Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Screening old prints

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Posted by Peter Brown (Member # 3272) on 01-03-2006, 03:47 AM:

Happy New Year, everyone!

I have to show some old (up to 50 years old) prints on a Victoria 4, and was wondering if anyone had any advice or tips they'd be willing to share? I know some of the prints suffer from broken sprocket holes and I suspect that the three rollers between the intermittent and sound drum may exacerbate these - is this right?

Is there a method of threading that will minimise the curvature of the film?

I'd be very grateful for any suggestions you all may have.

Many thanks,
Peter.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 01-03-2006, 02:35 PM:

In a nutshell: Inspect, Inspect, Inspect...
I once had an old nitrate print go up in smoke because of a broken splice.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-03-2006, 03:08 PM:

The vic 4 like the most of the cinemecanica line is very gentle on film so they should probably not have many problems
Check pad roller clearances as there will probably be cement splice that must clear
Also if 50 years old verify that no nitrate is involved and if there is confirm that the booth is properly outfitted for it and correct permits granted

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 01-03-2006, 03:21 PM:

The transition from nitrate to safety film occured in the USA in 1950. Films from that year could be on either, and sometimes were mixed by reel as the labs used up whatever nitrate stock they had laying around. All prints struck after 1950 would be safety film.

You need to hand inspect each reel and fix broken sprockets, and check any cement splices. If they are starting to come apart, you need to put a piece of splicing tape over them.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-03-2006, 03:41 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
Also if 50 years old verify that no nitrate is involved and if there is confirm that the booth is properly outfitted for it and correct permits granted.

AFAIK there are only two theatres which are certified to run nitrate in the UK, and neither is anywhere near West Wales.

Peter - please forgive me if you know what nitrate is and I'm stating the bleedin' obvious (with apologies to Basil Fawlty), but if you're not familiar with nitrate, you seriously do not want to get any of it anywhere near a projector without knowing what you're doing. Some basic guidelines for identifying nitrate can be found on our website here.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 01-04-2006, 02:56 AM:

quote: Mitchell Dvoskin
All prints struck after 1950 would be safety film.

Nitrate was still around after that in some parts of the World. I'm not sure if the original "up to 50 years old" was a definite cut-off or an estimate of the age of the oldest prints. There's also the possibility of some old stock still being used. It's very unlikely that a nitrate print is going to turn up, but if you're dealing with prints anywhere near that age, then it's wise to make sure.

The only time I've had an unexpected print turn up it was a Russian 16mm one; stranger things have happened.

As for other problems you're more likely to have, I don't know the Vic. 4, so I can't comment on that. I've run many 50 year old prints; some have been in as-new condition, others have been almost impossible to get through a machine; you really do need to inspect each print very carefully before running it. Bad splices others have mentioned, and are likely. Shrinkage is also possible, and there's not much you can do about it; some machines handle it better than others. The prints may well be dirty. Triacetate film is thicker than polyester, you will probably need to adjust the gate pressure. The prints may be brittle with age, and even new triacetate film is much less tough than polyester, take care not to let the film snatch when starting, especially if running 6k spools or towers.

Best advice I can give is to try to get the prints in as early as possible to give yourself time to inspect, clean, repair, try to get a better print or whatever if there is a problem.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-04-2006, 04:19 AM:

quote: Stephen Furley
The only time I've had an unexpected print turn up it was a Russian 16mm one; stranger things have happened.

I once had a nitrate 16mm of The Green River Flows East with English subtitles. The BFI acquired it in the late '60s, but doesn't know if it's an original (c. 1947) copy or one struck later. It was definitely struck in China, and had no recognisable edge marks whatsoever. As soon as I got it out of the packing cases I noticed the familiar 'mothbally' smell of nitrate. The chief thought I was off my rocker when I told him I thought it might be nitrate, but I eventually persuaded him to let me chop a few frames of spacing from the start of a reel (there was an awful lot of it) and light it in the car park. That convinced him! As the 16mm machines (FP-18s) had no spoolboxes or any other safety gear fitted, we had to show a heavily cut 35mm CTA print instead.

quote: Stephen Furley
The prints may be brittle with age, and even new triacetate film is much less tough than polyester, take care not to let the film snatch when starting, especially if running 6k spools or towers.

If it's running on any sort of long play handling system, it's probably worth sticking a long length of polyester spacing, sufficient to thread through the entire film path, on the start. This should prevent a brittle stock film break on startup.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 01-04-2006, 06:04 AM:

Nitrate stock was still around the UK in 1952, when I was a trainee projectionist, being used up mostly for newsreels. Old nitrate continued in distribution during the early 1950’s for Saturday morning kids and Sunday one day shows.

