Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CP500 Serial Data Port

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Posted by Brandon Lokesak (Member # 2280) on 01-10-2006, 04:20 PM:

Hi,
I'm trying to hook up our CP500 to a laptop to use the Dolby program to analze the sound setup. However On the back of the CP500 there is something plugged into the port to the left of the Serial Data port Labeled Automation that has a large circuit board attached. The problem is that I cant get the serial cable in there because of the other board thats covering the serial port. Any Ideas? We really dont use automation the only thing thats hooked up to it is the cue detector to dim the lights and change over to house music.

Posted by Alan Gilbertson (Member # 242) on 01-10-2006, 05:43 PM:

The automation break out board is overlapping the serial port. I made a bunch of 8" ribbon cables to hook to the serial port and just left them hang there that way I only needed to unhook the automation connection once.

Posted by Brandon Lokesak (Member # 2280) on 01-10-2006, 07:45 PM:

Thanks, Would you be able to give me some basic instructions on what to do? as far as connection ends? I cant really picture this in my head. Sorry. Thanks again

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-11-2006, 01:22 AM:

You can temporarilly unplug that automation breakout board from the CP-500 to do your serial connection checks. All that card is for the automation to pulse the CP-500 to do its thing during normal show operation.

These tests are made during the use of manual machine operations - no automation is used.

Your laptop should have the DB-9 male socket in which the passthorugh serial cable would be a serial extension cord (one with the DB-9 female on one end and the DB-9 male on the other end).

If your laptop doesn't have the serial port, then you have to get a serial to USB interface device, available from about any electronics retail outlet.

DB-9 is commonly known as the "joystick connection" since early computers used this serial connector for their joysticks.

ATARI, "Ti99/4a" and COMMODORE were famous for their use of this connector.

-Monte

[ 01-11-2006, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 01-13-2006, 10:43 PM:

Do those adapters really work well? (serial to USB). I know their picky. I was told that you might need a port replicator instead of the small adapter, so I was just curious if people really had sucess with the adapters with the CP500, CP650.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-13-2006, 11:58 PM:

The Keyspan variety does indeed work like a charm...never even the least hint of trouble...it lets you have it act as any of the COM ports and programs seem to see the COM port as if it was really there.

I've tried it on many different programs, both cinema (like the CP650 and CP500) as well as non-industry programs...never a problem.

Steve

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 01-15-2006, 07:11 PM:

There are standards for many classes of USB devices. For example, just about every USB keyboard and mouse in existance follows the USB HID (Human Interface Device) standard. There's a standard for handling audio and MIDI data. There's a standard for the lowest level of the printer interface.

The consequence of these standards is that there can be a single USB HID driver for your operating system that knows how to talk to pretty much any USB HID device; if you plug in a random HID device, you probably won't have to install a driver specific to that brand. The same goes for the generic audio, MIDI, and printer interfaces. (However, with printing, the language for the data stream that describes what the page looks like is not standard; it's only how you get that data stream from the computer to the printer that's standardized. But this at least means that if you buy a USB->parallel widget that the manufacturer of that widget didn't have to write a driver from scratch.)

With USB->RS232 widgets, there's no standard at all; every manufacturer writes their own drivers for Windows, and under any other operating system, whether it will be supported at all is something you need to carefully research before buying.

Of course, the code running on the USB device can still be buggy; I recently came across some old USB docking stations which include ps/2 ports for a keyboard and mouse where under Linux the keyboard didn't seem to work and under FreeBSD the mouse didn't seem to work. I assume that I found them on a pile of unloved hardware because they didn't very well, but I'm not really sure.

Posted by Thomas King (Member # 2745) on 01-24-2006, 06:34 AM:

I believe that the CP500 has a serial port header on the main system board, accessible by opening the front. However, you'd need an adaptor to allow you to connect a standard serial cable; you should be able to pick one up at a computer shop. Obviously it's not intended for constant connection, as you don't want to have the front wide open all the time, but it's handy if you need connectivity without having to faff about around the back.

Posted by Jean-Pierre Van Hoof (Member # 2063) on 01-24-2006, 07:49 AM:

Hi,

This is what I use lately and it works great!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-24-2006, 10:46 AM:

I have a Belkin USB to Serial adapter for use with my notebook. I mainly use it to communicate with LED-based electronic message center displays. It works fine.

I've tried others as well (usually in relation to customer notebooks), the most recent being an odd unit from Radio Shack. No problems with any of those either, but some are a bit screwy when first installed. If you don't get a handshake with the external serial connected device, check your COM port settings in Windows Device Manager, the driver for the USB to Serial adapter (if applicable) and the application using the device. Just about every time the problem will be inconsistent settings between the application and the adapter. Most applications will default to COM1 or COM2, but many of these adapters may install on COM5. Baud rate has to be consistent. So does the data order (such as 8N1 or 7E2).

