Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Rates for new installs?

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Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 11-21-2005, 06:07 AM:

I was just curious what the going rates were for new installations? I was talking to someone who offered me a set price per booth for some upcoming jobs. I have never done that before, i have always charged a daily rate. I am wondering how to handle the issue of any delays or extra costs involved.
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rick

Oh yeah, I forgot to add, this would involve racking and wiring the soundrack on site.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-21-2005, 06:23 AM:

For over 30 years I charged a set rate. However, delays and unreasonable expectations have caused me to lose a lot of money/time. I no longer will quote a set rate because the owner then runs the other way and makes all delays "your problem." This way all problems are "our" problems and I get paid for the time, included wasted trips.

Regarding racking on site: It is inefficient and the job goes much better when done at the shop. That is where all tools, power equipment and small (important) parts are. (We prefab the booth equipment, wiring, sealtite, etc as far as we can off-site. If I can, I do A chain alignment and xenon/projector/lens alignment also.) Expense to stay at a hotel in a town 4 hours away covers all possible local wiring benefits.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 11-21-2005, 08:15 AM:

Agreed with Louis on both issues. I will add one minor note, which you probably know already: If the monitor/amps do not use D15 cables to interconnect, you will have to make individual shielded cables with crimp on lugs, etc. which takes much more time to wire.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 11-21-2005, 08:28 AM:

Louis,
I am concerned about the delays on site. Every job is different and it depends on who is running the site and coordinating everything. As an example, I was offered $1000 per screen for an 8 plex. With an estimated 3 weeks of work. But if I run into delays, then I think I can get screwed very quickly. I have not gone into details with the offer yet, but I think that figure means i cover all of my expenses. Before I talk to them again, I want to be more informed. I was thinking about $1250-$1500 at least per booth. Also how do you cover your ass for delays? Or do you just charge a daily rate always? Thanks for any tips.
Rick

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-21-2005, 08:49 AM:

I had to give up the flat rate completely. Strictly "time and materials, plus expenses." You could quote a flat rate with a certain number of hours purchased; then surcharge for material, travel, and additional time. There is NO WAY I would ever again quote a maximum price. Too many people took advantage of me. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-21-2005, 08:56 AM:

We have never done flat rate installs as far as I know. Its always been T&M. The hourly rate we charge for installs depends somewhat on who the customer is and how mych buisness they've done with us in past years. There are ALWAYS delays, extra trips, and other expenses involved in any install. I prefer to assemble in the shop, assembling on site is not only more tiresome of road travel and road food but it is also quite wasteful of your customers expense charges. This is ALWAYS done more efficiently in the shop. Its also nice to find a defective piece of gear in the shop so it doesn't present any last minuite delays to getting a screen open on site.

quote: Richard Hamilton
I was offered $1000 per screen for an 8 plex. With an estimated 3 weeks of work.

You'd go broke at that rate in a big hurry! Like Loius says that amount purchases X number of hours per installed booth. Anything over that including delays is extra. Expenses are always extra. Also have an install agreement drawn up that is a legal document. Have all customers(sometimes there are more than one) involved in a project sign it and personally guarantee it. I always did this back at Midwest and no customer ever had problems with signing an agreement. If one does I'd pass on the job.

Have fun installing!

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-21-2005, 10:11 AM:

I do instals strictly on time and materials + expenses as one never knows what suprises may be in a box of "previously enjoyed" equipment

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-21-2005, 11:13 AM:

Time and materials and per dium is the best way. We had one client which we would quote a flat rate but they had to follow our time line regarding sub-contractor and building matters to allow us to work. We also prefabricated the electrical interface ( wireways, sub-panel, sealtite and electrical hardware ) between the projection / sound to the building.
Audio rack pre-wire, is alway superior done in a shop; an exception would be to make audio and electrical harness wire kits in advance in our shop.
$1000.00 a room for an 8 plex...that is what we charged for projection / sound for a like sized project in Ft. Lauderale, Florida in 1978 [Eek!]

