Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How low is too low for DTS LED Voltage

This is topic How low is too low for DTS LED Voltage in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008010

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 05-15-2006, 05:00 PM:

Would you replace them when they get below 1V DC?

They are already maxed out on the the adjustment pot.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 05-15-2006, 05:28 PM:

From my experience I have noted DTS readers to start failing around 2.5VDC. I always send them in for calibration when they reach 2.5VDC or below. (With the pot maxed out.)

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 05-15-2006, 06:54 PM:

I've had them work at lower voltage to. I guess I'd say that the voltage is too low when the sound starts dropping out.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-15-2006, 07:25 PM:

Once upon a time I spoke with a DTS tech on this...they claimed that at around 2-Volts should really be the lower limit. I know I've had some that were below 2-Volts that played fine (I now routinely check them and have stumbled across some that were playing that low).

One thing I'm amazed at is how fast they no longer seem to be able to reach 4-volts...some less than 2-years old.

Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 05-15-2006, 07:52 PM:

I have seen these readers work at .5 volts with no problems, we make it a point to check all readers durning PM's, if we find a reader down to 1-1.5vdc, we replace it...it appears the voltage drops about 1 volt a year...I seen brand new readers down to 3v max out....I would say to have it replace at 1-1.5vdc...good or bad, replace it....

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 05-15-2006, 08:10 PM:

Hi
Does this mean you have to replace the whole reader or just the LED?
THX Ian

Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 05-16-2006, 07:56 AM:

We do an repair/exchange, we change the whole reader, I don't think you can replace just the LED, you have to replace the reader...I could be wrong on the price but I think it is $350.00 per reader....

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-16-2006, 06:34 PM:

quote: Don Sneed
I have seen these readers work at .5 volts with no problems

I've never seen a player function properly with a half volt of TC comming in. About 1.8 to 2 volts is the minimum for stable operation. ALSO! XD-10's are ALOT more voltage fussy than both the 6D and older 6 models so be careful!!! Best to check it and reset if necessary.

quote: Don Sneed
We do an repair/exchange, we change the whole reader, I don't think you can replace just the LED, you have to replace the reader...I could be wrong on the price but I think it is $350.00 per reader....

Actually as long as the drum is servicable... the width of it is not worn excessively we just replace the LED in our shop for a 100.00 flat fee. It is a special LED. Gord Mcleod in Toronto also installs LED's in them.

Also be vary aware of worn drums. Its easy to check the drum with either a piece of frech estar film or a strip of steel film. Any wear of the width of the drum that is enough to allow the DTS track to weave off center will also affect its reading reliability. Lately I've seen about half and half that we have to return for worn drums and half that just need LED's. Proper alignment of the reader is an absolute must for longevity of the reader. The pisser is that the DTS T.C. bracket was not properly designed to allow the correct positioning UNLESS you remove the large flat washers to allow enough room to locate the bracket.

Mark

Posted by Mike B. Smith (Member # 2829) on 05-16-2006, 10:29 PM:

How low can you go? Well it depends… There are variables that exist which can determine Timecode readability such as reader head alignment, LED voltage and even the print itself. It’s true some DTS players are better then others for continuing to read at lower voltages, particular the DTS-6 and 6D but to prevent possible playback issues DTS recommends adjusting the LED voltage to 4V. If this can not be achieved, don’t panic as an average you should not let it fall below 2V, this is a recommendation for all units, although as stated earlier some may play quite reliable below that voltage.
Lately there has been some concerns over the early fall off of LED voltage. DTS is not ignoring this issue and has been conducting multiple tests with different LED’s and manufacturers for maximum performance. These tests do take time and unfortunately it is not as simple as placing a brighter LED in the head, this in itself can cause reading problems by over saturating the track. Many factors are involved with selecting a correct LED for use in a DTS Timecode Head. Recently DTS has qualified a new LED that is performing quite well, along with this; a new board design has just been completed that is also *RoHS compliant. This new improved head will automatically adjust to 4V on power up, if this voltage cannot be achieved, the green LED will blink on the Timecode head to notify you that service is needed. The blinking will only occur when film is not running, once playing the green LED will re-act the same as the older model heads.

*The RoHS Directive stands for "the restriction of the use of certain hazardous substances in electrical and electronic equipment". This Directive will ban the placing on the EU market of new electrical and electronic equipment containing more than agreed levels of lead, cadmium, mercury, hexavalent chromium, polybrominated biphenyl (PBB) and polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE) flame retardants from 1 July 2006.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 05-17-2006, 09:00 AM:

RoHS compliance is affecting many manufacturers with either retiring older models, redesigning existing products or coming out with new models. One manufacturer I deal with is seeing up to 400% increases in basic replacement components on future production runs. Besides the electronic components it effects the chassis, enclosures that are part of the product.

