Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Can a 70mm 30fps run on a platter?

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Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 05-16-2006, 07:39 PM:

I'd like to know if a 70mm print, 6 track mag stereo, at 30fps, thats "30 frames per second" run on a platter system..............and if so what company, make, and model?

Thanks,

Paul--

[ 05-17-2006, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Paul Vollmers ]

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-16-2006, 07:43 PM:

Post deleted by author in desperate attempt to hide his own probable stupidity.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 05-16-2006, 07:53 PM:

I saw OKLAHOMA and the short THE MIRACLE OF TODD-AO projected in 70mm 30fps from a platter at the Fairfax in L.A. back in the early 90s.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-16-2006, 08:10 PM:

Yes.

Christie AW370

Strong 35/70 platters

Kinoton platters with 70mm hardware

etc.
etc.

Most if not all 5/70 platters should be able to handle the extra speed from 30fps...

-Aaron

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-16-2006, 08:51 PM:

The Specco and the ORC handle 70 well

Posted by Jeff Joseph (Member # 511) on 05-16-2006, 09:12 PM:

Ah, I remember that Fairfax screening well!

The platter system sounded like it was going to explode, it was going so fast. But yes, it worked.

That said: There is only one print available in 30 fps mag, "Oklahoma!". And it's not in all that great of shape anymore. I don't think it should be plattered.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-17-2006, 11:49 AM:

Uh-oh.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-17-2006, 12:24 PM:

Note that SPECO decks would need to be demagnetized for 70mm (or 35mm mag) use.

Related question: How does one convert a Century JJ for 30fps use? Can it be done mechanically, or does one need an inverter or some other type of electronic motor speed control?

[ 05-17-2006, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Scott Norwood ]

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 05-17-2006, 01:07 PM:

The Heights used their 4-deck SPECO LP-270 for Oklahoma! at 30 fps. After a degaussing I was told it was quite the sight.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-17-2006, 01:52 PM:

Most nearly any platter will work. That is not so fast. Warning SOME Stron/Potts 5 deck platters will not accept 70mm at all. Speed is not an issue; but size is (too close together.) Louis

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 05-17-2006, 02:17 PM:

Scott-- On a Century JJ speed change is handled through a
belt-shift.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-17-2006, 02:46 PM:

Nevr found a magatism issue with a specco deck but the screws on a ORC were magnetized

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-17-2006, 03:02 PM:

I can't believe nobody has asked this....

Hey, Paul: What're you gearing up to show?

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 05-18-2006, 02:45 AM:

Here at Pictureville

Victoria 8 ( with an inverter)and/or DP70

Cinemeccanica 5 deck 35/70 platter

This platter also runs centre panel of Cinerama at 146.5 feet a minute, 5 feet p m faster than 30fps 70mm! [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 05-18-2006, 07:01 AM:

Manny,
A friend of mine has 70mm change overs and runs 70mm 30fps, we are thinking of trading some prints however, I have only one DP70 and must run a platter....35/70mm 5 deck, and the question came up about the speed........there are only a few 70mm 30fps prints out there.
This is for a private screen room.
Thanks to all that solved the speed issue.
That deck must fly towards the end of the payout.
I'll have to secure the edges some how.

Paul-

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 05-18-2006, 09:49 AM:

The SPECO can do it fine, but you do have to give it a helping hand when starting up in order to get up to speed before it starts to wrap. Once you do that the platter handles the show just fine, it just has trouble ramping up speed that quickly from a dead stop.

The Heights has run the Todd-AO print of Oklahoma several times over the past few years, both changeover and platter. The last time (fall '95), this print was far more worn and damaged than before.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-18-2006, 02:45 PM:

What brand and model of platter are you using?

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 05-18-2006, 03:11 PM:

Just a small point....

"That deck must fly towards the end of the payout."
"I'll have to secure the edges some how."

The plate's run at their fastest at the beginning of the film. At the end of the film the plate is running quite slow.

Depending on the make of non-rewind you use I'd recommend the Film-Teck platter ring.... However if your non-rewind is edge driven then that's not an option for you.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-19-2006, 03:55 AM:

oklahoma at 30fps is showing in san jose at the california theater may 28-june 1, i would guess changeover but i don't really know. i've never been there but hope to make it. sounds like i can expect a worn print.

Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 05-19-2006, 06:12 AM:

Brad,
I just recently purchased a used 5 tear 35/70mm platter......I believe its a Strong/Balco, however I don't have it as yet.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-19-2006, 06:44 AM:

Watchout on the Strong/Potts platters with magnetic film...at each rib-support of the platter deck, I have found them to be significantly magnatized. So which ever track is laying next to the platter surface will be too close to this magnatism at each rib.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-19-2006, 08:58 AM:

Paul, you've got more balls than I do (or you don't care too much about that print). No way would I trust a 70mm print, let alone a 30fps 70mm print to that platter. Good luck.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 05-19-2006, 09:45 AM:

quote: Carl Martin
oklahoma at 30fps is showing in san jose at the california theater may 28-june 1, i would guess changeover but i don't really know.

This photo of their projectors looks like it's a changover.

quote: Carl Martin
sounds like i can expect a worn print.

Possibly not. This page from the Widescreen Museum states that a new 70mm print showed in Seattle last year (scroll to the bottom).

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-19-2006, 03:13 PM:

5 deck platter, Strong/Potts, has insufficient room between decks for 70mm. (You could remove the offending decks/arms.) Louis

Posted by Jeremy Jorgenson (Member # 2989) on 05-19-2006, 08:37 PM:

I've run 8/70 (24fps) on Strong Platters (3 decks) ... aside from the helping hand that Bill mentions at the top of this page, it worked fine. That would've been paying out quicker than 30fps 5/70.

Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 05-20-2006, 07:13 AM:

so....it looks as though the 30 FPS speed is not an issue, just keep an eye open at start up..........and possibly maybe a magnet problem.. I'll have to check when I get the platter...and set up.
I have a tech to help me on that etc.
I have seen 70mm 30 FPS go through a Norelco DP70 and it is really moving....but a great picture image on the screen.

Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 05-21-2006, 05:43 AM:

Brad,
What 5 tear 35/70mm platter would you choose? and why?

Paul--

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-21-2006, 08:50 AM:

Because of the less space I would not recommend and 5 deck for 70mm apps
If more than 3 is required the old Specco 4 deck will work

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-21-2006, 12:21 PM:

Gordon and Louis already answered that question, it's all about the spacing. I wouldn't trust any platter with 70mm film except a Christie AW3 or late model Kinoton. Do note that the Christie 5 deck does have enough spacing to work with 70mm, although it is tight because of cramming 5 decks onto the tree. Christie also makes a 4 deck version, but 3 deck systems can be found pretty easily on the used market which is what I am assuming you are looking for. I've got plenty of 70mm Christie conversion kits if you need.

Bear in mind those Strong rings are teeny tiny, so that thing will be FLYING at 30FPS on 70mm at startup...plus the major wrap issue you will have upon startup.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-21-2006, 04:18 PM:

Strong/Potts do have the large ring too.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-22-2006, 07:07 AM:

Yeah but the Strong large rings are the same size as the Christie standard ring. If you want more precise control, use the large Christie rings (and the Christie platter of course).

Posted by Jeff Joseph (Member # 511) on 05-22-2006, 09:52 PM:

Paul: I don't think there is a "new" print of "Oklahoma!", just the same old print from the early 80s. I asked Martin Hart (Widescreen Museum) about what you found on his site; he had been quoting somebody else, not something "factual" at all. The 65mm is not printable on this title and hasn't been for quite some time. I would be very surprised if anything newer than the early 80s existed.

Added later: Just heard from Marty Hart... yes, the print was from the 1980s, not "new".

Jeff Joseph
SabuCat Productions

[ 05-23-2006, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Joseph ]

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-23-2006, 12:35 AM:

early 80's... is it lpp?

Posted by Jeff Joseph (Member # 511) on 05-24-2006, 11:08 PM:

Yes, printed in late 1982 (just in time for LPP). Actually, there were 2 70mm prints struck at that time. Later, one "good" print was cut together and the rest trashed.

There were also 2 35mm prints struck at that time: One optical sound and one 3-track mag (no surround channel).

Jeff

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 05-25-2006, 12:13 AM:

quote: Jeff Joseph
There were also 2 35mm prints struck at that time: One optical sound and one 3-track mag (no surround channel).

Were these 35mm prints from the Todd-AO or CinemaScope version?

