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Posted by Corey J. Esser (Member # 3526) on 12-31-2005, 02:14 PM:
 
~~~I am in the process of replacing our current CFS ESP-platter system & am interested in seeing what other projectionists/managers think is the best choice for new platters.

Our support company is trying to sell us 6 "super platter" systems, but from the research I've done online those don't sound like very good systems.

Any advice/links/personal experience is appreciated.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-31-2005, 02:57 PM:
 
The ESP platter handles film very well, similar to a Christie or Kinoton platter. Parts are available from the company that took over most of the CFS product line......Lighting Images Technology. Dick Niccum, the owner, was the chief engineer and co-owner of CFS. Super Platter is their economy line of platters and most people complaints are regarding the "antique" microswitch model which does not handle film as well as the ESP. The Super Platter line does have an upgraded "electronic" version....so what is your vendor selling you??

www.lightingimages.com
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2005, 03:14 PM:
 
The Super Platter is probably my most hated platter of all time. See this review.

If however you want a quality platter, there are 3 solid choices.

*Christie AW3. Best platter out there. Needs no modifications. Mid-priced unit.

*Kinoton ST-200. Solid platter, but has some stupid design flaws like not being able to use 2 brains, a different threading path if using the bottom platter, no place to mount a film cleaner, etc. On the flip side it's built like a tank! Watch the Kinoton/Ian Challenge to see what I mean. Expect to pay quite nicely for this unit.

*SPECO LP-270. Very smooth platter, but their brain design needs some serious work. See the LP-280 review on this site to see how you can redesign the brains. Also beware the three upper rollers on the elevator are on shafts that are easily bent. The payout rollers on the side of the tree need extended bolts on them so static electricity doesn't drag the film up against the tree and scratch it. Finally every roller needs to have a keeper roller added. Beware also this platter suffers from having "fins" underneath the deck for support. See the Strong platter review to see what kind of damage this can cause if you need to makeup or breakdown on a deck over a payout deck. This is a economy priced platter.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-31-2005, 03:46 PM:
 
I love that review on the STRONG platters that Joe wrote in the review section.

I've done two small modifications:

1-With the older brains with that tri-roller setup with the bracket over the center roller, I disassembled that unit and place the bracket underneath the angled roller as the newer brains look like. Easy *mod* there. And much easier threading.

2-On the MUT: the communication cord. That ball stop LOVES to take the wiring out of the MOLEX connector-even with the strain relief in place, since most booth clowns just let that cord snap back into the MUT housing. To end this problem, I took the ball stop and moved it down the cord about six inches, then on each side of the ball, took wire ties - one by each end of the ball - and secured the wraps so the ball is locked in this position. With this, the ball doesn't hammer against the MOLEX connector and wanting to yank the wires out of the connector housing.

STRONG platters aren't that bad if one knows how to operate and work with them.. But, if you have the microswitch variety insted of the phase control variety, plan on replacing switches once a year, since they won't let you know when the get tired.. they just do.

..little tips... thx -Monte
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-31-2005, 03:51 PM:
 
There is one thats even worse by my expereince with them over the last 5 years and that is the entire Xetron/Neumade Neutronic(Neurotic) line of platters.. Absolute crap! I'd take a well tuned Super Platter ANY DAY over a Neurotic Platter. The people that built and designed these should have been forced to run a multoplex full of them as punishment . I can thank the lord that I never ran into any of these in the previous 16 years of working in this field

Here's my list......

1. Lousy payout head locating pin that constantly falls out. The payout head then just spins in the center of the deck .

2. The reed switches in the P.O. head on the older models and the funky conversion to microswitch kit to replace them.

3. The use of a cheapo Phone Plug on the payout head "plug" assy that constantly gets broken when payout heads are dropped.

4. Motor drive boards that burst into flames..... ever see the Enamel coating on a 50 watt vitrous enamel resistor melt... that takes a ton of heat to accomplish.

