Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How do you build a print when the leaders are all out of order.

This is topic How do you build a print when the leaders are all out of order. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-25-2006, 10:10 AM:

Now that my private screening room is finally ready I grabbed something from my collection ( never screened ) for my very first screening. I open the box and all 5 reels had those nice paper rapping with the reel number ect. I thought very nice. Upon removing this band some of the reels were tail first while a few others were heads first. Then there was a long clear leader with handwriting on it that had a different reel number labeled completely different then the paper band. Beyond that leader came the countdown leader on each reel who's reel number were different again. What a disaster.
Its easy to tell the first and end reels by looking at a few frames for the intro and ending credits but how do you tell what follows when you cannot count on the leaders. I took a guess and ended up with reel 3 and 4 out of order.
On the bench I looked at the end and beginning of each reel looking for any consistency in a scene that may help but reel one to reel two jumped to a completely different scene during reel change so I could not count on that.

What do you do?

Thanks.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-25-2006, 11:03 AM:

For recent releases, you can see the first and last picture frames of each reel on the "Reel ID" section of Film-Tech, or use the reel ID service provided by Technicolor Entertainment for the prints they handle.

For old collectors prints, you could match the action to a DVD or video release of the film. In some really old prints (before the days of digital sound printed along the edges), the lab may have edgeprinted a reel ID and maybe even a sequential footage number.

If the countdown leaders actually came from the same print, you may be able to use the unique manufacturer's ID printed in magenta along the edge of the film every meter or so to match up the leader to the reel it was originally part of.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-25-2006, 11:21 AM:

quote: John Pytlak
For old collectors prints, you could match the action to a DVD or video release of the film. In some really old prints (before the days of digital sound printed along the edges), the lab may have edgeprinted a reel ID and maybe even a sequential footage number.

Edge printed reel ID or footage numbers would be ideal. Ill have a look. Just now going through this I would wish edge id or footage numbers would be a standard feature even on new prints.
Because Im a private collector I do not have the leisure of using Technicolors services.

Thanks for the tips John.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-25-2006, 11:32 AM:

quote: Alan Gouger
Just now going through this I would wish edge id or footage numbers would be a standard feature even on new prints.

This is a continuing item of discussion in industry groups like the Inter-Society Committee for the Enhancement of Cinema Presentation, but the issue boils down to where/how you can print the information without interfering with the digital soundtracks used today.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-25-2006, 11:36 AM:

It's usually pretty easy to tell if two reels go together by looking at the soundtrack. If a lot of the film has been chopped by projectionists over the years, it's not so easy but still can (in some cases) be done.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 04-25-2006, 11:56 AM:

There is always the trial and error method. Run it, watch it, and hopefully, you can tell what is out of order and what isn't.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-25-2006, 12:23 PM:

Sorting this out is taking more then one evening ( longer then I expected ) and as frustrating as it is I am not in the business so I have the luxury of taking my time but I feel for the projectionists working within a time schedule who got stuck with such a project. I bet you'd like to get your hands on the guy who last broke down the print.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-25-2006, 12:44 PM:

If SDDS would go ahead and DIE, we could go back to edge ID like before. Louis

Posted by Cory Isemann (Member # 2517) on 04-25-2006, 01:26 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
If SDDS would go ahead and DIE, we could go back to edge ID like before.

HAHA I was just going to say the same thing.

[thumbsup]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-25-2006, 01:30 PM:

Just to be contrary...Run the SDDS track and let the decoder TELL you what the reel is! (also possible in DTS XD10 units).

In truth though...the edge numbers are printed on SDDS film in magenta.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-25-2006, 01:48 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
In truth though...the edge numbers are printed on SDDS film in magenta.

Kodak uses sophisticated green laser recording technology to print those edgenumbers when the print film is perforated. Probably cost-prohibitive to implement similar technology on hundreds of lab printers around the world.

Before digital tracks, all that was needed to put reel number and sequential footage numbers on the prints was to ink the numbers on the printing negative, and use the edgelight on the printer.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 04-25-2006, 03:22 PM:

I really like getting prints for the collection with the heads and tails randomly attached, or sometimes just thrown in the box and crushed by the shipping company. Sure. [thumbsdown]

It always makes me leery of the seller in the future... unless it was revealed to me before the sale/trade.