Posted by Gordon Burke (Member # 3370) on 05-30-2006, 01:53 PM:

quote: Jeff Joseph
Yes, printed in late 1982 (just in time for LPP). Actually, there were 2 70mm prints struck at that time. Later, one "good" print was cut together and the rest trashed.

I just saw what is probably this last print at the "California" and it is presentable with some problems.

The LPP fade is showing and it alternates with what I assume are splices between the two prints. The splices are visible in the California's aperture. There are some lost seconds during "I'm Just a Girl Who Can't Say No" and elsewhere in various dialogue scenes. There are obviously a lot of splices, but they don't affect the Mag sound or have enough lost frames to be bothersome. The first reel after the intermission is pretty nice to look at with the deep blue in the MGM fake sky behind the hoe-down. The ending when they ride off to the train station shows some pink in the middle of the frame... arc burn maybe? Emulsion and base lines are of relatively short duration.

We had two breaks which stopped the show twice in the auction scene, so now there are two more splices.

Some changeovers are abrupt as if there are a few lost ID frames.

I had just seen Larry of Arabia 24-hours before in the same seat and the mag audio was incredibly good for that show. This Oklahoma print had problems with dialogue that wasn't shouted while the musical sections were as clear as my CD. For instance, Shirley Jones is hard to hear, but Gordon McRae could be heard much better. I was surprised that the background sounds were so faint. I'm used to hearing the cows moo in the distance and the rustling tree leaves. Could this have been a format selection mistake on Packard's CP200? The various directional dialogue was present whereas it is all in the center on the DVD.

The 30fps makes a big difference in pan/tracking shots and dancers' arms strobed less across the screen. The 48-flicker rate for LOA I was familiar with, but the 60-flicker was something to behold.

As a film-nerd, I really liked getting a chance to see this film in this format.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 05-30-2006, 02:12 PM:

At the Heights' presentation of Oklahoma! some channels were selectively muted during the show due to track damage.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 05-30-2006, 04:58 PM:

quote: Gordon Burke
We had two breaks which stopped the show twice in the auction scene, so now there are two more splices.

I swear, every 70mm thread it seems like we get a comment about how "the film broke". Why aren't people inspecting their prints and adjusting their gate tension ?!? [Mad]

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 05-30-2006, 05:19 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
If you want more precise control, use the large Christie rings

what?? since when does size matter? [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 05-30-2006, 09:06 PM:

I would sure like to see a fully restored or "new" Ben Hur, or Around The World In 80 Days... road show version.. both in 70mm .
Maybe some day.......

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 05-31-2006, 02:52 AM:

quote:
I had just seen Larry of Arabia 24-hours before in the same seat and the mag audio was incredibly good for that show. This Oklahoma print had problems with dialogue that wasn't shouted while the musical sections were as clear as my CD. For instance, Shirley Jones is hard to hear, but Gordon McRae could be heard much better. I was surprised that the background sounds were so faint. I'm used to hearing the cows moo in the distance and the rustling tree leaves. Could this have been a format selection mistake on Packard's CP200?

If "Oklahoma!" was run with the same audio setting as "Lawrence" then, yes, it could be a format selection mistake. The '82/'83 prints of "Oklahoma!" I've encountered are non-Dolby.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 05-31-2006, 11:56 AM:

The CP-200 can run Todd-AO format, I'm unsure if it requires extra modification, though.

I agree with Dan, these prints need more careful selection in which houses they go out to. Whoever holds these rare prints ought to tour or speak with the prospective houses to see if their projectionists are competent enough to handle these beasts. [Mad]

We use the larger Christie-like rings for 35mm on our SPECO's & yes, they do give a lot better speed control. Not to mention they wind tighter, are more convenient for removal & threading & never pop out like the thin metal ones SPECO sends. We have some of the oldest platters in town & the original factory-drilled holes were obviously set for a much smaller ring! One of our platters used to be convertible for 70mm (though it never played here) and the SPECO ring left over for 70 is not only smaller in diameter, it's basically thin plastic with quite short metal pegs for security, not what I'd wanna run any existing 70 print onto... [Eek!]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-31-2006, 01:14 PM:

I am talking about the bigger rings, unavailable from SPECO.