5. Newly designed motor druve boards that are not compatable with older motors.

6. No normal booth monger is ever able to understand anything about them.

If you have them take em to the nearest dump or scrap metal place. Use the ten bucks you get from the scrap value to put towards one of the platters that Brad mentioned..... or at least go get a good stiff drink.

Like I told ya Brad... Ya gotta come here and see some of this stuff .

Mark
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2005, 04:00 PM:
 
But that would mean coming to Utah!!!

quote: from the movie Orgazmo

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Lisa: Excuse me, could you tell me what movie this is?
Video Store Clerk: [laughs] What movie this is? Where have you been, under a rock?
Lisa: No, I'm from Utah.
Video Store Clerk: Oh, I'm sorry.

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-31-2005, 04:11 PM:
 
My list is:

Kinoton ST-200E. There are some definately stupid designs in it (the brain determines the payout/take up mode rather than the take up roller thus only one brain may be installed at a time, as Brad noted). They have changed their threading path on the unit to eliminate the bottom platter being a unique threading path but the last one I worked with had all of the take up paths unique...needs work there. However, bar none...this unit handles film the best.

Strong's SCDC platter. It is my best bang for the buck...very few problems in our service area with this one...ready to go out of the create every time. It has the wind-strom issue as the SPECO do via the support fins and it has no back tension for break down...but overall...a good value in my book.

Christie seems to be the favorite around here and in the right hands they can do well...then again, they are the most serviced platter we have to deal with. Their roller design sucks in that they constantly go out of round due to their bearing method...we have one customer that is using the MUT rollers with the needle bearings in lieu of the "correct" roller and the metal rollers (for anti-static) since they are flangless and have the needle bearings. The Christie platter and their rollers are notorious for putting a bounce in the film path on payout. Again, in the right hands they are decent tool though I'm not as enamored with their film handling design as others and have found them to damage film more easily than other designs. Building up and tearing down on a Christie is certainly the best.

Having grown up on SPECO LP-270s I have a soft spot in my heart for them. They too are a good value in the mid-priced platter line.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-31-2005, 04:25 PM:
 
I agree with Steve, for the LP-270's were my first platter that I started with when leaving the carbon arc world. I worked with those Drive-In's for a good 8 yrs and the only problem I had with them is that plugin 8-pin diode assembly in the control head, which loved to go out and blow fuses. This had to happen at least twice year, so I had a small stockpile of those assemblies.

As for the motor tires, I would raise them a half inch every six months and then lower them so they wouldn't get that noticable "groove" cut in the tire and would last longer.

-Monte
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2005, 04:26 PM:
 
Steve, the SPECO LP-270 beats the Strong crap hands down and I would not have a problem installing or operating at a theater with them. Plus it handles film much better than the Strong does. For operating, when it works properly, the Strong SCDC is acceptable, but far more often than not I see those things over and back-wrapping. Also their buildup/teardown is a joke and not in the best interest of the film. They shouldn't even be considered for a new install. If money is tight, buy the SPECO.

How often does this happen on a Strong brain? A LOT!



It's not elegant, but at least it works to get rid of the stupid "upside down" payout arm...


Here is a video of the awesomeness of a Strong SCDC payout in action! AVI file

...and another
...and another
...and another!

Here is a "stock" Strong brain in action. (Yes I had to drill and tap the film cleaner mount.) Note the lousy backtension.


Here is a "Christie modified" Strong brain in action. Problem solved!


Another angle...


And you actually LIKE these crappy platters Steve???
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-31-2005, 04:41 PM:
 
But Brad, I would have a nice fresh "Religeons Of The World" T-Shirt for you to wear......you could ACTUALLY make a statement while you're here. I wear one of these once ina while... stops folks on North Temple dead in their tracks .



Really, its not that bad.... its actually pretty good.... lots of great places to eat too. But ya really got to see some of these places .