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 05-17-2006, 10:07 AM:

No offense to our European friends, but no one is keeling over from LED's. This is a classic example of goverment caused inflation.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 05-17-2006, 10:25 AM:

I havn't cracked one of these open, but if possible, it would be nice if the LED could be packaged in a user replaceable assembly. Moreover, an alignment mechanism as well as documentation for alignment.

I'm glad I don't have to send my 5 star sound head in everytime I have to replace an LED.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-17-2006, 02:49 PM:

matt said "No offense to our European friends, but no one is keeling over from LED's. This is a classic example of goverment caused inflation."

actually it has nothing to do with the led but the circuit board
all electronic pcbs must be lead free to meet EU rules now and since this in some cases has required a redesign for thruhole plating it often means a redesign of the product occurs at the same time

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 05-17-2006, 06:43 PM:

The reason behind RoHS has to do with the amount of electronics that is thrown away today. There is lead in the solder, and other parts. That lead gets into the ground water, that becomes drinking water. It has been proven that lead causes brain damage in children. If we wish to continue to be able to live on this little planet, we must start taking responsibly for our actions, and stop being stupid. Peoples lives are, and must be, more important than silly corporate profits.

One question about the auto adjust feature on the new reader, what happens if the unit is turned on with film in the reader? Would the adjustment fail?

BTW, I once tried slowly adjusting the gain pot in the DTS reader from one end to the other, and at no time did the DTS unit stop reading code (the green TC light did not go out).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-17-2006, 06:44 PM:

Mike,
What we have done is to select a brighter LED and run it at lower current to achieve the same brightness as the LED you are using. This allows much longer LED life... about 150,000 hours MTF according to tests the LED manufacturer has done and provided me with. So far so good.

The auto adjust is long overdue as is a decent reader with a drum not made from gum soft alumnium!

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-18-2006, 04:42 PM:

quote: Bruce Hansen
The reason behind RoHS has to do with the amount of electronics that is thrown away today. There is lead in the solder, and other parts. That lead gets into the ground water, that becomes drinking water. It has been proven that lead causes brain damage in children.

Did you notice that HUGE leap? Lead is bad for human consumption, period...regardless of age. However, there is very little if any evidence of lead in products thrown away causing brain damage. This sort of thing begets the "Envirowackos kind of labeling.

Is is not like the Lead was imported from another planet and is now stuck here...it came from here as have all of the other elements.

The manufacturers can choose for themselves, however if their market with EU countries is worth a redesign of their products. Personally, I have no problem with a soverign country deciding at what level they choose to look out for the environment. As a general rule though, I've found the Enviro-friendly products to perform vastly inferior to enviro-"harmful" products.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-18-2006, 11:44 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
However, there is very little if any evidence of lead in products thrown away causing brain damage.

Thats because the stuff has not been in the nation's landfills long enough for us to know exactly how it will affect all of us. It can take many generations for the lead concentrated in the typical landfill to get into underground wells and aquifers.

As for the last part of your statement I somewhat agree although I have used many RoHS compliant semiconductors in things I build with no degradation in performance what so ever. I do dislike the low lead content solder though....

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-19-2006, 09:18 AM:

The no lead solder requires higher temperatures and there has been reported a lot higher failure on assembly of many components

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 05-19-2006, 05:29 PM:

There is an old saying, "better safe than sorry". It is better to prevent a problem, then to try to fix the damage later (if it is fixable). American corporations need to stop their whining, and get it done.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-20-2006, 11:42 AM:

Just a little note. I came across a reader yesterday with a voltage of 0.7 volts. Thought it was wrong so I tried another meter. It was right. I ran the film and it ran perfectly. The operators said they have not had a problem with it. I did raise the voltage to 3.5 volts before I left though. It's funny how it can run fine at that low a voltage and other times I found it run badly at 2 volts. Go figure.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-20-2006, 11:51 AM:

"There is an old saying, "better safe than sorry". It is better to prevent a problem, then to try to fix the damage later (if it is fixable). American corporations need to stop their whining, and get it done."

The better safe than sorry phrase is wrong more often than right...in fact most advances in society came at very unsafe risks...including this country.

Just because someone like yourself wants to "feel" better about doing "something" does not mean that you are actually improving anything. If the precaution does not come at the expense in the quality of life of today, then go for it...but if you are going to cut into the quality of life for today, you better have some real proof that what you are doing is really going to prevent some catastrophy. In the lead issue, I just don't see it...it is a huge reach.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 05-21-2006, 05:57 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
In the lead issue, I just don't see it...it is a huge reach.

Lead gets into the ground water from discarded electronics. The ground water is used as drinking water. Children drink the water. The lead gets into their blood, and is carried to the brain. With all due respect, I don't understand why you are having such a hard time seeing this rather obvious connection. I also don't understand why you are so against preventing brain damage in children. I cannot figure out any reason to even risk such a thing. You talk about advancements to society, and quality of life, isn't saving children from brain damage an advancement to society, and a betterment to their quality of life?

