Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Neumade Rewind Bench Spindels

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Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 02-06-2006, 02:09 PM:

I was wanting to know if anyone knows if all the Neumade 2K Spindels fit all rewind tables? we have three 2K rewind spindals, but none of them grip the reels or the trailer flange, and as a result, the trailer flange is breaking. Before I look into getting a new flange, I want to look into either getting some new or replacement spindels. This is a picture of our rewind bench. It's fairly old so I don't know how many of you have seen this model before. If you need a better pics let me know and i'll see if I can get some. This is a pic from when Brad visited.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 02-06-2006, 03:48 PM:

What do you mean "2k spindles"???? This table can take 6000' reels, like most other tables.

It's a Neumade PRT ULTRA. JUNK! [puke]

I've had 2 break on me in the past year. One spindle broke off mid-wind on the motor end, sending a nearly full reel flying and leaving a huge gash in the linoleum floor. The one pictured below gave out as I was placing a reel on it for rewind; fortunately I felt it give way so the reel didn't fall onto the ground.

I'm sure everyone here knows about their drive keys love to snap off also.

btw, new shafts will cost you about $100 a pop. If you buy used, you run a bigger risk of the below happening... [Eek!]

[ 02-17-2006, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Dan Lyons ]

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 02-06-2006, 05:35 PM:

quote: Dan Lyons
What do you mean "2k spindles"???? This table can take 6000' reels, like most other tables.

I'm refering to a spindle that will rotate a 2000' reel for trailer breakdown/build up and the occasional print breakdown form 6000' reels.

It's not the problem of making the reels on to the 6000' reels, rather it's the problem of not having the ability to break down trailers from reels to a core properly, of break a movie down from 6000' reels when we are low on rings and platters to place out going prints. We have a 2000' reel spindle with a pin on it to rotate the reel, but it's not in the right position, and it fixed to the spindele. It isn't adjustable.

Honestly, I think that the rewind bench is a peice of [bs]

, but being 2nd run, buying a brand new rewind bench would not be something that the company would do. From use of building and breaking down trailers with out a proper spindle, we need to replace the trailer flange, but I don't want to replace it until I get a spindle that will properly rotate the flange.

Posted by Sean R. Custer (Member # 3531) on 02-06-2006, 09:08 PM:

The reel shafts and spindles are identical, or with negligable differences from decades ago to the present day... newer ones are adustable, and will fit the bench but not the MUT too (for 35mm anyway.) I've had that small tab break off before also, and the replacement is the shaft and tab whole. But the factory wedges a piece of metal in the hole that looks like it's a set screw, and you won't be able to replace it w/o a drill and a new metal wedge, and by smacking it in tight. We didn't have the time to do it that way or the means to do it better, so we ended up bying a new spindle complete, for $$$.
If you have the resources, drill it the hole larger, tap the hole and make your own set screw. Buy lots of shafts.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-06-2006, 11:38 PM:

He's talking about 5/16" spindles along with the 1/2" spindles for this Neumade table. It's not the best table, but take care of this certain table, it will do the task needed.

This are how you order the spindles is by the shaft diameter size and style - be it with the side "dog pin", or with key.

There should be some info here on this table.

5k (22inch) and 6k (24inch) reels are available for either size of spindle - slip hub or solid hub.

Dumb question Dan: how are you busting spindles off of the main boss, especially busting two of them in a year? Never seen anyone do this, nor I have never had any problems with with these PRT Neumade spindles-just knew how to operate the system correctly.

One can order the keys separately to reinstall in the holes on the shaft. Also, the shafts themselves are on separate order as well.

Trick is to take a drill with a 1/4" bit and slightly drill into the opposite end of the shaft to make a tapered opening. Then, take the key and use a bench vise and press the key back into the hole on the shaft (if the hole has been wobbled out, then take the key and lightly hammer the pin part to make the pin part larger than the wobbled out hole). Then flare the pin part of the key with a punch and ball-pein hammer so the key doesn't come back out, then file the remaining metal of the hammered key pin to flush with the shaft. One can also fill in the remaining hole with epoxy to really secure the key.

Unfortunately, the keys are made from die cut sheet metal-not forged by any means. But being made of soft wire steel, it's easy to work with. Too bad Neumade didn't use forged steel key ways and collars that they used on their hand crank benchtop models.

