Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: But the film touches the floor anyways....

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Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 11-21-2005, 07:25 PM:

Hey Everyone,

Been working a lot lately and finally had a chance to get back on the site.

We all know that film + floor = bad.

The answer may be very simple, but here's my question:

I've noticed that no matter how hard I try to keep the film off the floor, when the tail runs through the projector and the platter takes up the rest just before it shuts down, ready to be threaded for the next show, the platter pulls the film from the lower projector roller, and quickly sweeps it across the floor.

Is the anyway to prevent the platter from doing this? Is there anyway to make sure the film never touches the floor?

The platter in question is the Strong/Potts platters, older models, some with switches, others self-calibrating. We have a mixed bag at this theatre.

Thanks!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-21-2005, 09:00 PM:

If your automation is programmable you could re-program it to stop at the last cue instead of doing a runout. Something like running in intermission mode. This way the film will stop in the machine and you could then remove the film yourself.

The other obvious option is to eliminate the booth floors all together! Ok, that won't work... but try the idea above.

Mark

Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 11-21-2005, 09:18 PM:

Thanks, Mark.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-21-2005, 09:24 PM:

Assuming you are adding plenty of EXTRA tail leader to the print, don't worry about the last couple of feet hitting the floor. At that point your movie is over and there should be 30-50 feet of "junk film" to protect the end of the movie, so even as the dirt migrates from layer to layer, unless you are running that print for a long time, it will never affect the actual movie.

The issue of the floor is the LEADER. With the tail scenario above, big deal if the last few feet have dirt on it and that dirt gets into the projector. The projector is going (or should) be cleaned before every thread anyway. The problem is with people letting the head leader hit the floor, because as the dirt migrates from layer to layer, it gets onto the first trailer (or more) and then you have that dirt in the projector to muck up your print. (Plus it is quite unprofessional to hit the screen with a dirty trailer or ad. That's the customer's first impression of your presentation.)

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-22-2005, 12:42 AM:

....why it's a good idea to learn how to learn how to "reverse lace" the machine. This way, the head leads never touch the floor.

It takes a bit of time to master the "reverse lace", but once you get the hang of it, it's like learning how to tie your shoelaces again-but in a different way.

-Monte

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-22-2005, 01:40 AM:

I do what Mark suggests -- I put a piece of junk film on the end, with the "intermission cue" at the head of the junk film. The machine stops with the last few feet of film still in the projector. When I get to the booth, I just motor that last film out, and it's easy to spin it onto the platter quickly and it doesn't hit the floor (well, at least it doesn't lay there and collect dust!)

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 11-22-2005, 06:27 AM:

Even with extra tail on a platter, the tail drags on the floor, picking up dust & dirt, then transfers it to the rollers all the rollers on the platter on its way to the takeup deck.

Then on the next run, it drags through every *other* roller & surface in the platter brain, up & down the platter tree, wall-mounted rollers, along every inch of the film path through the projector, rollers on the cue detector, & bottom reel arm, leaving behind the crap it didn't transfer to the rollers, etc. earlier. Then it does again, & again.

I keep the film off the floor when threading, but Andrew is right: inherently, as platters drag film on the floor at the end of the show, it's inescapable that the system dirties the film & film path.

You can keep the film off the floor running reels, but not a platter. And that doesn't change the reason for keeping the film off the floor.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 11-22-2005, 06:35 AM:

Why does everyone use platters anyway? wouldn't a tower be a better system? I'm still doing change overs but our theatre is thinking of getting a tower for longer running films...

-paul

Posted by John Koutsoumis (Member # 1855) on 11-22-2005, 06:59 AM:

Paul, better to stay with the changeovers (2000's [thumbsup]

).
Don't tower systems require rewinding of the reel? I don't think they would be practical in todays Megaplexes. Platters are fine as long as the equipment and operation is tops.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-22-2005, 07:02 AM:

Well certainly running reels is the proper solution here...film never hit the floor!

Another advantage of the "intermission" type cue is that you know it took when you arrive to rethread the machine.

Kinoton ST200E platters have a "tail wind" mode when the tail runs through...it goes into high speed for several seconds just to pull the tail through quickly.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-22-2005, 08:00 AM:

Yes, lots of tail leader will help keep the dirt from getting onto the final minutes of the film. In actuality, an old trailer on Kodak VISION Color Print Film is likely a better choice than most leaders that are sold, as the Kodak VISION Color Print Film has a conductive backing layer that helps reduce any static charging that attracts and holds dirt to the film. Most leaders do NOT have static protection, and can develop a significant static charge that will attract dirt.

If you use an old 2383 trailer for tail leader, just be sure to cue off the light and sound at the end of the feature credits.

Also, keep the floor CLEAN (duh!). Use a central vacuum system or damp mop the floor frequently to keep it free of dust and debris that will get on the film.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-22-2005, 08:09 AM:

quote:
Well certainly running reels is the proper solution here...film never hit the floor!