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-24-2006, 01:42 PM:

I also use the Keyspan adapter, and one of the good things about it is that it comes with a configuration tool which allows you to rempa ports very easily and quickly. It worked with every device I have tried, except for the QSC DCMs (crossover/monitor). Sam from QSC told me that the serial adapter for some older palmtops works, but I haven't tried it yet. When I needed it, I simply commandeered the older notebook of one of my office colleagues which still had the hardware serial port.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-24-2006, 03:10 PM:

The overpriced USB->serial/parallel adapter that IBM (err...Lenovo) sells for its laptops seems to work fine. At least it works with my T42 for talking to various pieces of network hardware. I'll have to try it with a CP500 this week and will post the results.

Personally, I think it's a travesty that few laptops are available with built-in serial ports, but I'm apparently in the minority on that issue. Dell Latitude and Precision laptops (at least the D610 and M70, which is what we are currently buying at work) do have standard serial ports, although the build quality of those machines is somewhat cheesy when compared with the IBMs.

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 01-24-2006, 06:20 PM:

Perhaps the travesty is that network hardware (switches, routers, etc) still don't have USB ports to replace the traditional RS-232 ports for their console ports, and that Dolby hasn't yet released a processor that has a USB port for configuration.

On the other hand, a nice thing about the RS-232 standard is that, well, it's a standard; there doesn't seem to be any clear standard to replace it with for the console ports on network hardware if you want to migrate to USB. On the gripping hand, the Dolby Digital decoders require the special Dolby software anyway, so migrating to USB might be a bit less of an inconvenience there...

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-24-2006, 06:33 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Personally, I think it's a travesty that few laptops are available with built-in serial ports, but I'm apparently in the minority on that issue. Dell Latitude and Precision laptops (at least the D610 and M70, which is what we are currently buying at work) do have standard serial ports, although the build quality of those machines is somewhat cheesy when compared with the IBMs.

Dell is phasing out serial ports on all their laptops. The Inspiron 600m was the last in that product line to feature a 9-pin serial port. Such ports are disappearing on Latitudes.

As to build quality, that's a point of debate. IBM (or rather Lenovo now) deserves points for building lightweight systems that are easy to take on the road. However, I simply had to choose a Dell Inspiron 6000d notebook because all other notebook manufacturers did not have the high resolution displays, fast 7200rpm hard discs and other power features boasted by the Dell Inspiron product line. Even Apple's notebook line fell short. I can get a lot of graphics work done very productively on my Dell notebook.

Alas, it does not have a serial port. Very few of Dell's new desktop computers have them either. Most even lack traditional printer ports. You just get a lot of USB connections and perhaps a few Firewire ports if you order the option.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-24-2006, 09:44 PM:

One of the problems of legacy devices is that most industrial aplications still use serial communication and many still use DOS aps to comunicate and set up and the replacement costs of some of that equipment far outways the concept of the latest greatest interface being the only route to go

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-25-2006, 12:20 AM:

That's what I'm using now is a Inspirion 6000 loaded 'loaded for bear' for multimedia (DVD dbl layer burner, love the graphics with the 15 inch monitor, et.al. just got rid of media center edition and installed XPPro 2 myself .. for less than 850 bucks..) and definitely missed the serial port from when I had a Micron XKE 266 notebook that I gave away due to the display was getting bad due to the TFT was separating and colorlines were popping up everywhere.

..and lighter too than the Micron.

-Monte

Posted by Trevor Bailey (Member # 75) on 01-25-2006, 09:16 AM:

I'm currently using the Dell 600m with no problems. On the issue of build quality, the 600m is produced by one of the same contract manufacturers that makes Thinkpads.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-25-2006, 06:28 PM:

Monte, $850 is pretty inexpensive for the Inspiron 6000 -although the prices for some options such as the dual layer DVD burner have really come down in price.

I paid just under $2000 for mine several months ago (price after a 30% discount). But that's with almost every top end option. I just upgraded the memory from 1GB to a maximum of 2GB of 533MHz DDR2 SDRAM. Notebooks are going to need to start supporting 4GB or more of memory with mainstream acceptance of 64-bit operating systems on the way.

As for RS-232 serial ports, they're a dying standard. The shift to 64-bit will kill off legacy support for a lot of those RS-232 connected devices.

We're constantly hounding our electronic message center providers about this because some are still building product using the RS-232 and RS-485 serial standards. Not only are they probably going to be broken by 64-bit operating systems, but they also have a bandwidth that is downright puny for today's data throughput needs (such as moving live video). USB 2.0, Firewire and various wired and wireless Ethernet standards have left those old serial standards in the dust.

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 01-29-2006, 03:21 PM:

I guess the other issue you run into is cable length issues, in applications where a five foot cable isn't going to suffice. USB just doesn't directly support the sort of cable lengths you can get with RS-232 and RS-485. (You can buy USB extenders that send the data over other signaling schemes, though.)

