Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How do I deal with prints that arrive and aren't on reels?

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Posted by Georgia Fisher (Member # 3164) on 04-27-2006, 02:01 PM:

Recently, a print arrived at our cinema that wasn't on reels, just in plastic containers. I managed to get it put together with some creativity, but was wondering what the proper way is to put it together, and how I'm gonna take it apart? Any ideas? This has never happened to me.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-27-2006, 02:05 PM:

Do you play other movies at your theatre? If so take a reel out of the box and remove the flanges. Insert the core on the flange and attach the other flange to it. Then break it down and send it back on cores as it came.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 04-27-2006, 02:12 PM:

Darryl, that will not work if the film came on anything other than a 4 inch core.

You need to get a split reel to properly handle films on any size cores.

A split reel should be mandatory equipment in ANY booth.

-Aaron

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-27-2006, 02:24 PM:

quote: Darryl Spicer
Do you play other movies at your theatre? If so take a reel out of the box and remove the flanges. Insert the core on the flange and attach the other flange to it. Then break it down and send it back on cores as it came.

Darryl's suggestion will work if the print you have is on the 4-inch (100mm) diameter cores labs use for the current "split apart" shipping reels.

If your print is on 3-inch cores or cores without the necessary cutouts for the split apart reels, you need to get several 2000-foot split reels, such as those made by Goldberg Bros., Nuemade, or Hollywood Film Company:

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-27-2006, 02:42 PM:

Call the depot that sent you the print and tell THEM to send you the reels... cores and all. You shouldn't have to buy anything.

In the past 20 years I've only had this happen once. The depot had a box of new reels to me the next day... no problem.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-27-2006, 03:46 PM:

How many days in advance do you guys get a print before the show. I hope you have some time to deal with these inconsistencies. Some of the stuff I read that happens cant be corrected in a few hours time.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-27-2006, 03:51 PM:

Just don't book any more Oriental films! Seriously, get a split reel or 15" trailer flange. Louis

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-27-2006, 04:05 PM:

quote: Georgia Fisher
Recently, a print arrived at our cinema that wasn't on reels, just in plastic containers. I managed to get it put together with some creativity, but was wondering what the proper way is to put it together, and how I'm gonna take it apart? Any ideas? This has never happened to me.

Do you work in an Art House? Your description makes it sound like it arrived without reels or cores. This used to happen frequently when I worked at AFI. Prints from overseas, and sometimes from studio storehouses would arrive on what we called "air cores." Short films, especially from indie filmmakers, usually arrived on cores (and if you ever run dailies in a screening room, they will be on cores).

We always kept a supply of cores on hand and had split reels and flanges to deal with them. There is no kind way I know of of dealing with air cores, you just be as careful as you can. Sometimes the opening will be big enough for a core, other times you go with the flange. Wrapping a piece of scrap film around the flange can help protect the film (which is probably damaged anyway).

On the other hand, if it just came in on cores, yeah, get a split reel.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 04-27-2006, 07:07 PM:

We haven't seen film on spools for a very long time. All films come from distributors in cardboard boxes (sometimes one box with 8 spools) hopefully with seperators. We are expected to have the equipment to deal with it.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 04-28-2006, 02:41 PM:

I remember getting Le Divorce in a box, a whole day late, almost near the end of my shift, and labeling each side "Le Box"

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-28-2006, 03:05 PM:

In the UK and mainland Europe, 35mm prints are shipped on 2" or 3" cores, usually in plastic 'cans'. Changeover houses put them on their own house spools for projection. I remember having precisely the oppposite problem to Georgia's: a print being shipped over from the US on plastic projection spools, which had the wrong spindle diameter and wouldn't fit any piece of film handling equipment web had. Eventually I worked out how to separate the spool flanges from the 4" cores within and get at the film that way.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-28-2006, 04:51 PM:

Europe has the opposite problem to Leo's when they come to the states on 9mm cores. That is, the core does not have a 1" hole as is typical but it has a 9mm center hole with a hole for the drive dog pin and that is it. If you don't have a 9mm spindle with a plate, you are screwed.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-28-2006, 05:04 PM:

I'm trying to identify all the different spindle sizes, cores, etc. that are out in the world (as a sort of side project.) For example, does anyone make split reels with 9mm spindles like Steve mentioned?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-28-2006, 09:11 PM:

I don't think a conventional screw together split reel could be made for those Euro cores. At best one could make a slide together one like the traditional Neumade split reels.

