe now, concerning new installations. At least here, Vic5 and FP30 are the most popular models. Although I am a long fan of Cinemeccanica I prefer Kinoton for the steadier projection, flawless filmhandling and beter construction. Those features justify the higher price of Kinoton both in projectors and (unfortunately)in replacement parts. If cost is not an issue I would suggest to go with Kinoton. A well mantained secondhand FPxx is also (for me - no offence to Cinemeccanica or Cinemeccanica lovers) preferable than a new Vic5.

Christos

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-13-2005, 07:13 AM:

quote: Christos Mitsakis
If cost is not an issue I would suggest to go with Kinoton.

Or if cost is an issue (and when isn't it?), I would still suggest to go with Kinoton. The cost difference between projectors isn't all that much, and you will end up saving money because you will have less troubles, less downtimes and lost business etc.
Plus if you want a really good DD reader, the Kinoton projectors have a basement reader as option which is rock steady and reliable and on top of that, much cheaper than the penthouse readers.
There is a new product series called the A series which is cheaper than the standard D and E projectors but has exactly the same mechanical components in the film path. The main difference is a simplified drive which is not coupled directly to the intermittent but there is a single fiber glass backed belt. Instead of the Lenze frequency inverter for motor speed control, it has a capacitor start circuit.
There are also a few simplified options for lamphouses and consoles and a whole new platter (FT3M) which goes back to a mechanical feed arm on the brain but has the same sophisticated steering as the bigger brother (ST200E).
We have 14 of the FP50A consoles and FT3M platter systems in our new location and are very happy with them.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-13-2005, 08:56 AM:

In mine opinion i think that ernemann 15 is so-call "stronger" then kinoton, because it has got cast aluminum mechanism housing, and one belt between running motor and rest of mechanism.

Let's remember older projector what got whole projection head of cast aluminum legure, prexer, ernemann IV, V, VIII, Iskra had it and mostly they never had malfunction in head or some kind of intervention after 30 years of working, because they got tot-wheel mechanism.

Also it has less electronic then Kinoton, and this can be good for small cinemas in small areas where specialized technician or factory support can't be obtained easy.

Also it has got basement analog and dolby digital readers.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-13-2005, 09:30 AM:

Actually the Kinoton projectors are easier to fix simply because they have far less parts and a lot of these are constructed very simply and rugged (like all the plastic rollers which you can simply pull off, wash, and put back on, or the simple plastic gate which comes off in 1 1/2 seconds for thourough cleaning and takes about 2 1/2 seconds to put back on, or the plastic gate bands which you have to replace after a year or so, but they are good to the film and will never ever snap in the middle of a show).
For the same reason, they are also easier to operate, clean and maintain.
A huge difference is also in the soundhead design which is so simple on the Kinoton projectors that it is hard to believe they actually work. But they do.
Ernemann is not a bad projector at all, but in direct comparison with Kinoton they have to surrender unconditionally.
Take it from someone who has worked with both brands his entire cinema life (I am Made in Germany too).

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-13-2005, 09:42 AM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
There is a new product series called the A series

I'm glad you mentioned that; since this thread started I've been wondering if it was referring to the old FP-20 machine, or the new 'A' series FP-20A, it's not clear.

The PDF sheet for the FP-20A shows a timing belt drive, but most of the spec looks pretty similar to the 'D' series.

For a 'normal' cinema, is there any real advantage in going for the FP-30D, rather than the FP-20A? What sort of cost difference are we talking about, in percentage terms, between the two series?

If the 'A' series does evrything that a normal cinema needs, is there a future for the 'D' series? it's already down to 35mm only, if you want dual gauge, either 16/35 or 35/70 then you have to go to the 'E' series. Then you've got the various specialised series that can do things like high speeds, rock & roll etc. Given all of these alternatives for various markets, it's getting difficult to see who the 'D' series would be the best option for now.

The 'A' series does sound like it's intended to compete directly with he Vic 5; a good workhorse for a typical cinema that doesn't need to do anything unusual.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-14-2005, 03:46 AM:

We've just installed 5 of the FP50A machines, mechanically they are nearly FP50Ds in the film path, noteable exception is that the turret doesn't open at all, and there is no film break sensor as standard. As said above, the major difference is in the drive, it's more akin to the FP20 of old. I don't think the A machine is as smooth running as the D, but you pays your money. It also uses different push buttons for the control functions, and a different 24v PSU.