In 2002 when my cinema closed I showed several reels of 35mm safety film some 50 years old. Although suffering from VS all projected through a pair of Westar projectors satisfactory. Cement splices had been reinforced on the emulsion side with splicing tape or completely replaced. We ran the NFT print of The Pink Panther for a charity screening a few years ago without any kind of problem. The BBFC and U A trade mark was missing, so I put on a U I P one which improved the opening with tabs, and left it on the copy.

Posted by Peter Brown (Member # 3272) on 01-04-2006, 10:01 AM:

Thank you all for your very helpful comments. I'll be sure to check the pad roller clearances will allow cement splices.

I'm 99% sure there'll be no nitrate, but I'll check carefully when I inspect the reels.

Just a thought regarding the three rollers before the sound drum that the film zigzags through - as the outer ones only bear on the very edges of the film (the center one bears across the width of the sprocket holes), is it likely that this extra pressure will cause an unbroken but fragile sprocket hole to tear? I don't think I explained that very well, but I hope you know what I mean.

Cheers!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-04-2006, 11:12 AM:

The "nitrate question" once was quite common in the U.S. According to Kodak (many years ago) their last batch was 1948. so 1950 sounds about right.

Remember old films had the edge marked "safety film" or "nitrate film." Louis

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-04-2006, 11:30 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
The "nitrate question" once was quite common in the U.S. According to Kodak (many years ago) their last batch was 1948. so 1950 sounds about right.

Although Kodak introduced safety film for motion picture products in 1948, the conversion took about four years. Here is what the Kodak website says:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/chrono2.jhtml?id=0.1.6.20.4&lc=en

quote:
1948

Safety Base developed to replace Nitrate Base Films.
Kodak announced a 35 mm tri-acetate safety base film for the motion picture industry to replace the flammable cellulose nitrate base. Conversion from Nitrate to Safety Base begins, complete conversion takes approximately 4 years.

1949

Improved Safety Base Motion Picture Film -- Awarded OSCAR --(22nd Academy Year) Class I. Scientific or Technical Award

1950

EASTMAN Fine Grain Release Positive film, 5302. Safety base replacement for 1302. (B&W) Replace nitrate with acetate.
EASTMAN Fine Grain Duplicating Film, 5365. Replaced 1365 (nitrate).
EASTMAN Fine Grain Panchromatic Duplicating Film, 5203. Replaced 1203 (nitrate).

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-04-2006, 02:36 PM:

In July 1950 a Kodak spokesman announced that the manufacture of nitrate had ended and that the conversion to safety was '85% complete'.

Here is an article I wrote 3-4 years ago on the nitrate to safety conversion, which has all the references to the dates and figures I was able to find.

Edited to insert link

[ 01-05-2006, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Leo Enticknap ]

Posted by Jerry D. Cox (Member # 701) on 01-04-2006, 03:40 PM:

I beleave that the last Big Movie that was made in Nitrate was The Gratest Show On Earth I was working at A Dr-In back in1953 An I was off one night an the guy that was working was running a Nitrate print an it brook an burn three reels up befor he could get out of the booth,We were down for two days.Geting the Proj.clean

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 01-05-2006, 02:42 PM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
If it's running on any sort of long play handling system, it's probably worth sticking a long length of polyester spacing, sufficient to thread through the entire film path, on the start. This should prevent a brittle stock film break on startup.

Excellent advice, and I've found it very helpful to replace the Academy Leader as well with a modern polyester version just for the screening. It means you can thread up, run down and then start without worrying about film breakage on the leader as well.

All from bitter experience running an archive programme on a new Vic 5 with B5000 base...we found that prints would break even though the head was replaced with polyester spacing. Our mistake was to leave the original Academy Leaders on!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-05-2006, 03:54 PM:

Remember, you would NEVER run nitrate film from anything other than reels of less than 2000 feet on a projector certified for nitrate use (enclosed fireproof magazines, fire rollers, automatic fire shutter). Some may still rule that 1000 feet should be the maximum length in any roll. Here is the USA NFPA 40 regulations:

NFPA 40 Regulations for Nitrate Film

quote:
Safeguards for still and motion picture film storage in a single source!

NFPA 40 provides guidelines for the storage and handling of cellulose nitrate motion picture film. Coverage includes information on film cabinets, vaults, archival vaults, projection rooms, and film exchanges.

The 2001 Code has been expanded to include requirements for flat (still) cellulose nitrate film as well as motion picture cellulose nitrate film. This expanded coverage consolidates all cellulose nitrate film storage requirements into one document. (Approx. 18 pp., 2001)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-05-2006, 04:16 PM:

Sorry, good point - my comments about long play systems were in relation to brittle old acetate prints ONLY.