Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Bizarre projector mount

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-13-2006, 05:38 PM:

About to mount a Century head on this pedestal. There is a part missing, isn't there? [Wink]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-13-2006, 05:58 PM:

Brad,

That is the Simplex LL-1 (aka Heavy Duty) pedestal. I believe it uses the same knuckle as the LL-3 (the more commong one). They are available new from Wolk, last I checked. I think Wolk also has a universal knuckle now that can allow one to mount Simplex (Century) and RCA soundheads to the same knuckle.
All Simplex pedestals used a knuckle to adapt the pedestal to the type of bolt pattern the soundhead had (generally Simplex or RCA).

Steve

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 01-13-2006, 06:02 PM:

This is my LL-3, and the part you're missing.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-13-2006, 09:12 PM:

I have lot's of these. They usually come connected to used soundheads we buy. Brad: e-mail me. Louis

Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 01-14-2006, 01:02 PM:

Yes ; indeed there is a part missing but the immediate help you received is amazing

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-14-2006, 04:40 PM:

Heya Grand-Poopie-BAH, taking this tread off topic cuz at this point, I really don't care about your knuckle "problem"...

That LL-1 has a really nice paint job. Was it stripped and repainted locally in Los Angeles? Any idea who did it?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2006, 10:46 PM:

Yup, it was done by Earl Schreib in Burbank. Cost $287.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-15-2006, 12:46 AM:

Earl Schreib, or Earl Scheib? [Confused]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-15-2006, 04:38 PM:

quote: Grand-Poopie-BAH
...it was done by Earl Schreib in Burbank.

Cool! I'm gunna take my Hummer there and have it repainted gun metal black like Danny's LL-3! hhot!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-15-2006, 05:06 PM:

It woulda been alot less expensive to have it powder coated, ot would also be alot more permanent and scratch resistant. There are also alot of cool finishes for that process many of which are not available any other way.

Mark

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-15-2006, 05:45 PM:

Actually I've had tons of projection equip powder coated and while worth it, it is NOT cheaper than conventional spray-painted and baked methods.

It does however provide a superior physical finish performance ***IF*** applied correctly. ALSO, as with any finish, proper part preparation is vital to the success to the resultant finish longevity. There are a lot of Fly-By-Night vendors out there in the powder-painting (and in general painting) business.

I really get nervous at the projector head rebuilders that advertise saying they repaint the heads during a rebuild. I wonder if at the 1st sign of oil or cleaning (with solvent) that their painted finish will flake and peel?

I do agree that (for me) powder coated finishes are the preferred finish for most all film equip, but it's not for my Hummer.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-15-2006, 07:48 PM:

Powder finish is really the way to go. However, I find that prep must be immaculate. We bead blast, clean ultrasonically and then bake until no more oil appears. Then ultrasonic again and then bake again until completely free of oil. Only then will the finish be what you want it to be. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-15-2006, 08:55 PM:

quote: Phil Hill
but it's not for my Hummer.

Thats for sure... they'd never be able to get it heated evenly enough for the powder to fuse consistantly. In fact the base castings would be a problem for alot of paint shops to heat properly. We have yet to find a shop that is willing to do a DP-70 casting....... and there are many high tech powder shops in this area because of Hill AFB. We have a local Powder Coater that does all of our work. He's reasonable and does an immaculate job. I am considering doing that Loc-Tite Impregnation porosity sealer treatment to oil bath machines I do in the future... that will make them leak proof for sure..... at least till a gasket allows a drip to start..... This process may preclude doing a powder coat but I feel this process may be more meaningful to projector cleanliness than powder coating is in and of itself.

Mark

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-15-2006, 10:21 PM:

quote: Phil Hill
but it's not for my Hummer.

hehe, always talking about sex!

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-16-2006, 01:30 AM:

Louis, I totally agree... it's important to pre-heat the parts at a high temperature before coating to expel any oils or other impurities, and then to solvent-clean them again.