Not sure I agree with the comment about the electronics in the Ernemman/Kinoton. There's a lot in both designs, the Ernemman hides it away, and you probably can't do much to repair it in the field, having said that, I've never had to. I have spent quite a bit of time with my head in the loom of Kinotons though.

Where is the need for all this electronickery? All the Euro made machines are the same, and that in my book, is their weak spot, it won't run because relay X won't pull in thus not allowing A1, A2, Z3 & R4 to pull in. Whereas a Century has a simple switch... That's another Kinoton A model thing, the relays are soldered onto the PCB, not pluggable like on the D. However, the cinema is getting a genuine Kinoton machine at a bargain price.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 11-17-2005, 06:14 PM:

The newest Cinemeccanica Vic 5s are extremely impressive and have made me think the gap is narrowing between them and Kinoton (nothing like a bit of competition!).

I saw a Vic 5 in action in a Preview Theatre in the UK some months back and was astounded by the steadiness and illumination uniformity of the image (and it was Scope as well). Screen was about 25ft too.

Issues like the cost of spares and ease of servicing are very important outside major centres as some have noted - I think the Vic 5 scores in that respect.

Don't know the Ernemann machines so can't comment on those.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-17-2005, 07:38 PM:

quote: Pete Naples
We've just installed 5 of the FP50A machines

Did you also get the FT3M? What do you think?

Posted by Mike Baer (Member # 1519) on 11-18-2005, 08:43 AM:

I have worked with Ernemann 15 and Kinoton FP30.And i am working now with the Vic 5s.In my oppinion is Kinoton the best choice.As Steve mentioned above very easy to maintain what i can not say about the Cinemeccanica.But if the Vic 5 is well maintained and aligned it is also a wonderful Machine.
The Ernemann 15 i worked with were a crappy piece of metal [bs]

Loud and with an unsteady picture.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 11-18-2005, 10:45 AM:

To choose or NOT to choose?!!
Well. There are a lot of pros and cons for all machines. Forget the Ernemans and foccus on the Kinoton and Cinemecanica options. Kinoton will be the best sounding 'bee' in the projector handling film like a baby never deteriorating it. In needs very little maintenance and picture steadiness is perfect. Also remember that we are talking about projector heads here. The analog/digital reader is considered by far the best on the Kinoton projectors. So the question is. Should we go with Kinoton? That's up to you to decide. I can not guarantee that they are problem free but I can guarantee that they treat the film best than any other projector. But for me, being a Cinemecannica freak and working with two V5's since 5 years old (even installed rewind motors on the projectors) I would go for a V5. Robust design, needs more maintenance than a Kinoton but it literary never fails. As for image steadiness, the new curved gates on these babies have made quite an impression. Also the basement reader is quite good. Tested running for 5 years in a row with steady reading almost on every film of error rate 4-5 and nothing higher (except if the print was really a mess!). The film path on the V5 is much easier and it can be threaded really fast even with little or no experience on the projector while the Kinoton is a bit tight when it comes to threading the projector. When it comes to light output though, I can guarantee that nothing I've seen yet beats Kinoton lamphouses. Damn bright which completely spreads uniformily throughout the entire screen. Cinemeccanica has not been able to beat that output yet as far as I am concerned. But after all, it's ur choice
D

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-18-2005, 10:56 AM:

Michael, no, we used the ST200E

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-18-2005, 11:05 AM:

Why? I mean, not that you would have to explain why you wanted to use the ST200E, but I am curious why this combination. Using the FP50A seems to suggest they wanted to save some money, but on the other hand, for the platters the more expensive option was chosen.
Which automation was used?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-18-2005, 02:15 PM:

I'm not sure why we went for ST200E, I believe it had something to do with availability, the opening was brought forward I understand.

Automation is the Kinoton CCA3, pm me if you want my thoughts...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-18-2005, 08:47 PM:

You got to be kidding...the FP50A has zero affect on how film is handled as compared to the FP50D. The difference being in the direct drive vs belt drive and wild start/run versus motor controller start/run. The D series brings the ability to change the ramp ups and down as well as speed options but for the typical cinema, these are not big items (and the Lenze controller can always be added later, if desired for variable speed).

For the Platter, you are going to a different handling mechanism...the E series here eliminates the moving speed sensor on payout...a big plus in my book. The "E" series platter is best I've ever seen handle film bar none. I could easily see someone that was economizing on the projector by only going to the "A" series but stuck with the ST200E due to its superior film handling performance.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 04-16-2007, 04:46 AM:

It has been 513 days since the last post.