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 11-21-2005, 11:14 AM:

Thanks guys, As I said, I have always done work on a daily rate, and wasn't sure about doing a per booth rate, so that is why I was asking. Thanks for all of the input. My price per booth just went up considerably, with a lot of changes in the contract!

Thanks again, Rick

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-21-2005, 01:15 PM:

It's also worth laying out some sort of timeline in a signed agreement such that "X must be completed by Y date" and so forth. This is for YOUR protection, because in this example "X" may be your electrical needs, or your port windows, etc. Make it clear on paper that if the contractor falls behind that you are not suddenly reponsible for working 28 hour days or hiring in extra techs to assist at your expense to make the deadline...unless they pay extra for you to do so.

Also put in there that they will cover the expense of anything you have to re-do. I had one install where the contractor's AC guys kept moving the platters and consoles because "they were in our way" and the decorator ordered the status panel in the lobby to be cut down because it didn't fit in with the look they wanted. (Yes they literally cut it down creating all new kinds of fun.) I spent more than double the hours I should've there because of things like this, and foolish me had agreed to do it at a flat rate.

Regarding the set rate, these words are gold!

quote: Louis Bornwasser
I no longer will quote a set rate because the owner then runs the other way and makes all delays "your problem."

So true! So true!

More words of wisdom...

quote: Gordon McLeod
one never knows what suprises may be in a box of "previously enjoyed" equipment

I charge much more for dealing with used equipment installs nowadays.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 11-21-2005, 04:03 PM:

o.k., i think I will stick with the daily rate then. Can any one comment on what the average daily rate is? I usually charge between $350 to $600 a day plus expenses, depending on the job. The special venue stuff pays more. But I am curious what the going rate is on a typical install so I don't sell myself short on a bid.

Thanks, Rick

Posted by Royce Patton (Member # 3449) on 11-21-2005, 06:48 PM:

I would suggest that you always charge a flat rate and base your price on a job with some typical problems, which are bound to occur. However, you should add language to your proposal that makes the customer responsible for paying for major and/or unreasonable delays. You should come in between $1,500 and $2,100 per-screen, with travel expenses added on top of that. Don't try to do the racks on site even with the QSC DCM/DCA setup, it's just not worth it, too much labor, too much trash in an environment that is already cluttered and insecure. Allow 2 days per-screen for the install with a couple of extra days added for cushion, so 3 weeks is plenty for 8 screens.

Have the customer get the racks done elsewhere and shipped to the site. If you feel like you must do them, rent a self-storage unit to work from near your house if you don't have a shop. Get the racks done well before the start of the booth install and of course the racking is an additional charge.

Just my two-cents worth....

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-21-2005, 06:58 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
I charge much more for dealing with used equipment installs nowadays.

No real need to do that. Just charge T&M for repairing the used equipment on site! We have one customer that is a believer in re-cycling equipment big time. We actually make alot more profit on the parts and labor in the repairs to his used equipment to bring it up to spec on site. Take a used AW-3 for instance... just did two of them on site. We replaced 5 missing sensors,a missing LED card, 4 missing motor controler cards, and rebuilt the 6 motors, and replaced many of the rollers..... We made far more profit just on these parts than we would have on a brand new AW-3. and there was alot of labor on top of that! I donno why this customer has us do this but I have no problems with it.

Another example was 2 DTS 6D's he bought used. Both had supposedly been upgraded by a dealer(?) in Denver.... but he did the upgrades wrong... installed new Teac 32X drives and left the old ROMDOS B in place thats only good for 16X drives. More repairs and more profit made than selling a new unit.......

Unless of course you're selling new equipment at list price......

quote: Richard Hamilton
Can any one comment on what the average daily rate is? I usually charge between $350 to $600 a day plus expenses, depending on the job.