Mark, that Loc-Tite process looks interesting...

Rick, Yeah? So? Other than film, isn't sex what all us guys live for? I do! (J/K) [Razz]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-16-2006, 09:09 AM:

quote: Phil Hill
Mark, that Loc-Tite process looks interesting...

Phil,
Every Harley Davidson engine and transmission casting gets the Loc-Tite treatment! Theats why they don't leak any more.

Mark

Posted by Tim Hull (Member # 2875) on 01-16-2006, 03:15 PM:

Hey Phil,

Do you know a good powder coating company in or near the San Fernando valley? I'm located in Chatsworth and need black powder coat for these bases:

http://www.timhull.com/supersimplex/super_project_web/index.html

Also, do you know if it is possible to get the wrinkle paint applied after the powder coat?

Thanks!

Tim Hull

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-16-2006, 05:49 PM:

Wrinkle, high gloss, hammer-tone, etc. is specified when the paint is ordered, just like the color. Not every color is available in every finish. Generally only one coat. Really it is fogged on and then "melted" in an oven. In concept, it is just like old style kitchen sink except instead of a "glass" finish it is a form of a plastic finish. Louis

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-16-2006, 06:08 PM:

Tim, there is a really good place close to you. Dunno know if they are competitive in their pricing, but their work is immaculate!

Powder Coater Link

Posted by Tim Hull (Member # 2875) on 01-16-2006, 06:45 PM:

Hey Louis

Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to stay away from the wrinkle finish and just use black high gloss powder coat.

Phil - Thanks for the link. I have already gone over and met with these people. Their samples look really good, but I don't know much about powder coating so I just wasn't sure. Your recommendation makes me feel good about using them. Thanks! (hey, if i mention your name, will I get a discount?...jk)

Tim

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-16-2006, 07:06 PM:

Nah!! I don't think they know Phil, but if they did, they'd probably charge extra! Louis

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-16-2006, 07:12 PM:

Ya beat me to it, Louis! I was just going to say the same thing. [Razz]

Also, I agree about the "nostalgic" wrinkle finish... it only collects dust and dirt and is a PITA to clean.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-16-2006, 07:55 PM:

Be sure they bring those large cast pieces up to temperature slooowwwly or else thay may crack from being subjected to 400 degrees to quickly. A good way is for them to be in the oven at the beginning of the day when its brought on line. Either way castings that large, thick and heavy will have to be pre-heated before they can be powdered or the powder will not fuse evenly.

I like the finish on the SPECO arms and had my Super-LumEx end castings done in that finish..... I think its called "silver river" er something like that.

Mark

Posted by Tim Hull (Member # 2875) on 01-16-2006, 09:32 PM:

Mark - Thanks a lot! That's the kind of information that is really going to help me out. I want these bases to be perfect.

I'm getting ready to disassemble the lamphouse as well for chrome plating and black powder coat. I am little concerned about the tolerances on some parts and the thickness of the powder coat. Have you run into any problems with this?

I have seen them run into problems with this on American Chopper on the Discovery channel!

Thanks!

Tim

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-16-2006, 10:32 PM:

quote: Tim Hull
I am little concerned about the tolerances on some parts and the thickness of the powder coat. Have you run into any problems with this?

Absolutely have had excess powder paint problems, everyone has that problem to some extent. For holes a set of adjustable reamers is very handy for removing excess powder paint...... ya just got to be careful and pay alot of attention to detail. I forgot to mention that the only way to remove excess powder paint after its been fused is to machine it off! So be VERY careful at your masking job and be sure that it is perfect. The plater should be able to plug any holes for you before it hits the dip. What I do with the powder guy here is let the painter mask and plug and then I go double check his work before the powder hits it. Also keep in mind that no matter how good the sprayer says he is he can never get it perfect...... Manual spray powder lines like you will be using suffer from this while automatic lines suffer from it alot less, they also generally recover the excess powder that doesn't make it onto the product and then re-cycle it.