In the overall manufacturing process, this change is not that big a deal. The EU corporations understood the connection, and made the change. It is too bad that American corporations care more about their profits than about peoples' lives.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-21-2006, 06:12 PM:

the other point is if you wish to sell your products in europe then comply with there rules if that market is not woth converting to meet those rules then don't sell but it is there choice as to what rules for products that are admitted to their market as they have to deal with the byproducts later with a much high density of population than north america has

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-21-2006, 07:26 PM:

quote: Bruce Hansen
With all due respect, I don't understand why you are having such a hard time seeing this rather obvious connection. I also don't understand why you are so against preventing brain damage in children.

I agree Bruce! Funny thing is that he recently had his first kid....The huge quantity of electronics that exists in old landfills today is mind boggling. Any effort of any sort to stop further lead contamination in todays society is a very good thing. As is any effort to clean up yesteryears mess.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-21-2006, 09:03 PM:

quote: Bruce Hansen
Lead gets into the ground water from discarded electronics. The ground water is used as drinking water.

There is the flaw in the statement...just what quantity of lead is getting into drinking water? After it goes through a typical treatment plant what lead levels are left?

Your arguement just does not hold water. Not even the EPA documents will support your claim (see EPA 812-B-94-002). That is where I have the issue with your whole arguement...that this is some real rampant problem. Current landfills even have membrains to keep lead from seeping in.

You are more apt to get lead contamination from old plumbing that used lead pipes and lead packing. It is not likely the landfill is what is killing you. An older house with lead based paint is also more likely to be harmful to your child than the contaminated water.

As to Gordon's statement...I completely agree...the EU can make what ever requlations it feels is best for it and companies can choose to sell there under their rules or not. I'm definately not saying they shouldn't.

I have not seen enough of the lead-free products, including solder to have an opinion on their performance long or short term to have an opinion on them. However, experience has shown that enviro-friendly products have thus far under-performed their enviro-unfriendly counterparts. So I approach another set of environmental standards with concern as to their performance.

Heavy metals are inhearent in any electronics, including batteries. How they are handled and disposed I think is where the concern should be rather than trying to overcome a superior system. Lead in the water table just isn't the issue that is being made here.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-21-2006, 10:10 PM:

"I also don't understand why you are so against preventing brain damage in children."

I love these type of statements, Because Steve would like more proof that EU regs are actually going to do something positive for the environment he gets accused of supporting brain damage in children. I love these logic leaps! Its just like if I said that I wanted more proof that the death penalty worked as a deterrant and someone used that to prove that I wanted Murderer set free!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-22-2006, 07:25 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
There is the flaw in the statement...just what quantity of lead is getting into drinking water? After it goes through a typical treatment plant what lead levels are left?

I guess Steve thinks that everyone is on City Water when in many areas that is simply not true. Where I live many have their own wells.... including yours truely. Wells probably account for 95% of the water in rural areas. As for lead paint contamination ossie I absolutely agree with him that is it probably more dangerous since many are directly exposed to it..... However... in the future water could become the much larger issue if contamination from landfills gets into large underground aquifers... millions of people could be slowly affected not just by lead but by other contaminants as well. Niagra Falls, N.Y. is a good example of vast industrial pollition of underground reserves and there are other towns in the U.S. with very similar problems.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-22-2006, 08:44 AM:

I also use a well...no problems here...but look at your arguements....it is in the form of "may" ... when in fact it isn't. BWT...we filter our well water...the water we drink is filtered a minimum of 2 times to remove various contaminants and as much as 3-times (more typical of the drinking water). The net result is actually quite good water (and chilled since the last filtration we do is a Brita in the fridge). The filters are changed every 90-days.

BTW...I think the stupid statement about me wanting kids to get brain damage is just beyond over the top. In fact, it goes to show to the credibility of the person that makes such a statement. They work with inaccurate information and then draw completely stupid conclusions.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-22-2006, 06:56 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
but look at your arguements....it is in the form of "may" ... when in fact it isn't.

I wouldn't consider either Niagra Falls or that town in Alabama that has been contaminated by a nearby government installation as "Mays"... they are more like definately are.... There are other ones too. Alot of people living in these towns have become VERY sick, many have died... these are not "Mays" they are definates.

I'm not too paranoid about the well water around here. Its been tested twice in a lab in two years and fortunately is very pure. It tastes great and is alot better than the water I had in Salt Lake City proper. No need for filters although I do have them on the line to the kitchen just to help reduce the calcium going to the washing machine and dish washer.

An interesting study on the effects if lead in the soil was done by Atlanta Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Its an interesting paper with alot of hard facts.... Here No "Mays" here either.

