quote: Gordon McLeod

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Does any one have a translation chart between the metric wire size and AWG sizes

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quote:

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The following chart is a guideline of ampacity or copper wire current carrying capacity following the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge. As you might guess, the rated ampacities are just a rule of thumb. In careful engineering the insulation temperature limit, thickness, thermal conductivity, and air convection and temperature should all be taken into account.

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quote:

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Ordinary, next two gauging systems are used with electrical wire and cables.
AWG (American Wire Gauge)
It is known as BS (Brown & Sharp wire gauge). The AWG guging system is defined as geometrical progression because of drawing machanism nature. The 36 AWG is defined as 5 mil diameter, and the 4/0 AWG is defined as 460 mil diameter. (See ASTM B 258)
mil
represents diameter of solid wire in mil (1/1000 inch) or cross-sectional area in circular mil.
milimeter wire gaging system
represents diameter of solid wire in mm or cross-sectional area of stranded wire in mm^2 (square mm).

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quote:

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The table below shows various data including both the resistance of the various wire gauges and the allowable current (ampacity) based on plastic insulation. The diameter information in the table applies to solid wires.

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quote: Phil Hill

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While myself and many others here are willing to help out people, there is a limit when it becomes abusive.

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I think isn't abusive at all! And everybody can ask all kind of questions. So if somebody will have answer he will put it in post replay, and opposite!

It's good to put questions like this, specially because is some small cinema, and is good for knowledge to learn something new to people which is get around cinema for first time.

P.S. Maybee Amanda gonna invite us to premiere opening of cinema!
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-20-2006, 04:25 AM:
 
The occasional question to help someone out of trouble or to better understand a concept is fine. We chat here, we foster relationships, we give and take.

If someone is constantly taking, however, or otherwise using the forum as a way to circumvent hiring an engineer, I agree this would be abusing the privilege.
 

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Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 05-20-2006, 10:01 AM:
 
It would be sad if anyone felt inhibited asking questions simply because of some members' assumptions that the service industry may be undermined. The acquisition of knowledge is a legitimate function of any forum. The reason for that acquisition is the rightful business of the questioner.

Keep asking the questions Amanda for in so doing, you raise issues that are of interest and value to many. Any alternative, and it is the forum that risks being undermined.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-20-2006, 12:47 PM:
 
There are two sides to the aurgument
no one has ever sujested stopping asking question or advice being given but also if it appears that someone is collecting free information to circumvent the hireing of a qualified engineer to design a system then they have a right to be concerned
often there are questions that need awnsering to qualify the original asked question which is part of the service that a design engineer does
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-20-2006, 12:55 PM:
 
Gordon summed that one up pretty nice.
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-20-2006, 12:58 PM:
 
If someone want to put a theater together by themselves, what is the problem? If people don't like all the questions, they dont have to answer. I thought this site was to help people. I didnt know there was a limit to the information given.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-20-2006, 01:50 PM:
 
Richard, because there is a difference between advice or exchange of information and out-and-out free-loading. It is one thing when a person is trying to solve a problem and gets some advice...it is another thing to basically get free design work for their entire project.

There are gray areas there to be sure. Just like when an educational system copies copyrighted work for the classroom...there are limits as to what is acceptable. In copyright law, there is the legal system to make the determination...here it is up to the individual to determine when enough is enough.

Steve
 

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Posted by Amanda Mundin (Member # 3386) on 05-20-2006, 02:16 PM:
 
Thanks for the help guys

Amanda
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-20-2006, 03:38 PM:
 
I didn't mean to start a controversy... Those are just "MY" thoughts!

I think Gordon and Steve said what I meant more elegantly than my BLUNT "Tell-it-like-it-is" post. But! I've never been known to mince words!

Whether you agree or not with me, I could give a shit less! Your opinion is just as valid as mine, however: Like assholes... they all stink!

After all, I'm NOT into PC!

I just got tired of ALL her "Help me design my theatre for nothing" posts.

Have a nice day and go see a movie!

Yours in Christ,

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Jack Rapper (Member # 1958) on 05-20-2006, 03:56 PM:
 
If you do not know the answer to a question that you are asking,
you probably should not ask.
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-20-2006, 04:09 PM:
 
Now that makes no sense at all.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-20-2006, 06:50 PM:
 
Maybe there needs to be a defined limit on how many questions a person can ask within a period of time. Or maybe Film Handler's Forum should be replaced with a page containing links to qualified theater engineers and technicians. "Have a technical question? Call one of these professionals (and get out your wallet)".

I'm being facetious of course.

I dunno, it just seems like the "You're trying to get something for free" argument could be applied to a lot of the people asking technical questions. If you're gonna slap someone around for doing that, then let's be fair about it and not just single out one person.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-20-2006, 09:29 PM:
 
I think it's more about the even exchange of information, rather than the total amount of information given/receiced.

I like helping people and answering questions. It's just the way I'm wired.