Another tihng you will have trouble with is stripping the old paint off, some of that stuff, the 1040 in particuluar may have been Japanned black, some Western Electric equipment definately was and it was a common process back then. BEWARE THAT all of that old paint you will remove DOES CONTAIN LEAD! TAKE PROPER PRECAUTIONS! In Salt Lake City use a local paint removal place called The Stripper. We get XL and other castings back from them looking like brand new... and these guys do it all by hand! I have also used the Redi-Strip dunk strip method alot of times. Its expensive for something like you're doing but very affordable on large runs of castings like I did back in the Midwest... I used to take Simplex's and Century's there by the truckload! Its a smelly process and the castings stink for a while afterwords, you can smell the plant from a half mile away! I had my own paint system and booth back there but would never go that route again... it not worth it out here, the cost to paint stuff is oh so reasonable. Back there I used a Zinc Chromate primer followed by a bake on Grey Hammertone that I got from a local Chicago paint manufacturer (Durable Specialty Coatings) in 10 gallon drums. I think over the years that I used that booth and spray system it certainly paid for itself but the exposure to paint fumes and other related chemicals was not good for me in spite of the massive exhaust system on the paint booth. Customers that are still running those machines report that the paint has held up very well over the years.

P.S. I forgot to mention that parts can also warp in the heat during curing/fusing. DAYOR!

FYI:
Durable Specialty Coatings
1925 W. Hubbard Street
Chicago , IL 60622

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-17-2006, 09:17 AM:

Mark; we do our own bead blasting with plastic beads and then have our own oven and power coat application booth. All is "in house." Powder coat is so tame that the dominant smell is that of a hot oven.

Remember that masking must be done with high-temperature tape (Kapton, I think) Also, if you "bondo" any holes, then special hi-temp, metallic material must be used or the paint will not attract in the electro-static paint booth.

Generally, we tape machined surfaces and re-tap holes. Some certain runs of Centurys are actually better with a little bit of powder coat in the tapped holes!! Louis

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 01-17-2006, 12:51 PM:

Modern plastic powder coat and chrome plating on an early piece of machinery?? Ewwwwwwww. Tacky. That's not 'restoration', in my opinion. [puke]

Better to paint (if you absolutely have to) that which was Japanned and nickle plate that which was nickle plated originally.

Ron Yost

Posted by Tim Hull (Member # 2875) on 01-17-2006, 01:55 PM:

Thanks again for the info everyone!

Ron - yeah, I guess I'm really taking the hotrod route with these. Personally, I think you really can't go wrong with high gloss black and chrome. IMHO.

Don't worry tho... I won't be putting flames on the side of the lamphouse!

Tim

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 01-18-2006, 04:31 AM:

Powder coat is a good-looking, tough finish, but there are reports from the auto enthusiast/restoration world that it splits into thin fissures over time, moisture gets in, & the material oxidizes unseen under the coat until it crumbles away.

Sheet metal as you'd suspect is the worst: the first reports were from folks who thought that powder coating would be the grand final answer for painting floorboards (which are prone to dings & rust).

It's like the problem was with undercoating, only made worse, since undercoating is more flexible. It came around again to the best solution for undercarriage & body is plain coach paint, sanding & repainting scratches (& the whole thing again when needed).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-18-2006, 07:42 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Mark; we do our own bead blasting with plastic beads and then have our own oven and power coat application booth. All is "in house."

Even though we do a fairly high volume I would still never get back into it and do it myself again. The price for powder coating an entire X-L or Century machine is far less expensive out here than it was back in the Midwest days. Our DP-70's are enamled as they are too large to heat evenly for powder application so I deal with a variety of paint people. Also one thing I really dislike about blasting anything is that it spreads lead into the atmosphere. No matter how good your dust removal blower company's spec's are its still going to let lead escape..... and thats a very dangerous problem. Even the area in and around the blast cabinet is lead comtaminated! (No, I'm not an environmentalist, I'm just cautious!) Also.... Pray you don't ever get a visit from the EPA! They are very strict with paint booths and related equipment of all types, some operations have to be liscensed by them, more so today than 15 years ago. But the lead problem is the main reason that I prefer to just have them done by hand the old fashioned way. That confines the lead and confines it to the person doing the paint removal operation. If that person is smart he will wear proper protective gear. At least at the "Stripper" the paint is disposed of in an approved manner as hazadarous waste. Mine system was kept "secret" at the advice of an engineer friend at GM that deals with the EPA for them on that sort of thing....... hopefully yours is too!