To picture the Euro core...take a 2" core, fill in the 1" hole entirely so it is solid plastic...now drill a 9mm hole into it and then drill a pair of drive dog pin holes opposite of each other.

If you have a 9mm spindle with a flat plate, you are okay or a 9mm spindle with a "tightwind" sort of apparatus you should be fine.

Steve

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-29-2006, 02:19 AM:

Steve, you've mentioned these 9mm cores before; I've never seen one, and I've handled prints from many European countries. I think they must be very much the exception. our prints are normally delivered on normal cores like the ones you use there, with a 1" hole with a keyway. All three sizes of core, 2", 3" and 4" are quite common, but most prints will be on either 3" or 4" cores, or a mixture of the two. Recently, I have seen the cores with the extra holes in them to take the 'snap-together' spools like you have there, but I didn't know what those extra holes were fore until asked about it here. Most of our cores have just the single centre hole, like the ones which raw stock is supplied on.

I have seen two other types of core used for short lengths of film, usually trailers; one is a simple cardboard tube, which can be simply held on a finger while winding the film off it. The inside diameter is slightly more than 2", so if it is necessary to wind the film back onto one of these a standard 2" core, with a few layers of tape wound onto it will be a tight fit inside the cardboard core, and will drive it by friction.

The other type I have seen, and I have only seen one of them, is 1" inside diameter, and only slightly more outside, so it is basically a tube of about 1mm wall thichness, but since it is so thin there is no room for a keyway, so this is reversed, with a ridge in the inside. I've never seen anything that this fits onto, and it hurts, and doesn't wind off evenly, when holding it on a finger.

I have seen a hand rewind bench with 9mm spindles, which had fixed, non-removable, plates on both sides, I couldn't unstand why, but it would make sense for the type of cores which you describe.

John,

in antother thread I wrote, and can't remember how to link to it, the following:

quote: myself
9mm shafts are quite common in mainland Europe, and on machines made there. I haven't seen a Bauer 35mm machine, so I don't know if they are using the standard 9mm ones, or something slightly different.

These are close in size, but not identical, to the 3/8" shafts which are common in Britain; a 3/8 spool will usually fit on a 9mm shaft, but is slightly loose. I've seen both of these sizes with one or two drive pins, (one is more common) but since all the 2k and 6k spools I've seen in these sizes have four holes, it makes no difference. I have seen a few large tower spools for 1/2" shafts, which have only three drive holes, at 120 degrees, and these would obviously not fit on a shaft with two drive pins, which some 1/2" rewinders have.

Kinoton list both American and European 1/2" shafts for their machines; I don't know what the difference is.

I know of at least nine different shaft types on 35mm:

5/16" with key
5/16" with drive pin (rare, only seen it on a few very old machines)
9mm with drive pin
3/8" with drive pin
1/2" with one drive pin
1/2" with two drive pins

With 1/2" the difference does matter, because of the three hole tower spools.

Some machines have their own, non-standard shafts:

Fedi machine with very large spools mounted on the base. about 1"
GBN portable. 1/2" with smaller, closer, drive pin, like 3/8"
BTH Mk.1 SUPA. Weird, never seen anything else like it.

There is also 5/16" with square one end, like 16mm, not normally used for motion picture film, but is used for things like document microfilm,and so might be used on some types of equipment, like a film cleaning machine for example.

One reason I prefer to receive film on cores, at least they seem to be standard worldwide, even the very old wooden ones.