However, there is a balance. You can call it karma. You can call it social currency. It doesn't matter what you call it. It's the concept that's important.

A person joins our community to give and receive information. In the beginning, they will take in more "currency" than they pay back. As time goes on, they wil settle in and begin to give out information... or even just tell jokes and socialize.

Take Bob Maar, for instance. He's the Joke Meister of this forum. Comic relief is a form of social currency just the same as giving and receiving information is.

How about Gordon and John? They give out WAY more information than they receive! But, if one of them asked for help on some subject, I don't think anybody would hesitate to pitch in what they could. That is THEIR social currency.

Okay... Ms. Mundin's account is runing in the red right now. I imagine that, if she would join in and socialize for a while, people would feel less like they are being taken advantage of. I'm sure they would be more forthcoming with information and assistance when they are able to provide it.

So... Why doesn't Amanda take some time to hang out in the Yak forum and tell us more about herself, her theater and what her plans for the place are? I'm sure that would help recharge her karma.

As it stands, it seems like a lot of people feel like they are being beseiged by a wraith who comes out of the darkness, swoops up what she wants only to disappear into the night until the next time she returns.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-20-2006, 09:37 PM:
 
Point taken.
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-21-2006, 02:04 AM:
 
Very well said, Randy, as usual. It's interesting you mentioned hanging out and socializing... before I chimed in on this, I searched the forums and didn't find one post from Amanda in "Yak". However, judging from the ones I found on FHF, Phil was making a valid point.

quote: Phil Hill

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After all, I'm NOT into PC!

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That's why you're loved so!
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 05-21-2006, 09:01 AM:
 
Looking at this another way, it can be seen that there are great rewards from working with the projection equipment contractor from the earliest stages of a project.

For one thing, the design gets done right, you can cover all the bases, and you can achieve a really great result. In fact, a well-designed cinema is the key to long-term viability!

There are some really great companies in the UK that are totally committed to quality and have a long track record in the business. Now it could be that the money isn't there to hire someone...but if so that has to be addressed immediately.

It's all about forming a team, looking at the potential business and then going out and raising the money. Who said that's easy? Of course not, it's part of the challenge.

And - if it's not viable then don't do it! It's far more honourable to back away in that case than to proceed on the proverbial shoestring with all the appalling compromises and stress that entails.

Not being judgmental here BTW; this is meant in the best way.

[Er, I'm guilty of not having posted in the Yak Forum myself. But that's OK! Everyone knows I'm a humourless, anti-social type that hangs out in the kitchen at parties... ]
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-21-2006, 11:08 AM:
 
This is a complex issue.

Personally, I don't think that Amanda has asked too many questions, and I hope that she continues to ask and is not rebuffed by the direction of this thread. Particularly good are questions about topics that can be answered in a sufficiently general way so as to be useful to everyone. (And, of course, presumably she has made use of the search feature in order to find older answers to similar questions, avoid duplication, etc.)

Sometimes it seems to me that the response people can get on F-T is not as welcoming as it should be, and we should really try to change that. It's not a good thing if people are afraid to post for fear of getting "taken down a few pegs."

It seems to me that if, for instance , a topic is of sufficient general interest for Box Office Magazine to run an article about it (what kind of speaker wire to use, and how to size it), then it is entirely reasonable for F-T to entertain such questions.

Also, we should remember that not everyone has the resources to hire a professional for some kinds of tasks, and even if you do have the resources, it is nice to have a good understanding of the issues yourself. Everyone knows that dealers are (or can be!) human and thus are subject to error, and a wise customer gets a second opinion or better yet, a personal understanding.

While I agree with Randy that it is nice to participate socially on the site, I don't think you can reasonably require that. If you are new to the field or the site, you may not feel comfortable participating in the Yak forum. Especially if you're not a particularly extroverted person. Also, it could feel immensely awkward if you had to "balance" your technical questions with jokes or comments about random pictures. It can even feel disingenuous to contribute to Yak just for the purpose of "paying for" your FHF inquiries. Sure, those things can be entertaining and can build a social dynamic, but they are certainly not required for us to answer questions.

(And of course, even better is if technical answers can be contributed about film questions; but certainly not everyone is in that position.)

The situation with experienced F-T participants like Steve and Gordon is complicated, too. We all appreciate their contributions, and they are extremely helpful. And even if major contributors might feel that a person has asked too many questions, they may still feel it is their responsibility to provide answers, or to correct misinformation that might be distributed by well-meaning but less-experienced individuals, for the good of the site. So there is a responsibility on them.

But of course, contributors like that, especially when they are also dealers, derive an additional benefit from such participation. Customers are much more likely to purchase from dealers who are well-knowledgeable and experienced, and I expect that several dealers on F-T have built good reputatations simply through F-T (not to say they are advertising here!), and those reputations help their business.

--jhawk [ok, that was too long]
 

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Posted by Clive Carmock (Member # 2882) on 05-21-2006, 12:22 PM:
 
I am not directly in the industry myself, and as such I have found the threads that have been generated by Amanda's questions interesting.