I agree, The three platters on Brads list are really the only three I would normally consider. I would take "Big Sky" platter over the Strong any day because of its unique drive system and its very reliable... the decks are just a little on the light side though.... with any Stong you still have the dam vaccum motors to service and after the things been running for 6 or 7 years they'll need servicing or replacement. While the motors on all the other mentioned systems run and run and run and then can be rebuilt for another 20 years of service.

Mark
 

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Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 12-31-2005, 06:58 PM:
 
My only complaint about the Speco 280's has been the number of motor control / encoder boards we've gone through in the past year since the installation. In the fourteen platters purchased for two different locations, I've changed four payout / takeup control boards and swapped over ten different motor boards. Speco engineers could find nothing wrong with the motor boards, yet the DS1 and DS2 indicator LED's were both dead.

Other than that, they aren't all that bad. Chosing a good platter is like picking your own poison.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2005, 07:01 PM:
 
Note to Aaron-we are talking about LP-270s.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-31-2005, 07:28 PM:
 

quote: Aaron Mehocic

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Speco engineers could find nothing wrong with the motor boards, yet the DS1 and DS2 indicator LED's were both dead.

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quote:

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How often does this happen on a Strong brain? A LOT!

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quote: Gordon McLeod

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The only times I have seen the strong payout plugs damaged like that is when they get dropped or forced into the socket which is not the design fault but the idiots using it

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I disagree. A piece of equipment that is meant to be used many hours a day for years shouldn't have such a weak point made out of plastic! If that part was made out of metal, it wouldn't be a problem. As it is, it's a lousy design.
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 01-01-2006, 10:49 AM:
 
I agree the plug is a lousy design, but if the people handling them would not constantly drop them and slam them down, they would not break. I do like the christie platter. I, however, like the strong better. I have had less problems with the strong platters then the christies. Personally, I have found srtong platters to be more reliable. Sorry Brad
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-01-2006, 11:45 AM:
 
Just get the AW3. You won't regret it. They are easy to time, don't damage film, and the electronics are easy to swap out in the event of problems. They are also by far the easiest platters for trailer changes. The also use aluminum decks and should be fine for mag-striped 35mm and 70mm film, if you should have the need to run it. There should be plenty of used and/or rebuilt units available given the number of theatres that have closed in the last few years.

I haven't worked with Strong platters. I have worked with the Super Platter and dislike it. The LP-270 is OK, but the old horizontal MUT is lacking. The new vertical MUT is probably much better, but I haven't seen one in person.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-01-2006, 12:58 PM:
 
Funny that plastic part has not had much of a history of damage in the many strongs I service
when they hae been dropped the theatres seem to look at replacing the operator with the plug at the same time it seemms to cut down on repeat damage
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 01-01-2006, 02:13 PM:
 
My point exactly.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-01-2006, 02:21 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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As it is, it's a lousy design.

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quote: Brad Miller

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This is why they hire minimum wage high school kids to run the booth and provide next to no training. It's all about saving a buck. Screw the presentation.

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...kind of a bleak future we're facing, isn't it?

What's really sad is some circuits, large or small, buy Christie, install Christie, swear by Christie and worship Christe, but have all of this "goofball" training done on them to where the presentation results doesn't give the equipment any credit due that they were designed to be..as you mention of better film handling.

Scratching prints on a first or second pass with the special showings or one important screening just doesn't work with "goofball" training - no matter what brand of equipment there is handling the film.

It seems like these circuits, mentioned above, are fully DEPENDING on this one named brand to justify the better film handling and presentations... - and not look at the other side of the coin which is proper training...(which is a nevenending story here to tell...)

..a go-figure thing at times...

thx-Monte
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-01-2006, 02:50 PM:
 
I think Louis summed it up pretty well.

Monte - there are just as many theaters buying the Christie package as there are the Strong package. I haven't noticed either to get any better training than another. What I have noticed is that the presentation quality DOES seem to depend on the equipment selected. Overall Christie package booths put on a better quality presentation than a Strong package booth.