A bunch of links to data and info on the Love canal issue at Niagra Falls is Here no "mays" will be found.

Any town or area that had smelters operating at one time or another is also at high risk(not a "May") for large amounts of lead in the ground water and below.

Mark

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 05-22-2006, 09:48 PM:

Steve,

The fact that you have to result to name calling says that you cannot find a way to contradict what I have written. Let me tell you what is STUPID; waiting till we see the disastrous effects of this problem before we do something about it. That would not only be incredibly stupid but short sited as well. I hear a lot of whining, but you seem to be very short on facts, so please answer this question: why do you think that our children should be used as ginny pigs just to save greedy corporations a few bucks?

If you are in a client's booth and your hear a lot of noise coming from an intermittent, do you check the oil level, and put in oil if it needs it? Or do you just let it fail before you do something about it, costing your client a lot more money? We are talking about preventive maintenance. When you see the sign of a future problem, you do something about it NOW, in order to save money, or even peoples lives tomorrow.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-22-2006, 09:54 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
An interesting study on the effects if lead in the soil was done by Atlanta Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Its an interesting paper with alot of hard facts.... Here No "Mays" here either.

Yeah and none of the hard facts (though the paper admits many, many times over that it is not hard facts and is subject to revision) refers to lead contamination from electronic disposal. It refers to lead based paint and leaded gas of yesteryear as the significant contributor of lead exposure to children.

Your example of the Love Canal again does not support the claim about lead in electronics being the big hazard...the Love Canal was a toxic dump of the worst kind and even the papers you cite denote that land fills can be done in a safe manner and that the Love Canal is an example of how NOT to do one.

None of the articles you cite show how a properly run waste management site is going to get lead into drinking water.

If you want to be concerned...please do. The science doesn't back the claim (lead getting into drinking water from old electronics). I have no arguement that lead in humans is harmful and should be be avoided. I have no arguement that lead in children is particularly harmful (more so than in adults).

I have the same view of Mercury too...In fact, I was against mercury fillings long before that was popular and would advise anyone against them. The plastic fillings seem to do as well, look better and don't have the potential negative effects.

If there are lead alternatives that perform as well or better...I'm all for it...until then, I don't see the harm in lead in those applications that don't seem to produce the harm.

Note this view is consistant with my view of cyan tracks versus the applicated ones...the harm just didn't seem to be there to justify the change...the quality is measurably and audibly inferior with cyan to applicated.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-22-2006, 10:19 PM:

I think that driving should be banned. It is a dangurous activity that kills many people every year. Instead of trying to drive safely and enforce the rules of the road we should ban it because it is possible that someone could be killed, even a child! And we cannot allow ourselves to do any that has the potential to harm someone.

"Wont someone think of the children!" - Mrs. Rev. Lovejoy

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-23-2006, 02:08 AM:

quote: Bruce Hansen
The fact that you have to result to name calling

Name calling? I think not...the statements were stupid.

quote: Bruce Hansen
I hear a lot of whining, but you seem to be very short on facts

. Sorry, but no whining on my part...the whining has been from you and all your claims about people/business wanting to hurt children. As to the facts, I have indeed referred to documents on lead in water...none thus far have pointed to old electronics as the source of the problem...all have pointed to such things as lead paint and leaded gasoline (even though it was ceased many years ago it was air born and landed on the tops of most things). It is you sir that have yet to produce any evidence or facts to support your claims.

As to your oil analogy...where is the noisy intermittent? I'll grant you that lack of oil will lead to an intermittent failure and that lead in people will lead to failure...however just as a projector that is properly maintained with oil in the first place will not likely have an intermittent failre so too does the use of lead in electronic products. You have yet to show that the disposal of electronic products with lead in them gets into drinking water. You are trying to prevent a non-existant problem (lead from electronics getting into drinking water). Furthermore, from what I've seen on the lead-free solders, most if not all have the potential to allow illegal levels of toxicity into the drinking water...just not from lead.

So...rather than making your arguement of lead in electronics is getting into the drinking water because you say it is...present your data. The papers I've referened in previous posts and even the ones that Mark referenced pointed to Lead Paint, lead used in plumbing and Leaded Gasoline as the primary sources of lead getting into children, not electronic waste.

The service life of leaded solder and leaded components is pretty well tried and tested. To turn the absurd tables...if you were in an emergency situation in a hospital...would you want that equipment to be any less reliable in the name of lead-free? Just what are the long-term reliability of the lead-free alternatives? What are the environmental consequences of lead-free alternatives? If they are as good or better than the leaded solutions, I'm all for it. I have no stock in the lead industry. Please stop your whining about we are hurting the children because lead is being used in the world...you don't have the facts to back it up.

Anyway...I'm done with this subject and it is WAY WAY off topic and I do apologize to the F-T people for keeping it so far off topic...the moderators should probably move this back and forth over to yak.