There are some spools which have a removable centre which can be swapped for running on different machines.

Most British cinemas probably couldn't handle a 5/16" American shipping reel, as they don't use anything that size.

We recently received a print late, I was rather alarmed when it arrived it one cardboard box, and two of the American style octagonal transit cases, which are not normally used here. This is far more than should have been needed for the print, which was well under two hours in length. It turned out that the cardboard box contained the print, on cores, in five plastic cans as we would normally receive, and the two American cases contained five empty plastic shipping reels, solid ones not the snap-together type. The print arrived on crossover, and left the same way, so it would seem that it had been to a venue which did not have the means to wind it back onto the 5/16" spools, and so had to send it out on cores, with the empty spools sent sepatately. I do have a 5/16" rewinder, so I sould have put it back onto the spools, but decided that it would be likely to cause problems for the next venue, so I left it as it was. The transit cases had a peculiar locking arrangement, with a small flat metal plate, which had to te threaded through an angled slot in some way, I can't remember the details now. It seemed very clumsy, is this normal on the newer transit cases?

I know of a few British cinemas which use 5/16" spools, including one which uses 6000 foot ones, which seems rather heavy for a spindle this size. I seem to remember that at the National Film Theatre the projectors used something larger, but the magnetic sound followers used 5/16", so different spools would have been needed for each. Do I remember correctly, Leo?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-29-2006, 05:02 AM:

That was 15 years ago now, so I'm afraid my memory isn't that good. The mag followers were combined 16mm/35mm ones, and I seem to remember that we ran 35mm mag bare on cores, from vertical plates with a retaining arm which swung across the side of the film pack which faced the operator.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 04-29-2006, 02:04 PM:

Stephen, those 1" plastic sleeves are sometimes called "trailer cores," and they are the way trailers are distributed in the US. They're compact and cheap, and the core set is not a big deal for polyester, particular trailers.

The correct tool to use them with is a "trailer flange," which is a flange (frequently 5", sometimes greater diameter) with a 1" hub and a keyslot (usually two) for the trailer core.

In the event that you lack one, or if the trailer core has been damaged (fractured/crushed, say; or squeezed such that it won't fit on the flange), don't use your finger! Just use a cheap throwaway ball-point pen (or other available shaft). Yeah, the trailer will wobble a bit, but go slow and it'll be fine. Of course this doesn't help putting the trailer back on, but that's rarely so important.

I believe there exist flanges that can accept these positively keyed sleeves as well as the usual negatively-keyed cores (a springloaded key and a slot, perhaps?). Steve Guttag has mentioned them, I think, and Goldberg brothers makes them.

We also have a Neumade flange which has the keyslots and a threaded hole with a brass screw. You can use the screw in a core's keyway, or you can unscrew the screw and use it the flange for cores. But generally we just use a dedicated trailer flange for the negatively keyed sleeves on trailers, and a larger trailer flange for cores (and split reels for longer material on cores, like actual features).

Oh, I guess sometimes we use 5/16"-to-1" adapters for small lengths of film on cores. These are aluminum frobs with a 5/16" keyed bore and a 1" OD that fits the core, along with a postive key. They're fine for taking the film off a core, but not so good for winding it on, unless you use a tightwind, and even then a flange or split reel is better.

--jhawk

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-30-2006, 04:28 AM:

John,

Sounds like what you call a flange is the same thing that we call a plate. We tend to use the word 'flange' for the sides of a normal spool. There would't be much point in the small 5" ones here, because a larger one would be needed for the features, and could be used for trailers as well. I've not seen one that can take the sort of reversed key on the very small trailer core, but since I've only ever seen one of those, there hasn't been any need for it in the past. The one core of this type that I have seen was only about three weeks ago; whether they are going to be used in future, I don't know. The new trailers that I saw yesterday were split about 50/50 between normal 2" plastic cores and cardboard ones.