Labor charged has nothing to do with what job it is. If you have a lot of years of experience and are well equipped with the latest in tools and test gear and if you carry a lathe and arbor press in your van then 500 a day is quite reasonable. You are worth what you are worth and failing to charge that you are cheating yourself!. If you are really, really good and work fast you might save your customer some $$ buy taking less days to complete a job. But if your work pace is so-so and you're not familiar with his equipment or you don't get along with the electricians then you will cost him more. Be careful that one customer doesn't find out that you charged another less.... the exhibition buisness while competetive also has its buddie-buddie thing going on too at the golf course. Another thing to be careful of is having in your agreement for the owner to supply the electrician which is required in at least 88% of the locations you'd be doing new installs. Most of the jobs I've been on the electrician will do the wiring and mount the gear on the walls, some would rather you actually do the woring but they will pull the feeds and wire in for you but nothing else. It all depends on local codes and ordinances and on how the electrician feels about you.... Make a good impression the forst day working with who ever it is... they can also make your job extremely miserable and the good majority of electricians actually do suck big time and they'd rather be out doing something else! Above all don't get stuck with his charges!!!

Lastly, Get yourself the best accountant you can afford! Use Quickbooks Pro for everything and be sure your accountant is well versed in Quickbooks. Quickbooks makes an having an audit a breeze! Last place I worked at was on Quickbooks for 4 years and was then audited... turned out that the State ended up owing the company over $4,000.00.....

Mark

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 11-21-2005, 09:15 PM:

Quickbooks rules!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-22-2005, 08:12 AM:

quote:
Quickbooks rules!

Absolutely! But it can take some time to learn how to let it rule... best to take a class when one is offered in your area otherwise it can get pretty mean. But once understood a totally paperless company is possible... even down to getting paid.....

Mark

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 11-22-2005, 08:51 AM:

QUOTE: "Allow 2 days per-screen for the install with a couple of extra days added for cushion, so 3 weeks is plenty for 8 screens."

Just my own opinion, but three weeks is too much time for eight screens. This is assuming that both the racks and projectors are shipped prewired/mounted. Of course, there will always be issues that crop up, so one rule will not fit all. As others have noted, you really are at the mercy of the electricans.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-22-2005, 09:00 AM:

In Fall of 2004, I had one job where the electricians were understaffed and the owner had 3 weeks of additional work added on; another job where the electrician just stopped showing up and I ended up doing the electrician's work including conduit in the booth; another job where no one on the job including the architect had ever seen a theatre before; another job where I ended up supervising all wall covering and finish in the auditoriums. What these jobs had in common is that a flat rate for BOOTH INSTALLATION was quoted, but many (hundreds) of additional hours were spent on the job at the owners insistance. All but one of these has finally paid us from last year. THAT is why I no longer do flat rate quotes. Louis

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 11-22-2005, 01:35 PM:

Like an architect that designs a theatre with the booth floor LEVEL with the auditorium floor? And no one caught the problem until I arrived, and drywall had already been hung? [Eek!]

A quoted per hour labor + expense's charge sounds good to me.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 11-22-2005, 02:11 PM:

Again, thanks for the input. I have done so many installs, they all become a blur. I know all of the obstacles along the way. I was just curious how the flat rate was handled. My last install, after 7 days of sitting in my hotel room waiting for the screen guys to finish, I finally left. But I was paid for those 7 days of coming in and yelling at the workers!!! Don't get me wrong, It is good money, just not the way I like to earn it. As a said before, 8,000 for 3 weeks seemed a little low, because I know the estimated 3 weeks will be more like 6. I know how to handle this now. Thanks for the input, Rick

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-22-2005, 07:31 PM:

Quickbooks is okay for many things...it sucks as an inventory program.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-22-2005, 09:23 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Quickbooks is okay for many things...it sucks as an inventory program.

I think it really just depends on how you aproach using the inventory system it offers. You have to be dead accurate in using it from day one or all hell can break loose and you end up with a big mess. Inputing inventory data during an actual inventory is also a breeze if done with a laptop or computer not on the network system, Just do the inventory and then do a Quickbooks data transfer update fomr that computers data...... Its a breeze, not that its not time consuming as any inventory is. But done right its not any more time consuming that doing it the manual paper route. Again, Its meant to be a paperless book keeping system although it is certainly capable of generating any sort of paper output you might need. There are even better programs out there but they cost as much as the profit you make in a year!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-23-2005, 12:24 AM:

Nah, we have had to abandon it for inventory and purchasing. We might have three different vendors for the same part...each vendor may have a different part number for the part yet we will stock it under our number...which may be a Simplex or Century number...Quickbooks can't handle that...the part number is the part number.

