Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 'Lawrence of Arabia' in 70mm @ The Heights

This is topic 'Lawrence of Arabia' in 70mm @ The Heights - 3/17 and film jam a the Ziegfeld in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 02-21-2006, 01:02 PM:

The Heights Theatre, Minneapolis, MN will be running a DTS 70mm print of 'Lawrence of Arabia' for one week, starting March 17. And while it's rare enough to see 70mm engagements around Minneapolis, its even more rare to hear DTS at the Heights.

Info Here

I'll be up there for the Saturday or Sunday matinee, too bad opening night is St. Patrick's Day [beer]

[ 03-28-2006, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Dan Lyons ]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 02-21-2006, 01:47 PM:

The Ziegfeld Theatre in NYC is slated to play "Lawrence of Arabia" in 70MM, March 24-30. [thumbsup]

Sorry no print sound format info available at this time.

Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 02-22-2006, 01:35 AM:

I saw this in 70MM DTS a couple of years ago at the Senator Theatre in Baltimore with a brand new print on a sound system maintained by Steve Guttag. I was not impressed with the sound mix at all.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 03-23-2006, 10:51 AM:

I attended the 7pm show last night, and I'm in agreement with regards to the sound mix. It could pass with a 35mm print, but so many scenes could've benefitted from extra screen channels. Those Sensurround subs sure sounded good though! This show was plattered, split between the intermission, as TJ wasn't around that night. Not that Tom couldn't have ran changeovers, but they are doing a week's worth of shows. The print has obviously been around with only a vertical scratch visible during the brightest desert-scapes & some head/tail dirt in the second act. No JJ scratches, though! [thumbsup]

This print was really beautiful though. A perfect window to the desert. I can't imagine how the shot of Lawrence emerging from the Sun's Anvil could have been viewed on any other format. He literally starts as a speck on the horizon, faintly visible in 70mm. I was floored [Smile]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-23-2006, 12:09 PM:

The Ziegfeld Theatre starts their 70MM engagement on Friday. It will be a DTS soundtrack version.

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 03-23-2006, 03:13 PM:

I went to the Picturehouse Cinema at Greenwich in London last Saturday to see "Lawrence of Arabia" in 70mm (Mag Sound), it was a one off and sadly a poor turn out.

I would be interested to hear what sort of responce in admission from the Public in numbers at the Ziegfeld.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-23-2006, 04:18 PM:

I hope The Heights got a good turnout for Larry. I had the honour of visiting this theatre in November 2004 during the AMIA conference at Minneapolis. It's everything anyone could wish for of a neighbourhood cinema - a lovingly restored and maintained building with a long historical background, and at the same time wonderful technical presentation, diverse programming and a strong local following. I hope to get the chance to visit again someday.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 03-23-2006, 04:39 PM:

I'm sure their weekend shows were well attended. Last night's Wednesday performance (the eighth of nine screenings) had a small crowd, enough to fill up some of the middle rows. Some folks seemed to be there for the nostalgia of the film, but just as with Oklahoma! in Todd-AO, there will always be a good collective of 70mm enthusiasts around Minneapolis that get out. If you click on the 'equipment' tab on their sight, Rich Landry has written a new synopsis of the Heights' booth & its importance to not only their immediate community, but Minneapolis/St. Paul cinema in great detail. Most rep houses in town are known to glaze over details of their presentation & focus more on their available content, but Tom's whole crew has done well to respect & hold onto their patrons.

I always feel sorry for the suburbanities I live around who claim to have never even heard of the Heights. It's like they've never seen in color before.

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 03-24-2006, 02:17 PM:

Leo,

You're welcome back in Minneapolis any time!

Bill Carter

Leo at the console of the Heights Theater's Mighty Wurlitzer

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-24-2006, 06:37 PM:

I made and posted this image a couple years ago. Seemed like a good time to repost it.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 03-24-2006, 07:33 PM:

quote: Steve Scott
I attended the 7pm show last night, and I'm in agreement with regards to the sound mix. It could pass with a 35mm print, but so many scenes could've benefitted from extra screen channels

I think the great thing about the Inner Left and Inner Right is the ability to avoid having effects in the Centre channel to keep same purely for dialogue. It makes a huge difference. I recall watching "Godzilla" some years back in 5.1 and then in 7.1 (SDDS) and the clarity of the latter was fantastic.