The plate I was using yesterday is quite large, it would take 4000 feet of triacetate film, but I have seen even larger ones; typical ones take 2000 - 3000 feet of triacetate, which is what was in general use when they were designed. I don't think they've started making them smaller since polyester was introduced, and of course, most of those in use pre-date the general use of polyester prints in cinemas anyway. These are what a typical British cinema would use on a rewind benck, either for windig onto 2k spools, or for making up onto 6k ones, either for projection, or for later transfer to a tower. Places which don't have a bench, just a projector and a tower, which tend to be multi-purpose venues which run film from time to time rather than dedicated cinemas, have to make up on the tower directly from the cores; for this a split reel is generally used.

I've never run film on a platter, but I have seen them in cinemas I have visited. I din't think I've ever seen a print being made up on one, but most or the make-up tables I've seen seem to have a horizontal plate on top to take a core, rather than the side-mounted spool that you seem to have over there. This seems to suggest that British cinemas that use platters make up directly onto them, rather than making up onto 6k spools on the bench first, as is normal practice with towers, except for venues that don't have a bench. As I said, I've never actually seen this done, would anybody over here that uses platters care to comment on this?

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-01-2006, 01:46 AM:

quote: John Hawkinson
those 1" plastic sleeves are sometimes called "trailer cores," and they are the way trailers are distributed in the US. They're compact and cheap, and the core set is not a big deal for polyester, particular trailers.

they're nasty things. core set may not be a big deal running off reels, but the film can coil up and jam in a platter brain. and if the core has been smashed and left too long in that shape, you'll have all kinds of focus flutter.

the trailer cores work ok for the first-run lifespan of trailers, but not for archival purposes. and the "film is disposable" attitude is not one i think should be encouraged. 2" should be the minimum for trailers.

carl

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-01-2006, 08:20 AM:

quote: Carl Martin
they're nasty things. core set may not be a big deal running off reels, but the film can coil up and jam in a platter brain. and if the core has been smashed and left too long in that shape, you'll have all kinds of focus flutter.

the trailer cores work ok for the first-run lifespan of trailers, but not for archival purposes. and the "film is disposable" attitude is not one i think should be encouraged. 2" should be the minimum for trailers.

I agree. Trailers should be shipped on larger cores. There should be no shortage of 3-inch (75mm) cores, as every roll of Kodak VISION Color Print Film raw stock comes with a new one.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-02-2006, 08:59 AM:

Yes, but if you're printing trailers you might end up splitting up a 2,000 foot roll of raw stock into, say, 6-8 shorter ones, thereby creating a core shortage.

There again, how much does each print of a trailer cost? Say, $20-30 if they're printed in serious bulk? If you buy 2" cores in equally large quantities, I can't believe that they'd cost more than 50 cents or so.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-02-2006, 12:22 PM:

But the vast majority of print film is used for feature films, which in the USA and Canada, gets wound onto the 4-inch (100-mm) cores designed for the "split apart" shipping reels. So there should be lots of surplus 3-inch cores in circulation.

If not, Kodak will sell you some:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/supply/cans.jhtml?id=0.1.4.18.8&lc=en

quote:

Core 65mm 3" P
Core 70mm 3" S
Core 35mm 2" U
Core 35mm 3" K
Core 35mm 3" EE
Core 35mm 3" Y
Core 16mm 3" Z
Core 16mm 2" T

In high volumes, new 3-inch 35mm "K" cores are less than $0.35 USD (35 cents) each, and "reconditioned" 3-inch cores are less than 20 cents each.

Posted by William Collins (Member # 3773) on 05-04-2006, 04:21 AM:

Im used to getting trailers on carboard cores, easy enough to put into a film but a bugger to send them back on. in the end I wind the trailers loosely onto a surplus core i have and just push the core out, seeing as no one else is going to use the trailer i see no problem in it.