Only if you've got cans on the machnes! Otherwise flop da flop da flop da flop till the motor stops... and it also flops against the oily bottom of the sound reproducer....
So reels really don't qualify without mags as they too let the film flop on the floor.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-22-2005, 09:13 AM:

Actually a system of support rollers (a few on top; many on bottom) would also keep the tail off the floor on a platter.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-22-2005, 07:25 PM:

Nonsense Mark...no need to have the tail go flopping on the floor...a proper changeover booth in this Century should certainly have Kinoton FP 30ER machines (or ES)...film stops, rewinds and is ready for the next show...up to 12K per machine too for even the longest of the Kevin Costner flicks.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-22-2005, 08:00 PM:

Of course, with 14.5" diameter reels, only about 45" of film is exposed at the tail, versus several feet with a platter.

And, yes, it _is_ possible to run a platter house and not let the film touch the floor with a little bit of effort. I usually try to grab the tail as it comes out of the projector and guide it by hand to the platter tree. Obviously, this isn't practical on a large scale, but is entirely do-able in a single/twin/triple house.

John--will Kodak print stock retain its anti-static properties if the image is bleached out and the film then rinsed in Photo-Flo? I don't use film with picture as tail leader due to the possibility that it might confuse someone and/or be projected on the screen at some point.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-22-2005, 10:39 PM:

The conductive antistat in Kodak VISION Color Print Film is on the back side of the film, and does not come off during processing, bleaching or rewashing.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-23-2005, 02:14 AM:

scott, out of curiosity, why even bother with the photo-flo? in all likelihood (and hopefully) the tail leader won't ever show on the screen so i don't see a splotchy dry-job as being an issue. just seems like extra effort and expense.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-24-2005, 09:38 AM:

Using a wetting agent in the final rinse is very inexpensive, and will aid uniform drying.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 11-24-2005, 03:23 PM:

Threading w/platters - Habbits everyone should consider:

1.) Keep your floor clean!

2.) Clean the projector out before you thread up!

3.) When taking up the tail leader after a show got out, pinch it between your index and middle finger in a scisor grip, thus pushing any of the larger dust particles off the leader.

4.) Thread up and keep the leader off the floor.

Learning to thread up is hard if your'e not used to it, but it made me a lot faster and a hell of a lot more accurate.
--Dom

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 11-24-2005, 03:24 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Kinoton ST200E platters have a "tail wind" mode when the tail runs through...it goes into high speed for several seconds just to pull the tail through quickly.

How does it know when the movie is over and the film has run out of the projector?

I used to work at an older theater where we had lots of problems with the final cue not always working. Therefore, I added black leader, not junk film, to the end of the film. I still think that's a good idea, just in case the final cue is not read. I don't want to take any chances of that junk film being shown on screen or heard through the sound system.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 11-24-2005, 03:32 PM:

quote: Ken Lackner
I used to work at an older theater where we had lots of problems with the final cue not always working. Therefore, I added black leader, not junk film, to the end of the film. I still think that's a good idea, just in case the final cue is not read. I don't want to take any chances of that junk film being shown on screen or heard through the sound system.

I'd think it would be a particularly big issue if for some reason the takeup on the platter failed, thus creating enough slack to trigger the high-speed takeup, then yanking the shit out of the lower magazine roller and projector.

Anyhow, as long as the cues detect you're alright. To prevent digital kicking back in I place our junk film upside down.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-24-2005, 04:12 PM:

When you have programable electronics...one can set up senerios as to how something will perform based on prior events (causal).

So, take the "tail out" mode...if the take up speed sensor assy moves rapidly from a normal position to the "off" position...that would be a tail out...no other senerio could cause that. This is particularly true if it is set up like a state-machine such that the tail out mode can only happen after the take up mode has been operating for a period of time. Note too, the Kinoton platter has always had a projector input where a dry contact to the projector motor lets the platter know when the motor is running. Unlike every other platter, the Kinoton neednt "react" to the motor starting at the beginning of the show...it just starts. If you stop it mid show for say an intermission...it know what speed it was running when you stopped it...when you restart, it will be going that speed again. The engineers really did an outstanding job on the electronics of this unit...there are Kinotonisms that I don't like...like having the payout module (aka brain, take-off unit...etc) be what sets the mode. You HAVE to remove the payout module for the platter to function as a take up...that is just plain silly. If the take up speed sensor roller is moved into a take up mode...it is obviously a take up platter...furthermore...if no film is in the payout module, then the IR sensors should know that and it can't be a payout platter.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 11-24-2005, 05:44 PM:

I carry a rag with a little FG on it, and wipe the tail leader lightly when I wind it up.

Our prints look really nice all the way to the end.