Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Electro-Voice has been sold

This is topic Electro-Voice has been sold in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-28-2006, 07:28 PM:

Telex, which owns Electro-voice and other audio brands is in the process of being sold for $420,000,000 to the Robert Bosch Company of Germany. If you have been to ShoWest, they have supplied the speakers for the presentations in the Jubilee Theater.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-28-2006, 07:47 PM:

Deleted accidental double post.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-28-2006, 07:48 PM:

Let them be sold... Excepting just a very few products EV for the most part is not at the high end of my favorite list. I always called them "The Me Too Company"

Mark

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-28-2006, 07:51 PM:

I totally agree, Mark. I was never impressed with EV stuff...

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-28-2006, 08:11 PM:

EV: my experience is that diaphragms are unforgiving and the large cone speakers need to be reconed every 5 years in humid conditions. (JBL/Altec may outlive us all.....I have acceptably good ones back to the '40s.) Louis

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 06-28-2006, 10:21 PM:

Does It matter who owns them?
With most speakers components now coming out of China, Whats in a name, apart from a great way to charge more? Personally I like some of EV speakers, especially the boxes designed by Neville Theile.
One DL18w in a 600 litre box could be tuned to -3db @ 25 hz. Now thats deep. Unfortunatly foam edgeing does not last long, but does allow a very noticable much deeper bass. [Razz]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-28-2006, 11:32 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
and the large cone speakers need to be reconed every 5 years in humid conditions.

If you think the humid areas are bad you ought to see em fall apart in the dry climate out here..... Phew! And some of those re-cone kits that arrive as many seperate pieces in a do-it- yourself assemble it/re-assembly kit!

Mark
(Live in Billings, MT Or... somewhat located inbetween Mike Blakesley's Auto Parts Store and The Amusment Park Drive In)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2006, 02:03 AM:

Oddly enough...professional drivers are still pretty much a hand made item in the US and are relatively low volume (speaking of the larger, reconable drivers, not the stamped out smaller ones).

While the DL18W may be able to do as you describe...it will still sound like Tupperware as all of the DLxxW drivers do. Also, they don't really have the power handling. The typical DL series driver uses too small a voice coil and suffers from relatively poor cooling as compared to say a JBL driver in the same application. An EV driver also poorly finished as compare to other drivers by other manufacturers. You can litterally cut your hands on them.

Now as to the recone kits...yes they are individual components but that allows for a more precise alignment of the parts to how each frame is made. The key to an EV recone is the "fixture"...each cone kit has a fixture (and shim) associated with it. So if you have the fixture...all of the parts go together rather briskly and accurately. The fixture assures you are dead center to the pole-piece and precisely aligns the voice coil (which is key). The spider is then applied and affixed to the frame...then the cone is applied and affixed to the frame. Then the spider, voice coil and cone are all expoyed to each other. However since the voice coil was placed via the fixture...even if the frame is mis-centered or even skewed...eveything will be in precise alignment since the pole piece is what centered those parts that are at the pole piece and the frame is what the spider and cone flanges are affixed to. After the cone/spider/voice coil epoxy sets up...the rest of the reconing goes as others...with the tensil leads being attached to the terminals and tested...if all is well then apply the dome. EV does have one punch their own holes in the cone for the tensil leads to come through. Expoxy is used to seal those holes except on the EVX series where RTV is also added to the under-side of the cone.

Depending on the generation and specific driver, damping compound may need to be added to the "surround" or "compliance" as well as silicone.

For a recone center, the EV method has many advantages...since these are all "process A" kits (all parts are separate) and since many of the parts are common to several drivers, a recone center may stock up on the common spiders/domes/gaskets and even cones. Then only stock the voice coils and cones that they use a high quantity of. It takes up far less spaced to stack a bunch of individual components rather than a process "C" kit which has it all pre-assembled like JBL does. Each cone kit takes up as much space as a completed driver...you can't nest them like with the EV parts. Often times, I can order just a voice coil for a driver I don't normaly see without having to order the whole Kit for EV.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 06-29-2006, 12:26 PM:

Their JBL clone surrounds do the job well. We had all EV loudspeakers in the digital houses when I worked at Lakeville. They're a competetive sound vs. JBL, especially if you're not driving them with excessive power at high volumes. This was a big suburban house, so moderate levels were the norm. JBL have a cleaner sound, I'll admit, though.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 06-29-2006, 07:20 PM:

Well Steve,
I wont argue about the build quality of an EV, Although like most loudspeakers they can be made to sound good, The Subwoofer box that I built sounded great and easly filled a 350 seat cinema! Ray Derek who designed the Panastereo processer seemed genuinely suprised that a single 18" box could go so deep. It would take at least 2 if not 4 JBL 18" woofers due to coupling to match.
Smaller voice coil are not necessarily bad, The main advantage is less leak between auditoriums at the same volume levels. In the current deverse world of cinema design this can be an advantage for the poorer designs. Less reactive speakers can have there advantage as well as disadvantages.
A friend of mine is negotiating the purchase of a plant to start manufacturing 27" subwoofers with a usable frequency range starting at 15hz. The bottom note of a pipe organ.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2006, 07:53 PM:

A single JBL 2245H will actually go down to 20Hz on its own and there was a 12cu ft enclosure design for it. It was their best at bottom end but suffered from foam rot, like all foam based drivers. I could not imaging the possibility of an EV driver being able to come close to it. Perhaps personal preference.

EV's TL-3512 used a single DL18W and had a 3dB down point of 38Hz so your box is clearly different. The TL-3512 did have a step-down mode for 24Hz (they included a port cover to change the mode of the box). The DL18W can handle 400-watts continious pink noise. What is the sensitivity of your box? The TL-3512 was only 95dB below 125Hz. While it may be adequate for an analog only house...it would explode in a digital house that is tuned properly of any size...for a theatre of a mere 45-foot depth, you would need over 5000-watts to achieve 113dB...KaBoom. For SR analog and below...225-watts should do you.

As to current product...a 2242H in a properly tuned box with B-6 alignment will tap-dance all over any driver EV presently makes, without exception. It will also play flat down to 22Hz in the current 4645C system (and B-6 aligned). However, the 4645C is 2-dB more efficient right out of the shoot and can handle 3dB more power. It too will not survive by itself as a stand alone for digital but will do far better.

Now to the hard facts...I have done a fair amount of reconing for Altec, JBL and EV over the years...I'm factory certified by both EV and JBL for warranty repairs. The ratio of EV to JBL recones is not even close...EVs blow up (same with the diaphragms). The biggest type of JBL failure I see is foam rot. The only 2242 drivers I see are those that are physically damaged (hole punched in them). There was a time when digital first came out when people were using their JBL 4645 (with the 2245H driver) just like they did with analog...except for the over 10dB greater demand placed on it...those jumped out of the gap. The 2245 is really a 350-watt driver. Okay for most analog use but for digital...it needs friends to survive in most cinemas playing digital tracks. In our example 45-foot deep theatre, it needs 4 units....just like the EV TL-3512. However, with four 4645s coupled... you are probably below 20Hz in response.

Altec drivers normally come in due to age (paper rotted after 30-years). Most of them live in cabinets with 103dB or 108dB sensitivity...they were not expected to handle much power.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 06-29-2006, 11:59 PM:

Thanks Steve.
I must admit that that example is out of date, as is my comparason with JBL. Yes it is only 95db per watt. It was an SR house, It was based on a Theile design or TL Box that EV published and did not use a step down design. That cinema closed last year and will be reopening in a month with a fully horn loaded 4 way active system by Lenard Audio and a CP650. I am actually going to be pulling out that subwoofer next week and placing it in the 90 seat cinema 2.

My passion for cinema sound comes from my high schools work experience program in 1986, where I spent a week in a Dolby Stereo Mixing suite. I found myself sitting at the same desk that mixed Star Wars in the 70's (it was sold 2nd hand to Colorfilm in Australia)

The film director was Philip Noice aka Patriot Games ect. One thing was very clear at that stage, NO cinema in Sydney at that time sounded anything like it! The filmakers themselves could not understand why cinemas were not installing the gear! But were sure THX would eventually save the day.

Unfortunatly Sydney only ever got 1 THX cinema. By 1993 Fred Pickering former head of sound at the Australian Broadcasting Corporaton, with over 30 years of experience, who was also frustrated by the situation, agreed to help me by providing advice and theory. Most of the time it was the speakers and acoustics at fult.

The first systems were very well recieved by the audio community, sound mixers and public, unfortunatly the cinema owners could not care less! There latest cinemas in that art deco complex feature P audio in poorly designed ported enclosures with no dampening material inside the box! which should remind you how bad the bad cinema installs are.
Hayden cinemas only saved a few thousand dollars.
Ultimately meaning that I have lost a lot of time and money learning how to do this.