Everyone has to start somewhere, and I guess in the early days people ask more than they contribute perhaps. Over time you'd hope that as they gain experience then they can share that with others.

The way I'd handled a situation where I felt someone was 'freeloading would be to pass on that thread and allow those that wanted to participate do so.

Just my opinion.

Regards
Clive
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-21-2006, 03:23 PM:
 
Broading ones knowledge is always good and I think one will notice that awnsers have always been made available to anyone that asks but remember that design work is also often a value added feature of a package sale of equipment so if one is doing a proffesional project then it should be dealt with in that fashion
 

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Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 05-21-2006, 04:41 PM:
 
You can always choose not to respond if you feel that your professional advice is being taken advantage of, but in the spirit of film-tech one should answer if you like! One always has to take into account the circumstances that a particular individual may be encountering, perhaps they are trying desperately to save a deteriorating but wonderful single screen on a shoestring budget, or perhaps they're just cheap. I have had some "customers" who, over time, I have learned were just using my pricing to turn around and bargain with their preferred vendor, or fill their required 3-quote bid process. In that case, "thanks for the opportunity, but no thanks " has cleared that up in a hurry. If you feel that something may not be worth your time, you can politely move on.
 

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Posted by Alex Rolfe (Member # 1648) on 05-21-2006, 07:39 PM:
 
When we were trying to answer this question (speaker cable size, not how much help can one ask for), I found the JBL Cinema design manual at http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/cinedsgn.pdf very helpful. They recommend no more than 5% power loss in the wiring.
 

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Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 05-22-2006, 07:09 AM:
 
One can never be sure what the motivation is for a question. It might be that there is a desire to confirm an opinion that has been given by a so called expert. A second expert opinion is not a bad thing.

I really think that it is a stretch of the imagination to think that anyone could design a theatre installation from asking a few questions on this forum. They would obviously have to have existing knowledge and probably need to enlist the help of others to fill any gaps.

A friend who was a television sound engineer opened a successful art theatre after doing a large part of the installation work himself. He didn't know a lot about optics, projectors, aspect ratios etc, but I and others were very happy to help him and he soon learnt. With limited funds, I doubt if his operation would have got off the ground without such help.

Many of you work in an industry which will under go rapid technological change in rather the same way as the television industry did a few decades ago. When one works in one medium for many years and then that suddenly changes to another, you become very grateful for answers to questions. It is really surprising how quickly that change can happen and how when, in the latter stages of your career, you become grateful to learn from the "children".

My point is, those who are comfortable in their ivory towers of knowledge, may find themselves dependant tomorrow on those whom they scorn today. Put another way, you should always be nice to people when you're on the way up, because you never know when you might meet them on your way down.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-22-2006, 06:10 PM:
 

quote: Warren Smyth

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you should always be nice to people when you're on the way up, because you never know when you might meet them on your way down.

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HA! That one always really cracks me up! It's the lame people hanging on to the reasons and trying to justify their professional failure. I have yet to see ANYONE who is savvy, proficient, passionate about their love of what they do "be on their way down".

Those that have the "smarts", work hard, and stay abreast of the constantly changing (technical) world because they are smart enough to know that's part of being successful will not be on the way down. PLUS they have that never-ending spark of curiosity to constantly ask "why" and the desire to learn about new things and have that glimmer in their eye of wonder how things work Those type of people will NEVER be on the way down!

The successful will quit or retire at THEIR convenience and perhaps teach the "newbies" the history, procedures, "rules" (and how to break them), AND inspire them to take the bold risk of being creative and thinking out of the (stagnant) box.

IF you are on the way down, you are a loser because of your lack of knowledge, willingness to learn and keep abreast of YOUR world, and/or just plain LAZY! ... plain and simple.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-22-2006, 06:34 PM:
 
phil, i love you dearly, but what's it to you?

if amanda has questions and other members want to provide help, where's the harm in that? i thought that's what this site was for. it's certainly what it has become known for.

i don't recall there being any mandatory socializing here in the past and i'd hate to see it implemented now. what's next? locking off the manuals section from people with fewer than x number of "assists" ?

i sure hope we're not picking on amanda because she's not a guy. that would be lame. i say that because we've been known to be very very tolerant of guys who have tons of questions.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-22-2006, 06:39 PM:
 
Manny, I could ask the same question of you...

I have no problem that you seem to think...It appears that you seem to have missed my point. I have no more patience to explain it again.

IF you read my posts, I just expressed ********MY******** opinion as I said in others posts! Get with it!

Rather than bitching at me, why not give her some suggestions for wire sizes?

Also, I think the suggestion of the JBL, or the Dolbly theatre design manuals would be a great idea.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-22-2006, 06:55 PM:
 
phil, you're madder than a wet hen!
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-22-2006, 06:59 PM:
 
You still remember that, huh? That's funny!
 

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