I only have a soundtrack reader for checking my 35 stuff. I've only had one occasion to attach the wrong head to a reel and run it. Glad I still run 2000 footers. Nobody saw the boo-boo but me, and I dont tell! [thumbsup]

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-25-2006, 04:58 PM:

Is there such a thing as just a sound reader. Are they small and portable. This would be nice to have on the make up table. Sure would help trouble shoot things when needed. How much?

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 04-25-2006, 07:06 PM:

Available just about everywhere; Flea-bay, auctions, supply
houses. $0.00 - $300.00+. 16/35 or both.

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 04-25-2006, 11:59 PM:

I had a similar problem a few months ago. Fortunately the heads and tails which arrived with the print were the originals. There was enough edge-print information on the film to enable the cut ends to be matched with the correct rolls. The information I used was Kodak's own latent image manufacturing symbols. The local Kodak representative explained which numbers are applied progressively. So looking at the film as a whole it was possible to work out what went where. Plan B would have been to screen the thing and have someone watch it, which was least desirable because of the resources involved.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 04-26-2006, 12:55 PM:

As Floyd has said, yes there are small portable soundtrack readers. They are officially called squak boxes, athough my spelling may be incorrect.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-26-2006, 01:21 PM:

Thanks Mitch

I did a search for sound readers and came up with nothing.
Your reply should help.

I screened the full print last night and I have to switch the order of 2 reels. When I break this down I will make sure I properly label each reel for the next person.

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 04-26-2006, 01:32 PM:

Similar thing happend to me a couple of weeks ago. I opened the cans for our print of "THE PINK PANTHER", and all of the heads & tails for each reel were all detached and rolled up together, shoved in the bottom of the can. Without the aid of the "Reel ID" section here on FT, I would have been clueless as to the order of the reels. I'm really glad we have an internet connection at the theatre.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 04-26-2006, 03:42 PM:

Boy it sure is reassuring that they keep packing the lowest common denominators into the booths, huh [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 04-26-2006, 05:04 PM:

This is a Precision Labs Model 600 Soundtrack Reader, refered to as a squak box by film editors:

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 04-27-2006, 08:34 PM:

Presumably you can get a DA20 to tell the reel number on its serial output as well (how else could Dolby's Screentalk work?). And as you might expect, not only does the DTS-XD10 tell you the reel number, but so does its near-cousin the DTS-CSS.

But when we talk about matching up soundtracks, I think for the most part we mean by eye [Cool]

. Because the analog soundtrack leads the picture by 20 frames, the same soundtrack must be duplicated in two places. Because, e.g., for Reel 2, the changeover people need the sound to be on the head leader of R2, but the platter people need the sound to be in the last 20 frames of the film of R1.

This duplication (and the process which creates it) is called a "sound pullup."

So, lacking any special tools, your algorithm should be as follows:
1. Determine reel 1 and the last reel (from credits, etc.)
2. Rewind R1 tail-out and the last reel head-out
3. Attempt to match heads to the R1 tail and tails to the last reel head.
4. After matching a reel, rewind.
5. Match unmatched ends. Repeat steps 4-5 until done.

If you want to be really Hard Core (tm -- [eyes]

), you can read the DTS timecode by hand. Each timecode sequence goes from tail-to-head, and the first 4 bits are a reel number (next 16 bits are the sequence number). A timecode sequence starts with a sentinel, which is a 5-unit-long white dash.

A zero is a two-unit dash, and a one is a one-unit dash, and both can be of either color. Other lengths (e.g. 3-unit to 7-unit long black dashes) are meaningless seperators.

Oh yes. And trailers are encoded as "reel 14." I don't recall how attached trailers are encoded; I suspect it is R14 as well. And if you read "reel 0," that means the following sequence number is the serial number. Skip that timecode and go on to the next one.

--jhawk

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 04-29-2006, 01:19 AM:

I thought I had seen everything until this week. We received a print of "Mrs Henderson Presents" which was on 6 cores. However only reel 6 had a head on it. None of the others did. There were no cardboard separators - all 6 reels just piled one on the other. A note in the box stated that the last cinema had received the print damaged BUT had also had an accident on their platter and had to cut the film.
Thus reel 5 (it had a tail on it) had 4 different pieces of film attached to it with masking tape - but have no idea what reel they were from. All seemed cut with scissors. Not one reel of 1-5 had anything written on the masking tape holding down the film.
We gave up after an hour or so and got a replacement print.
So whoever had copy 27 of MHP - THANK YOU LOTS!