Looking at projector models as an example, out of everything Strong makes, the Century is bar none the easiest projector to learn how to thread, and it also handles film the best out of everything that have to offer. Their second best option is the Simplex. A little more difficult to learn to thread, but not by much (mainly the soundhead). Unfortunately the soundhead design leaves much to be desired in terms of film damage, so a theater running Centurys in general can run a print twice as long as a theater running Simplexes with exactly the same care (without film cleaners) and achieve the same on-screen print quality. Strong's third option is that Apogee projector, which upon initial observation looked intriguing...but in reality it sucks much, much ass. Whoever thought that the lower loop should be about as big as a pencil is nuts. Plus if you make that lower loop just a TAD bit too big, you end up with HORRIBLE scratching!!! What's worse is even if the projector is perfectly threaded, a misframe and rack of the framing will suddenly start laying down these horrible scratches. Fair warning to anyone even considering buying this stupid machine...unless you have truly professional operators, stay away! If you want to buy Strong, buy the Century.

Christie only has 2 models, the P35GPS and the Cinex. The P35GPS is insanely easy to thread (probably bar non the easiest on the market), whereas the Cinex is more difficult. As such film damage tends to happen moreso in Cinex theaters over P35GPS theaters.

For platters, comparing the Strong vs. the Christie, there are two things to consider. First I see misthreads on the Strong frequently, as not all of their rollers have keeper rollers on them. Also some bonehead decided the top deck needed it's own special threading path (kind of like the bottom deck on a Kinoton). In a booth lacking training, I see both top rollers threaded over and then the film run down to the lower two decks, thus scratching the film quite nicely! I also see platter scratches coming from Strong platters because if the motor mount is adjusted a little bit too high or there is a warp in the deck, Strong's final roller has no height adjustment. There is also no backtension on breakdown, which means cinch scratching and occasionally the operator will stop the MUT too fast and the deck will continue to spin out of control, flinging film across the booth! As such, the Strong platter is quite easy to scratch film with.

On the flip side, if the Christie isn't properly timed (don't read the manual, do it my way), it can sling longer movies off of the deck easier than the Strong can. But these platters suffer NONE of the other problems that the Strong do, and the slinging can be fixed by either timing them properly or using a safety ring if you can't seem to figure out the timing procedure. Indeed if you have a staff that is even halfway professional, the Christie is by far the better choice. I suppose the monkey booths can keep buying the Strong.
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 01-01-2006, 02:58 PM:
 
One big problem I find with the christies is that the operators have their own idea of how fast the decks should spin. So what do they do? They play with the pots not knowing what the hell they are adjusting. I don't have that problem with strong platters. With very little adjustments to do on strongs, very little goes wrong with them. As far as caring about presentation and film handling, I do and have had no problems with the strong platters. As for parts needing to be replaced, I have replaced many more parts on christies than strongs and it's not because I don't know how to set them up. Unless following the instuctions and film-tech's tips are wrong.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-01-2006, 03:00 PM:
 
So, let's go back to the original question: needed advice on new platter system -

It's kinda like going to find a new car. We go to three different dealerships (since we've read testimonies of three platters - LP-270's, A(AP)3s, and the AW3(R) - and we hear three salesman express the quality of their cars and how this one certain car works.

NOW, if possible, is for Corey to go to three theatres (or, better yet, a parts/equipment distributor) and "test drive" these three platters (if available) mentioned. This will allow him a choice, first hand, which one would fill his need.

-Monte
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 01-01-2006, 03:03 PM:
 
Monte, don't get the extended warranty. It's a rip off. LOL
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-01-2006, 03:12 PM:
 
Brad...of the many Strongs we have in service...we now have had exactly one SCDC payout mech. cease to payout properly. The rest are running very well.

As to the plug on the Strong payout...yup it is a weak point, no denying that...though we've never had one so mangled as the one you've shown.

I would never modify a Strong payout with the Christie roller as I think the Christie rollers are part of their weak points.