-Monte

[ 02-07-2006, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-07-2006, 06:36 AM:

The key breaking is a problem on all 5/16 spindles and one shuld actually use the drive dog version fo all but flange reel rewinding
Usually if the shaft breaks it is beacuse the load was put on it at an angle when pulling on or off the reel
Also if the main shaft breaks it is because one has overtightened the lock bolt with pliers
They are not the best out there but do give years of service

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 02-07-2006, 01:46 PM:

I don't want to start a fued.. but the old TT rewind when taken care of will operate very well for many many years! The cases of shaft breakage I have seen through the years are generally a result of 'rough housing' the reels on and off the shafts or use with badly bent reels or ones with extremely worn out centers. I personally still have the TT I bought new in 1969 and it was used daily in a single screen theatre for make up and rewinding 6000 ft reels for over 20 years of that time! I have never broken a shaft yet! My wife used it for another 8 years after we moved to Idaho in our twin screen and it was used to inspect and make up and tear down all of our films & trailers! The only thing I have had to do was replace brushes and finally the commutator and the driving end main shaft, it still runs very well and quiet!! The old saying goes..'If you take care of your equipment..it will take care of you'I always used 5/16 shaft 6k reels and used the adjustable drive dog type spindle on both ends of the rewind, then for trailers I use a 5/16" key drive with split reels or flanges and everything works fine. The main thing with any rewinder is to start the wind slowly then build up speed! The pitfall to the TT is the Dayton speed control as it has a variable or direct high speed switch and if you leave the sw on direct, and reset the film run out switch it will take off at full speed and usually something will give! Especially the 5/16 shafts with a key!! It just takes a little finesse to operate it well. Even the Kelmar rewind will break keys if not used properly!!

[ 02-07-2006, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: John Eickhof ]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-07-2006, 02:03 PM:

Ummmm, I know Danny and if I had to choose one person to let handle my films or equipment on this site, it would be him hands down. I think most people seriously underestimate his care and attention to not only films, but the equipment. He most certainly did NOT abuse those shafts. The tables he is working with ARE however very old and could've been through many years of abuse.

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 02-07-2006, 02:17 PM:

Hi Brad..like I said..my reply was not to start a fued but to share the experience I have had using and servicing this type rewind over the last 30 years or so..it is most common that the reel cores get worn out and the banging of an off balance reel will tear up most any rewind spindle..it is a shame that some theatre owners will not replace worn parts on the reels or the rewinds and coupled with the pitfalls of different rewinders the combination of poor reels and rough handling even by accident will result in failure. That rewind could and probably is older than it's current operator so we have no way of knowing it's entire life so I must present the ideas that I can..not intended to ruffle any feathers or question anyone's expertise!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-07-2006, 03:25 PM:

..course, the big design flaw with those assemblies is that most of the actual metal has been drilled away for the spring pin that secures the shaft in the boss member leaving very little of the actual metal itself to support any sort of weight and RPM speed - big time weak spot there by itself.

Another thing with the table itself, is that I took off that dumb wire shutdown switch on the right end of the table and bypassed the switch on the Dayton so the variac control was the only one used and disconnected the hi- speed side .

I learned that one the hard way when I flipped up the wire switch, power was on and the switch was in hi-speed mode. A full 6k reel on the motored spindle without the clip on, motor took off, spun off that reel off the shaft, reel hit the floor, gouged the floor and that reel ran down the booth, hitting the far wall bending the flanges pretty bad, alone putting gouges in the cinder block wall . Luckilly, I was actually to the side of the table and behind when this happened. Otherwise, I would have been hit by that spinning reel.

True, not meaning to pick on Dan and I'm sorry if I came across that way (why I said "dumb question") as well - since I knew that he didn't purposely misused a device, but it just struck me on the odd side of why two units were broken in the one year duration.

Plus, as long as John and I have known these units for gobs of years and where Dan probably hasn't been around the booth as the two of us have been, we just know how to treat these tables and how to work with them from the beginning.

Granted also, Dan hasn't been given the opportunity to have a new Neumade table delivered to him as with John and I have been, thus Dan, more or less, has been stuck with equipment and parts that was worn down in the first place.

Thus, with his breakage and first impression, he didn't like the construction procedure of these Neumade units compared to the construction of the Kelmar units.

When I worked for MANN theatres in the 80's, they grabbed the most cheapest stuff out there for their booths..and the Neumade was tons cheaper than the Kelmar.

-Monte

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 02-07-2006, 03:32 PM:

FWIW: On some rewinds a hard cut nail can be used to replace a broken spindle key until you can get a new one. Simply cut off the head of the nail and it will slip into the groove and under the collar.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-07-2006, 03:40 PM:

..lol...how many of us have done that trick with the old Neumade hand crank models - take a nail, bend,hammer and cut it in a tight 90 degree fashion to where the collar can slip over that nail to secure that nail on the shaft.

-Monte

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 02-07-2006, 03:44 PM:

Rick and Monte..I can remember replacing the keys on the old Simplex lower magazines too!! A good quality (back then) 6 penny finishing nail was just right! I still have a bunch of them in my work bench drawer!! Usually they were used to replace the broken keys in the Kelmar reel arms in the later years after I went to 6k reels!

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 02-07-2006, 04:37 PM:

LOL too: It was all about keeping the show on the screen. It kind of differentiated the "projectionists" from the "operators".

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 02-07-2006, 05:34 PM:

Hey Monte..where did you work for Mann? Did you ever meet Ottley Musselwhite? Or the guy that invented the taser? (I can't remember his name but he was a very tall big man and worked for a while with Chris Condon..he was a higher up in Manns tech dept) and had the northen California run..