(Great picture BTW Bobby!)

Posted by John McConnel (Member # 2000) on 03-24-2006, 08:41 PM:

Here's a second, Bobby, for the great picture!

John Mc.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-24-2006, 08:56 PM:

I've ran it in just about all its formats. The DTS track is no better than the mag tracks... L.O.A. always had an awful track no mattter how you hear it. The imagery of the film far offsets the bad tracks though.... HAve fun running it [thumbsup]

.

Mark

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-24-2006, 10:09 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
L.O.A. always had an awful track no mattter how you hear it.

Finally someone says what I've always thought! [uhoh]

I've never understood the worship of some of those old movie soundtracks. Maybe they were good for their day, but modern film sound recording and playback technology is lightyears ahead.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 03-25-2006, 12:00 AM:

quote: Steve Scott
It could pass with a 35mm print, but so many scenes could've benefitted from extra screen channels.

Keep in mind that LOA was originally mixed with only three stage channels. The LC and RC channels of the original 6-track prints were created when sounding the mag prints, combining the L and C and the R and C (and reducing the volume of the new channels in the process).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-25-2006, 08:59 AM:

There has always been something wierd about the LOA tracks.... even the old mono 35mm prints sound awful... the film never had any low end response and sounded like it had an EQ curve that was from another planet. I don't know if early solid state equipment is to blame but the original tracks are surely to blame. If the originals were good the restored version would also sound good.

Dave S.,
As for other older films all one need hear is the 70mm mag tracks to West Side Story, Patton, Sound Of Music, Mad Mad World, any 3-strip Cinerama track, or even an old 30fps print of Oklahoma to re-affirm that these old tracks can be magnificent and give todays tracks a run for their money. The thing missing from the old tracks is the annoyingly used sub bass channel in todays formats and film mixes... thank god!

Mark

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 03-27-2006, 06:42 PM:

quote: Paul Linfesty
Keep in mind that LOA was originally mixed with only three stage channels.

Hey, Paul. -Where does this come from ?? Why so, in the crowned days of 70mm ?

BTW: For reissue, Denmark only experienced the first generation 70mm mag dolby sr of LOA. Sound quality was beautiful, but mix was already ruined by then (early nineties, I believe) - putting every bit of dialoque into the center channel, instead of useing all channels, as I remeber it from the original 1962-prints. And yet, Mr Spielberg claimed, LOA has never sounded better. -Against better knowledge, I'm afraid.

Per /Still living on the memories

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 03-27-2006, 09:19 PM:

Per,

I've read this from a number of sources, including a reproduction of the post schedule in the book Lawrence of Arabia by L. Robert Morris and Lawrence Raskin.

I think full 6-track dubbing equipment hadn't been introduced yet to GB, so this method was employed (tricking the 3 stages up to 5 when sounding the 70mm prints). Lord Jim used the same technique.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 03-27-2006, 11:03 PM:

quote: Bill Gabel
The Ziegfeld Theatre starts their 70MM engagement on Friday. It will be a DTS soundtrack version.

Anyone know how many DTS 70mm prints of LOA were made? It seems another disaster has happened during one of those shows.
From Cinema Treasures , near bottom of page.

"A GREAT SUNDAY NIGHT AT THE ZIEGFELD - My parter and I attended the 7:30 screening of Lawrence of Arabia on March 25. Everything was great; sound and presentation, spectacular. Shortly after the beginning of Act II, the film broke and burned. Five minutes later, the manager (sadly, I don't know her name) came out to inform us that Marvin could not fix the problem and offered us passes to return at a later date. That was good customer service.

Suddenly, a gentleman sitting two seats away from us stood up and announced, "I can help fix it." With the audience cheering, he and a few other projectionists in attendance went up to the booth and fixed the problem. Ten minutes later, to more cheers, the movie resumed. The gentleman sitting next to us returned to his seat with the piece of film that broke. To top is all off, we were still given passes to come back. That was EXCELLENT customer service."