Without a doubt...of the platters in our service, the most amout of damage is happening on the Christie's...they need more attention for timing, have far more component failures (rollers, drive tires with never a good batch unless you buy Wolk, LED modules that are all over the place, the same with the photocells. The white posts on the payouts are notorious for losening up and gouging out the aluminum deck...the list is almost endless).

If money was no object, I would get the Kinoton ST200E...period.

The Strong SCDC has done very well for us and has a reputation around here for being very reliable and NOT damaging film. We have one customer that is getting ready to rip out a Christie AW35 and put in a Strong for the excessive issues they have with the Christies vs the Strongs they have.

I would also not discount the LP270 and it is very easy on the film.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-01-2006, 03:28 PM:
 
Must be something about the new year but Steve and I agree on something
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-01-2006, 03:31 PM:
 
Richard, sounds like your booths need better training.

Steve, if the Strongs make you happy (or the profit margin is higher), keep selling them. Of all these problems you claim to have, the only ones I have seen are the drive tire issues, of which you can buy Wolk or the current Christie ones. I urge you to download those videos I posted earlier and tell me that the Strongs there are acceptable to you, because I thought you were one of the techs with pretty high standards out there.

(Even if you have never seen those issues, there is still no excuse for that uber-shitty MUT they have, film handling in general for loading/breakdown and the piss poor feed backtension that makes running a film cleaner almost useless.)
 

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 01-01-2006, 04:34 PM:
 
Just a note on the Strong SCDC platter. I have eight of them that have been running smooth for six years, and not a single wrap during that time. No timing issues whatsoever.

Now, the Strong microswitch platters are another matter. Timing them is a pain in the ass, and yes, you do have to change out the microswitches. When walking the booth, they can give you heart failure when you glance at one that is temporarily at a dead stop on payout.
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 01-01-2006, 04:44 PM:
 
Brad, many booths need better training. People will still play with things no matter how much you train them. As far as Steve's comments go, those are all the same problems I run into and I don't live anywhere near him. Must not be the techs. I will continue to buy strong platters and recommend them to my customers without any guilt of sub par presentations.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-01-2006, 04:57 PM:
 
Brad, as you should know by now...I go with what works best...first and formost...not based on cost or profit margins. I'm not a huge fan of the Strong MUT and Christie is certainly my favorite there, I don't dislike it with as much passion as you do. I agree that the lack of back tension on breakdown is something that should be corrected (I think you came up with a $5 Home Depot solution).

My findings are my findings...they may not agree with yours. I can't explain your videos since I have yet to come across that in the many SCDCs we have. The DMCs, if not calibrated periodically will indeed have timing issues but timing is very fast and fixes the problem instantly.

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-01-2006, 05:09 PM:
 
I do wonder just how many prints Steve and Richard actually build/thread/breakdown on Strong platters. Isn't it mostly just servicing for you guys? Put yourself in the projectionist's shoes. They have to work with those things every day. Daily operating ease, reliability and the way a piece of equipment handles the film is in my book is #1 priority. I suppose we will have to disagree forever on this because the Strong platters are just crap in my opinion.

I urge both of you to write Strong and get them to resolve the backtension problem on breakdown which causes cinch scratching, the upside down payout arm that makes threading (and particularly un-threading) a major pain, the little rollers around the brain that the film likes to jump over during threading and cause brain wraps, the complete lack of payout backtension which makes cleaning a film almost impossible, the takeup elevator that frequently crashes during threading and knocks rollers out of alignment thus scratching more film, the rollers without keepers where the film can fly off during threading and scratch the film some more, the double takeup path issue which if misthreaded scratches the film, the lack of not being able to adjust the height on the final roller to prevent platter scratches, the plastic ring at the base of the brain's axle that is easily broken, the flimsy center rings that bend during print moves which lay tiny cinch scratches on the print, and that complete disaster of a thing they call the MUT. Watch as they refuse to do a damned thing to improve their product in any way or to make it more foolproof, because they simply do not care. That's Wrong International for ya!

It's a shitty product guys and the Christie suffers NONE of these problems.

This thread is just going in circles now. THREAD CLOSED
 

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