You order a widget this year and it is $10.00 net...you order it next year and it is $11.00 net...does Quickbooks update the price on the PO or on the Invoice? Nope...you have to go back and update both prices eventhough you had to update the price during the receiving and payment process (and Quickbooks is keeping tabs on your average price). That is just plain dumb.

I will agree that most accounting packages cost a lot for what they do. Accounting packages also somehow have been accepted as something you have to continually pay for to keep it supported...that is...tech support is not a given without paying some sort of fee. It is not like these programs are bug free.

Quickbooks has many sterling qualities to it but you can have its Inventory and PO modules...they need much work.

There was a program that I thought had an EXCELLENT PO and Inventory modules but the other accounting modules sucked real bad...Cougar Mountain Software. It handled everyone's part numbers just fine...kept tabs on what you paid and how you wanted to sell it, based on your last cost or by a fixed number you wanted and even had pricing levels based on quantity...You could even have aliases so one part could have two names...Want to have one bing for a bearing but it can be called a BG-259 or P-3368 in Simplex and Century vernacular? No problem! It did a decent job with sorting everything so when inventory counting came...the sheets corresponded to where the part(s) are stored.

Right now we are working with an augmentation program to Quickbooks called "Fishbowl"...it has many of the features that we liked in CMS' Inventory and PO program but allows Quickbooks to contine to handle everything else.

The problem I see with most accounting programs is that they are written based on the author's ideas on accounting...it isn't based on your ideas or needs. The key seems to be to find one that is a best fit and then work around the rest (and try to pursuade the software company to put in the features you need). With larger companies like Intuit (Quickbooks), your voice is a bit smaller than with smaller companies that really depend on word of mouth.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-23-2005, 12:28 PM:

Steve,

Again I think it all how you approach doing it. All dealers have several vendors for alot of the part numbers. We simply specify a W for Wolk or a S for strong after the PN in our inventory. For some parts I oprefer one vendors over the others so it makes pricing them quite easy on service tickets and invoices. Designating them this way makes it easy to have multiple vendors for one part on the same inventory. I agree on the pricing part of it...has to be manually updated every year and there are ALOT of part numbers.... takes one of our staff the better part of a week just to do small parts. the rest of updating can always be ongoing when ever a new price list comes out.... just simply update your prices. Thats pretty easy and not real time consuming either.

I can guarantee you when it comes down to audits if its all on QB then the audit will go very fast and more likely in your favor unless there are huge mistakes in taxes or something like that.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-23-2005, 05:14 PM:

Oh, we've been through the suffixes a bit... L, W and S...but that is on top of everything...that is primarily for US to know the quality grade on a particular part. Fishbowl allows that too. However, if you are making say a Mouser order and need some nick nacks...their numbers do not correspond to actual numbers...then again, the next order may be from Digi-key and their numbers are unique. Or to keep it in the Cinema industry...Strong...you really need to have the 81-xxxxxx number on the PO with the P-xxxx number so you have a good cross reference since the person checking in the order may not have a clue as to what it should really be. With Fishbowl working with Quickbooks...we have that...all suppliers see THEIR numbers...we see OUR numbers/names...once the PO is "received" the handoff is made to Quickbooks with just the push of the button and it now is an Account Payable.

We gave Quickbooks quite a bit of a try and it just didn't work for our inventory or ordering system very well and was a great set back as compared to the old accounting system (CMS)...however the books are in much better shape with Quickbooks and the accounting people ALWAYS win the arguements!

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-24-2005, 11:27 PM:

Eh, $500 a day plus burgers and I'm happy.

Seriously, the company I worked for in the late 80s was getting $3K per screen, 2 wks. for an 8 plex, all wired on-site. I'm with the others, though. Today, you have to go time and materials. That puts the monkey on the owner's and/or general contractor's backs. Same way with service contracts.. NO unlimited emergencies! It's abused. They expect you to come in and clean the friggin' trash cans when you've got someone across state who's down. [Roll Eyes]