Be careful about running those old 70mm prints on an LP270 SPECO platter. Those two rollers at the top of the takeup elevator like to have their shafts get bent and as such exerts uneven tension from edge to edge. Bad news for a 70mm print. These should be replaced with angled brackets.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 05-31-2006, 02:03 PM:

Brad, ours weren't from SPECO. They're the same design as Christies, but colored blue & bearing the current pin spacing for SPECO's. They were referred to as "film-tech rings" when I started here.

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 05-31-2006, 02:48 PM:

Steve, you are quite mistaken about this.

If you're talking about the blue rings you use every day, they are indeed from SPECO. That's what they sell you now when you order a standard ring. I don't know who you heard "Film-Tech Rings" from... certainly not me. The only extra holes in some of our platter decks are about three years old, drilled by me to accomodate Goldberg's Modular Platter Reels. As for the factory SPECO stuff, the 30-year-old curved metal hoops fit the same holes as the new cast rings.

The kind of ring Brad is talking about is something different entirely.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 05-31-2006, 05:36 PM:

That's good, I thought that would be an insanely small ring. I'm too used to SPECO's trademark red, guess I equated blue to the site.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 05-31-2006, 09:10 PM:

quote: Steve Scott
The CP-200 can run Todd-AO format

Not if the operator doesn't make the appropriate setting!

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 06-01-2006, 03:24 AM:

interesting to read gordon's remarks. i saw the show last night. a friend who presumably went to the same show as gordon did mentioned 2 film breaks during the auction scene, but said the sound kept going (i wonder how long). at my showing the changeovers were sticking a fair bit, sometimes remaining half-closed on the new reel, so i figured that's what was meant by "film break", but it sounds like another problem now.

there were several lines coming and going, and constant "jj" scratches. a few jump splices. the first 2 reels had an incessant clicking at the right, about 4 times per second. i didn't notice exactly when it ended, but perhaps that was a channel that got muted.

the california's screen isn't that big, and i can't say whether they had 5 screen channels or not, but the songs sounded great. dialog was weak. i don't think there was a surround channel but i was in the 4th row (there is a stage) so i could be wrong.

despite the problems, i had a great time. it was a 3 hour commute each way, though.

Posted by Gordon Burke (Member # 3370) on 06-01-2006, 06:30 PM:

Sorry to keep dragging this thread off the platter topic, but...

quote: Carl Martin
mentioned 2 film breaks during the auction scene, but said the sound kept going (i wonder how long).

I saw the Sunday 2:00pm show.

The image went briefly distorted for a couple of frames, then dark and it seemed as if it took the projectionist half-a minute to stop the DP70 while, yes the sound kept going. At the second "break," film edge and perforations were seen before it went dark again. At 28.125ips, that would need to be a lot of film piling up ahead of the aperture, or spilling into the enclosed chasis. Could this have been something more like the gate opening up or the safety shutter tripping instead of a break?

Are "JJ" scratches from the 35mm rollers and parts in a Century JJ? 35mm roller marks are consistent with what I saw, but didn't want to mention.

I noticed 5 screen channels from the first row of the mezzanine. Oklahoma! seems to not have used the surround channels for sound and ambient effects as we are familiar with today. Rather reverb from the musical numbers and parts of the choral tracks are in the surrounds. The female chorus under Shirley Jones' vocals in "Out Of My Dreams" was clearly audible from the surrounds. This is in keeping with Mike Todd's vision of making the cinema experience of this film much like seeing it on broadway. Coincidentally keeping with this vision, the California does not allow food in the auditorium. I don't think they have popcorn at the food counter either.

The California's screen and speakers are not permanent on that stage. The surrounds are on temporary brackets with Speak-On connectors. Even so, comparing "LOA" and "Okie" 24-hours apart, this is a well engineered and modern auditorium. I understand the Standford Theatre Foundation spent a really big amount of money on it only to get screwed when the the Opera and Symphony were guaranteed almost unlimited use of the space.

It seems that we wouldn't be having this discussion if a propper restoration version of this film were made. The fact that it can show in this format in so few places really sucks since this is one of the most popular American musicals of all time.

Now, back to the platters...

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 06-03-2006, 04:34 AM:

gordon, thanks for your further remarks. yes, that's what i meant by jj scratches, which were much worse on this print than i'd seen on other 70mm prints.

now, for reals, back to platters...