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-07-2006, 11:31 PM:

Hi John - I worked with MANN from 1976 til they pulled out of Idaho in 1988 when EXCELLENCE Theatres (aka TOI-part 2 in sheep's clothing..lol) took over the Idaho market (Carmike took over the Utah market 2 yrs later when Mann pulled out of that state..) and things went downhill with that bozo Chicago company (thx to good ol Alan Silverman sinking his father's ESSENESS circuit down the toilet..) and Carmike took over EXCELLENCE and worked with Carmike for a brief spell - only to leave for a new up and coming company .... and not EDWARDS..(lol).. in 1991. (you can ask Mark the name of that company...)

Came to the Boise area to work in 1984 at the 4-plex on 5-mile and was learning with Vic 5s, Xetron 35 consoles, LP-270's. I came over when the Paramount in Idaho Falls was starting to go downhill and MANN was giving hints of pulling out of that palace (where I began with Mann in 1976 as chief projectionist..remember Burt Garner - I took over his position cuz he had enough..and I also sorta slid in the IA in the meantime..) and I was given the opportunity to transferr to Boise to take over chief booth operations at the 4-plex.

Yes, I remember the names of Musselwhite and Condon, but never met them since I had Brent Walker doing the tech stuff for this region...and duly miss him since his passing in 1993. He taught me quite a bit of what I need to know coming into an automated area.

thx-monte

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 02-08-2006, 11:03 AM:

Thanks Monte..since I arrived in Idaho in 1990 I had heard your name at the IA meetings in Boise but still never have met you yet! I worked as emergency service for Mann in N. Cal in the early 1980s and also relief operator at the Birdcage 6 in sacto area. I remember the steward of the booth at Birdcage was blind in one eye so anytime they set up for 3-D the 2nd Man, Guy Eriksen and I would have to go set it up for him! imagine never being able to see anything in 3-D! One of these days i've got to get over to Boise and visit with old friends in the biz and finally get over and meet you too!

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 02-08-2006, 01:01 PM:

Thomas:

The table you have is a PRT Ultra. The replacement spindle assembly is part number A1598B (upper part shown in the photo.) The list price is $76.50, meaning you can probably buy it for less. If you don't mind a little work, (driving out the spring pin, then pushing the broken shaft out) you can repair the assembly by purchasing just the shaft (it comes with the key attached.) The part number for the shaft only is A1597A, and costs $25.00.

The very early PRT Ultras did not have removable spindles. It looks like your does, but I mention it just in case.

I would agree with everything Gordon and John noted, ie: They are not my favorite table either, but they do work. Those keys break, regardless of the manufacturer. I have found the reason the entire spindle breaks is because the spindle hole in the reel is worn. This allows the reel to wobble during winding which bends the spindle back and forth slightly, but continuously. Eventually, the spindle fatigues and breaks.

Dan, you are a long-time respected contributor here at F-T, and your opinion is important. No manufacturer wants negative comments about it's products. However, no manufacturing process is perfect and those spindles may have been made wrong. Neumade would like the chance to put things right. Also, we feel it is important to note that the spindles are not pot metal.

So, I have a offer for you. If you ship to Neumade those two broken spindle assemblies you have, we will fix one of them for free, and will return both. We would like to see why those spindles broke, to see if we can make them better. We ask two things in return; that you pay for shipping both ways, and acknowledge the spindles are not made of pot metal.

Thank you.

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 02-08-2006, 01:25 PM:

quote: John Walsh
The list price is $76.50, meaning you can probably buy it for less.

Someone found them for me for 64.50. I thank everyone for your input. I have also ordered a new trailer flange as I don't want to chance this one falling apart and causing any damage to anything. Everyone has been very helpful, and I thank you.

--Tom

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 04-29-2008, 09:13 PM:

It has been 811 days since the last post.

Posted by Don Furr (Member # 1469) on 04-29-2008, 09:13 PM:

Bringing this thread back from the dead, I can't keep the keys in the 5/16th shaft no matter how gentle I operate. Does anyone have a "new" cure or know of a shaft pin that won't break? Also where can I purchase the pins?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-30-2008, 03:58 PM:

Don; If it's a Neumade table, the design is different between a PRT or a PRT Ultra. I've sent Brad a pdf file showing the differences, how they are assemblied, and a part number listing. I'm sure he will post it as soon as he can.

Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 04-30-2008, 11:07 PM:

I press them into the shafts in a vise to keep them from falling out. They don't seem to last when people use 6K reels on them, since people can't be bothered to change to the pin drive spindles.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-01-2008, 12:14 PM:

Are you just pressing them by themselves?
If there is any wear on the shaft, you should probably be using an adhesive like LocTite 660 ("Quick Metal" gap filler), and quite possibly shimming the key as well.

From LocTite's "Do It Right" Users Guide (pdf):

--jhawk

Edit: added PDF URL.

[ 05-01-2008, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: John Hawkinson ]