What the hell??? Broke??? Are the new prints on polyester stock? Someone is claiming the "print was old and full of splices". When were the DTS prints struck? I wouldn't call anything in 70mm DTS "old". A faded red mag print could be called old...

[puke]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-27-2006, 11:53 PM:

Since the DTS 70mm prints were struck for the 40th Anniversary release, that would date them at 2002.

My guess to the cause of the problem was a brain wrap (assuming the show was run from a platter). Polyester film doesn't "snap" easily, just jamming up instead, trying to torque shit over in the booth until the film finally melts in the lamphouse to relieve the tension.

I could be wrong though.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-28-2006, 08:03 AM:

With a film jam, polyester film can "break" in several ways:

1. The sprocket teeth can rip through the perfs

2. A tear started at the edge or at a perforation can propagate through the film

3. The film can stretch

If you try to "break" a polyester print with your bare hands, it likely will not tear or break. A length of 35mm polyester print has enough tensile strength to tow an automobile. Yet, if you start a cut from the edge with scissors, you will find the film tears by hand quite easily.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 03-28-2006, 11:47 AM:

The only splices in the Heights' print were between reels. There was no visible film damage, save what looked like negative damage.

How sad to hear.

Posted by Robert Harris (Member # 1712) on 03-29-2006, 03:22 AM:

The audio on Lawrence was mixed as three track stereo, with a single effects track at the rear, used a handful of times throughout the film.

In 1988 more balanced tracks were created for channels 2 and 4, as opposed to the earlier sounding mix going from 4 to 6 track during the creation of prints.

The current DTS prints are derived from a Chace-ized clean-up, which is not fully reprentative of the original, although some defects within the original recordings were eliminanted.

The original magnetic master, which was on Zonal stock, had a nasty habit of clotting heads every 10-15 feet and was not used for the restoration. The best surviving audio was derived from the 4 track print master, which had well over 120 runs on it. Frequency was not what it may have been in 1962.

All original magnetic recordings and mixing elements were junked in 1970.

RAH

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-29-2006, 03:55 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
My guess to the cause of the problem was a brain wrap (assuming the show was run from a platter).

The film was run from a platter, but it was not a brain wrap. It was a splice that opened up right below the intermitted and wrapped around the sprocket. It was a used print with a lot of splices.
The theatre is equipped with two Century JJ's, one set-up for 35mm and the other set-up for 70MM (with the 70MM DTS reader) and an AW-3, plus a Digital projector.

Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 03-29-2006, 05:05 PM:

Sounds like a simple problem to me. Why would the manager cancel the show saying that it couldn't be fixed?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-29-2006, 05:13 PM:

I would wonder why a person in the audience had to help. To go from, 'the problem could not be fixed' to being onscreen 15 minutes later seems strange (unless the Ziegfeld's policy is anything taking longer than five minutes is considered 'lost'.) Not knowing the exact circumstances, I don't want to sound critical, but it would be interesting to know.

I also don't think that just giving passes out to return later is good customer service. Again, there may be more to the story, but if not ...

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-29-2006, 05:20 PM:

I was in NYC on business on Mon and Tue, but I missed LOA. The day I went to the theater, they were closed because they were installing a new DLP projector, and preparing for the VIP premier of Ice Age 2 that night.

Bummer. [Frown]

I did get to tour the theater though, which was nice.

I believe LOA ends tomorrow (Thursday).

Posted by Brett G. Sherris (Member # 3543) on 04-08-2006, 11:07 PM:

Quick note...

The same DTS print of LAWRENCE is currently running at the South Bay cinema in West Babylon, Long Island, NY.

According to the manager, the first two reels after the intermission have been replaced by Columbia due to the damage done to the print at the Ziegfeld a few weeks ago.

B.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 04-10-2006, 04:07 PM:

The first TWO reels after intermission??? Cripes! When you're running 70mm (AND LOR to boot) SURELY you'd be careful enough (and experienced enough) to know there's a problem before it pummelled TWO reels of the damn thing!

But then again, it was ready to be cancelled due to the problem...until of course a REAL PROJECTIONIST came to the rescue.