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-18-2006, 08:18 AM:

Ours is an "approved" system, complete with centrifuge. The old flakes and dust are emptied into "cans" So far, we have not accumulated enough to have to dispose of them. We purchased a complete, approved system from the manufacturer in Cincinnati. Big bucks. Louis

Posted by Marc Hansen (Member # 705) on 01-18-2006, 10:38 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
So far, we have not accumulated enough to have to dispose of them.

Louis,
You need to check into that, there is also a time limit on accumulation. Out here in Washington it is 180 days.

Marc

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-18-2006, 07:10 PM:

Louis,

Really..... the best thing to do is keep it all secret!! Even disposing of the flakes in a proper method might lead the EPA to come looking for the source due to paper work you'd have to fill out and sign. Thats not a thing you want to have happen... ever!

BTW: Its approved by who? The manufacturer,Tha painters union, NASA, Pratt and Lambert? Lead can be a very mysterious element to contain. I can just about guarantee you its present in your place of buisness in trace quantities!! Careful as one can be and as good as equipment is the danger of contamination and trace particles will always be there.

Mark

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 01-18-2006, 07:41 PM:

OK

Here is some info about powder coating.

Phil thinks that powder coating is more expensive than conventional paint. Answer: yes and no. If you have your equipment powder coated something like a conventional black or industrial grey, there might be the possibility that the powder coater can gang your job with other similar jobs thereby drastically reducing your cost.

Different powder coaters might also have different takes regarding castings. I have known some powder coaters that prefer not to coat older cast iron pieces, as lubricants and impurities can solution out thereby compromising the ability of the coating to adhere. These shops might recommend an epoxy type coating.

Also remember that powder coated parts are baked in an oven. You should be familiar with the type of part you are coating, so as not to upset dimensional tolorances or change metallurgical properties.

Powder coatings might also have different heat range applications. On one occasion I had a new water pump powder coated Ford Engine Blue on a Ford "289" restoration project. The powder coating shop failed to tell me that the coating was for low temp applications only, and as soon as the engine heated up, the coating blistered off! The shop did apologize and righted the wrong, but it was still an inconvient pain in the ass having to disassemble the engine for a second time!

Powder coatings can also come in a variety of finishes, including wrinkle as used on Simplex and Century projectors.

You should also be aware of what chemicals you regurally use to clean a powder coated surface: the incorrect type cleaner might stain a coated surface.

One powder coater also told me that like white paint, white powder coating will yellow over time when exposed to oils and heat on a regular basis.

Quality of powder coating can also vary from shop to shop. Like paint, if carelessly applied runs, dust, orange-peel, etc can occur.

Finally, anyone that utilizes Earl "BONDO" Scham should be "SHOT AT DAWN"! [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 01-18-2006, 08:10 PM:

I believe the paint shops proper name is Earl Scheib

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 01-18-2006, 08:16 PM:

No Mark...

Its Earl Scam: home of the $99.00 Bondo, orange peel, runs and overspray special! [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-18-2006, 09:12 PM:

I agree Will,

I coulda had that painted by our Painter for about half that including sand blasting the old paint away and applyimg a filler type primer before the paint itself.

Mark

Posted by Tim Hull (Member # 2875) on 01-19-2006, 10:06 PM:

Will - thanks for the info. It will really help when I go to the powder coating shop next week. I am a bit nervous about the baking process.

I will post some pics of the bases when they are finished.

Tim