And ethernet on copper supports 100 meters but may still be somewhat more expensive; I haven't figured out what the cost of putting ethernet into an embedded device ends up being.

Microchip makes a microcontroller chip that costs around $6 or $7 that will act as a USB full speed (the 11mb or 12mb speed, not the high speed offered by USB 2.0) device, as well as otherwise having about as much compuational power as the average 8 bit Apple II computer. (They also make another part for around $3 that only does low speed USB, and there are some competitors with similar products.) It's hard for me to imagine how that wouldn't be cost effective for a new design of a niche market device that doesn't need long cables.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-29-2006, 04:11 PM:

What does RS-232 have to do with 64-bit systems? I've had 64-bit machines (Sun workstations) for years, and they all have had DB25 serial connectors and are perfectly happy to talk to any serial device.

Does anyone make USB-based terminal servers?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2006, 04:15 PM:

I am about to buy a new laptop, as I'm tired of flipping between screens of the CP650 program and the D2 program. (Why oh why must these programs not offer any sort of scaling???)

I was looking at the Dell Inspiron 9400...but now I am reminded about the RS232 issue. I need 2 USB ports for the D2. Recommendations?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-29-2006, 05:49 PM:

I've been known to come to the site with 2 or even 3 laptops to have all the displays going at one (one for the CP, one for the R2 and one for the DSP processor, if present)...this is one of choice rather than need...I don't mind lugging up the extra laptop case, or two to have the greater screen space...however, while in econo mode, I will do the screen swapping thing.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-29-2006, 06:02 PM:

My Laptop and the 9400 has and should have 4 USB ports - two on he side and two on the back.

Course, you could easily get a USB hub that goes into one port, and you'd have four more slots bringing a total of 7 ports....OR get four-four port hubs and really maximize your connectivity.

quote: Bobby Henderson
As for RS-232 serial ports, they're a dying standard. The shift to 64-bit will kill off legacy support for a lot of those RS-232 connected devices.

...in as well as the PCMCIA slot ...

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 01-31-2006, 08:41 PM:

Scott, what do you mean by a USB based terminal server?

It's occuring to me that I've also worked with a DEC Alpha that ran NetBSD; I think we actually had a dumb terminal plugged into its serial port for its console. I'm pretty sure that was a 64 bit machine.

The thing that's really killing RS232 is the assumption that people are moving to USB (and that they actually are to some extent). That, and the transition towards internal modems that must have happened 10 or 15 years ago or something, and the move from serial to ps/2 to USB for mice (though the mouse I've been using in the course of making this post is a serial mouse, just because there's nothing stopping me from using it and it's the best mouse I had lying around).

The 5-6 year old motherboards I'm using both came with two RS-232 ports, and the ATX board makes both ports externally visible by default. (The AT board requires you to install cables to the back of the case, because of limitations of the AT form factor.) It's looking likely that the next motherboard I buy will only have one RS-232 port built in at all, and that I will once again have to manually run a cable to the back of the machine.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-31-2006, 10:34 PM:

Keyspan makes a 4 port USB terminal server for about $100. You could also build your own for the same price using a Linksys WRT54-GS or similar access point.

I haven't tried the Keyspan TS out yet as no worthy devices have abandoned RS-[24]xx ports.

quote: Joel N. Weber II
It's looking likely that the next motherboard I buy will only have one RS-232 port built in at all, and that I will once again have to manually run a cable to the back of the machine.

Maybe someone else could run the cable for you.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-01-2006, 01:27 PM:

My Inspiron 6000 has four USB 2.0 ports. I haven't used any more than 2 at a time. The notebook also has a Firewire 400 port on the side as well. I'm going to buy a Lacie Firewire 800 port PC card for a new external hard drive I'm also going to buy at the same time.

quote: Scott Norwood
What does RS-232 have to do with 64-bit systems? I've had 64-bit machines (Sun workstations) for years, and they all have had DB25 serial connectors and are perfectly happy to talk to any serial device.

The ports themselves may work. The attached devices may not. It may not be much of an issue in UNIX, but most RS-232 and RS-485 attached Windows devices are older legacy devices with 16-bit device drivers.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-01-2006, 05:43 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
The ports themselves may work. The attached devices may not. It may not be much of an issue in UNIX, but most RS-232 and RS-485 attached Windows devices are older legacy devices with 16-bit device drivers.

True for cheap consumer devices and the not-so-good commercial vendors, but I've got dozen's of industrial hardware and drivers/applications for 32-bit systems and some for 64-bit systems.

It's not a technology problem, it's a cost issue. USB (which is serial after all) is cheap and barely reliable. It's not suited for anything more than consumer and light commercial applications. If you need a high speed solution for video boards or what not, RS-485 drivers that support 35mbps are available for about a $1.

If you really want to avoid serial devices, and don't need to run up to 1200 metres, there's always industrial ethernet (with STP cabling and hardened devices).