You'd think they make a standardised core for all prints/trailers which would, in the long run, be considerably cheaper.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 06-21-2006, 04:08 AM:

quote:
Core 65mm 3" P
Core 70mm 3" S
Core 35mm 2" U
Core 35mm 3" K
Core 35mm 3" EE
Core 35mm 3" Y
Core 16mm 3" Z
Core 16mm 2" T

john, what is the difference between "K", "EE", and "Y" cores?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-21-2006, 08:28 AM:

quote: Carl Martin
john, what is the difference between "K", "EE", and "Y" cores?

The thickness and type of plastic used.

Posted by Raymond Massard (Member # 2300) on 07-01-2006, 04:15 PM:

In Europe the prints are generally shipped in cans with cores with a 1 inch whole. The larger variety of these cores is what constitutes the core of US plastic reels. If you remove the flanges from an US reel you have an european core. You can also snip off the hook on the tip of the reel's "fingers" to easily use films on cores.
The 9mm spindle version was mainly used in German labs and have disappeared in the last 20 years. They were generally used with flanges from european style reels for 9,2 mm spindles. So you generally "sacrificed" a reel to use its flanges.
European make-up tables and spool-towers generally come with a aluminum platter with a 1inch spindle on it to make-up and take down the prints from and to cores.
And yes, in Italy films have always been shipped on generally 2 1800m (6000 ft) reels in a plastic carrying case called a cinebox.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-02-2006, 03:26 AM:

Yes yes, we get those darned cans all the time, usually beat up to the point that they dont want to close, or won't open, or the key (that fints into the angled slot) won't fit properly, and the wire handle hurts to cary the fool thing with. We also get some heavy plastic cases that hold about 4 reels, nice handles, and stackable too, but the hinges are poorly designed, and getting them to close fully, and latch, can be a challenge at times. Lastly, we also have a corrugated plastic box they come in. It usually can hold an entire movie, plus trailers, plus DTS disc. It's handle sucks, especially when it breaks. And because it's all in one big box, my 130lb self is challenged to carry it.

On that note, we had one of those big old corrugated plastic boxes show up one time. Label said something like 6 on 1. Basically 6 reels in 1 container. Yeah, it was 6 reels alright, at least 6 reels worth of film, no reels, except for 2, which were destroyed. The film wasn't even wound on itself anymore, just a big knot, wiht peices of plastic reel floating around. Was supposed to be that print's first run too. Had to make do, ETS wouldn't send a new print, said "there are none available". Took all day to manually, unknot and roll onto our house reels. Had to sweep, and mop the floors because we needed to just dump the box out. Then they tried to fine us because of "damage to reels and missing reels" and "damage to film, repair splices made" Yeah, we had to cut some of the knots out, but saved every inch of film, and used clear tape to put it together. And we notified them of its knotted state when we got it to begin with.

We also had some come in regular cardboard boxes that looked like they had been played hockey with, and taped, and played with again. The reels were trashed, but their hubs were ok, and the prints didn't come unwound, so it wasn't too bad. Had to supply the box to return it in, the old one had had it, film was hanging out when it got to us.

Oh, and that tiny plastic spool, with the strip on the inside, is what our trailers usually come on. We have an adaptor that fits our build table which consists of a CD sized plate (flange), and a hub peice designed to slide over the post on the table, it has a keyway matching that in the inside of the spools. It is keyed slightly under it's base so it will engage at the base of the post, but you must remove the drive pin.

Posted by Jarrad Salmon (Member # 3818) on 07-02-2006, 05:37 AM:

We only get that problem with prints from India. More often than not the prints are very dirty (blow the sand off it dirty)and very scratched. Even had one with no head/tail leaders attached to the print! Lucky it came with the spools in correctly labled cans.

Anyway, were could fit a small bobbin into the centre so we wound it onto the small bobbins and put it to the platters.

quote: Alan Gouger
How many days in advance do you guys get a print before the show. I hope you have some time to deal with these inconsistencies. Some of the stuff I read that happens cant be corrected in a few hours time.

More often than not we get these prints with only an hour before the show... with another running 10 screens to take care of! [thumbsup]