What's the setup at the Ziegfield anyway? How many screens and how many 'operators'?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-10-2006, 05:57 PM:

There's just one screen at the Ziefeld; about 1100 seats in the auditorium. Plenty of world premieres have been held there. I don't know about the number of operators. But it is pretty embarrasing when a premiere-class movie theater in Midtown Manhattan has a snafu that trashes a rare 70mm film print.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-11-2006, 08:03 AM:

The Zig ... The ceiling speakers are still there, but I doubt they are used. At least they got rid of the orange extension cord used to connect the surround speakers....

Thanks, Pete!

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-18-2006, 06:27 AM:

Well, if the theatre is following the same policy they had when they scratched and mauled one of two new prints of 2001:ASO that I saw there in 2002, it is no wonder. Back then, they had some kid, looked like he was old enough to be in High School, sitting OUTSIDE the booth. He explained to me, when I finally went up to tell him that the frame-line was IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SCREEN and the sound was warbley and muffled, obviousely not properly threaded in the penthouse, that it was his job ONLY "to switch to the small film (35mm) if the big film (70mm) breaks." He didn't touch anything else. AND he couldn't let me in the booth. But he would try to reframe it. Good boy.

Seems they were running a 35mm "backup" print in tandem with the 70mm. "Does the 'big' film break very often?" asks, I. "Oh yah," says High School Harry. I said I would frame it for him. He said he couldn't let me in the booth or he'd get fired. I asked if there were a projectionist in the theatre. He explained that the projectionist only comes in on Fridays and Saturdays. I showed him my NYC projectionist license; he wasn't impressed -- he wouldn't let me in. He was able to get it framed, kind of. The sound was never fixed.

So now you know why the sound was not threaded properly in the mag penthouse and why it was out of frame and never brought back into perfect framing for my screening of 2001; more to the point, you also know why the they couldn't fix the problem. Luckily they did allow a real projectionist to get into the booth at your LOA screening.

So sad that the once prestigous grandfather of a long line of flagship theatres in NYC is slowly declining....how long can a single screen survive, even if it is the grand Ziegfeld?

But not to worry....all theses problems will disappear as they are installing a new DLP projector.....bet LOA will look just great on THAT! [Mad]

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 04-18-2006, 07:47 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
they scratched and mauled one of two new prints of 2001:ASO that I saw there in 2002

It was the Astor Plaza that had that run, not the Ziegfeld.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-18-2006, 01:51 PM:

My bad...you're right. Apologies to Ziggy.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 06-05-2012, 08:56 PM:

It has been 2240 days since the last post.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 06-05-2012, 08:56 PM:

so let me get this straight did the DTS 70mm prints of 'Lawrence' have the five front channel sound or was it 3 front/stereo surround - what does this mean for the recent restoration, since DCI specs has the LC/RC channels of sound in place, Sony has the chance to actual encode, preserve the original mix. I'm assuming though when Sony actually releases the film theatrically prior it's bluray release (that's the tentative plan) the mix will be the commonplace 5.1 remix, since most theaters don't have LC/RC speakers rigged. It's really sad that while digital picture is making technological advances, past cinema 'sound' is just being ignored, phased out (or are studios actually encoding pre-1977 70mm films DCP's with five front channel sound and we just don't know about it?)

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 06-06-2012, 12:49 PM:

We have discs available for both mixes: the original mix with 5 screen channels and mono surrounds, and also a 5.1 remix.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 09-04-2012, 05:42 PM:

from what I can tell, Sony is presenting the restored print via Fathom Event's which is essentially a satellite feed - correct? wow, from 70mm to substandard craptastic satellite picture quality ... I am shocked and appalled

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 09-04-2012, 06:11 PM:

Actually unlike most Fathom events, Lawrence of Arabia is being presented with DCPs, either 2K or 4K depending on the theater.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 09-04-2012, 08:50 PM:

^ [beer]

as it should be (well more ideally 70mm) - but thanks for the info!

Posted by Derek Young (Member # 7160) on 09-05-2012, 10:52 AM:

Lawrence is screening in the London Film Festival in NFT 1 on the Southbank on the new 4K projector in October.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 09-05-2012, 11:09 AM:

at the New York Film Festival the screening of 'Lawrence' on Sept 30th is also 4K DCP