Over the following years, I learnt alot about restoring and improving old Altec Boxes, A2, A4, A7 ect. In a lot of cases it is far better to restore than replace.
The last complete system I built was specifically designed to minimise leakage between cinemas in an 1930s art deco auditorium that had been converted to upstairs / downstairs cinemas. The owner didnt want to do an acoustic treatment as he did not want the cinemas art deco decoration covered up! The system built did sound above average dispite the problems. He was a struggling independant.

My most recent design for a sub woofer has moved away from boxes. I now use a 10ft lenth of 18" diameter sonotube or the tubes used to make concrete pillars ( only if the driver has a resonance of 30hz) place the driver in one end, loosly fill with fiberglass, and get a usable response from 22hz, this design is based on 1/4 wavelength principals and is very impressive.

Since then I have put my effort into helping John Bernet of Lenard Audio adapt his 4 way active speaker systems that he has been building since 1978, for cinema.

My main form of employment is that of a Projectionist and ocasional Cinematographer.

So thats my point of view, Personally I would like to share my knowedge with anyone who could benifit. It helps take away the pain of loseing so much money!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-30-2006, 09:33 AM:

Hey,

I'm a big advocate of reworking Altec speakers...the A-4, A-5 and 604/620 are my favorites. My findings are that the weakest link with them really is the multi-cell horn...switch to a Mantaray and the HF section really is better than most anything coming out today. The bass cabinet of an A-4 MUST have its wings or response will really suffer below 80Hz. To tighten the bass on the A-4, switch to the G series 515 drivers and modify the cabinet by blocking off the upper chamber and opening up the port (I have the numbers around here somewhere)...the response of the finished A-4 is pretty darn flat down to 40Hz. Likewise with the A-5, switch to a 515-8G driver and you have a decent system down to about 50hz...put it in a baffle wall and it will go down to 40Hz.

I really will put Altec speakers up against anything coming out today and attain as good or better response with much less power. Perhaps it is imprinting since Altec was THE speaker when I grew up but the 288 is the most pleasing compression driver I've heard. The 299 is a good compromise between power handling and response but the all aluminum diaphragm 288 is nicer sounding, to me.

Likewise, I really do prefer the 515 to other LF drivers. The JBL 2225 and 2226 in direct radiator applications are decent enough...but are the 3154s from Altec.

For subwoofers...I really do like the JBL 2242H driver...it is an incredible piece that moves a lot of air over its voice coil which truely allows it to play hard without power compression that similar drivers suffer from. I've yet to hear anyone's subwoofer that I liked better than the 4645B or 4645C with B-6 alignment...again...mere opinion.

I abosolutely do not agree with the current design philosophy that seems to have engineers making boxes to fit a particular size and profile and then use DSP to correct for the poor response....it just never sounds as natural to me. I also don't like the sound of a speaker system that spreads its drivers out too much...it is most unnatural sounding...there is a reason Altec biased the LF horn high on the cabinet of both the 825/828 and the 210/210A...to keep the two sections as close as possible. This business of having a tall midrange section seems to kill the dialog for me.

Contrary to some opinions around here...I have found most 3-ways to sound vastly inferior to most 2-ways...one can talk about the odd harmonics all they want but these low-cost 3-ways "honk" and there is no other way to describe it. Most cheap 2-ways do not have a hefty enough system on the HF. One can not crossover between sections willy-nilly and not have it cost them in the dialog...500Hz was chosen for cinema for reason...it keeps dialog clear...

... sorry...I'm rambling.

Steve

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-01-2006, 10:41 AM:

Steve: you hit "every nail straight on its head perfectly.# Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-01-2006, 07:29 PM:

I absolutely agree with the box/dsp comment! I wish cabinets were designed extra large so theatre owners would have to allow proper amounts of room in auditoriums. We have a couple of customers that actually design buildings around those shallow boxes [thumbsdown]

! Perhaps a revival of the A-4 sized speaker might wake these folks up and incur them how to design a building.

Mark

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 07-01-2006, 10:13 PM:

Steve I really enjoy your rambeling...

I once found one old lead lined sand filled multicell altec horn, originally from a cinerama installation. It sounded fantastic, at least as good as the modern EV that replaced it. I hadn't realised what it was, until I had done my back in.

something like this one from Lenard??

I have heard these, the very best sound that I have ever experienced.

The bigger system is totally horn loaded, the first will be installed in a cinema this week. It is to some degree a continuation of the themes and theories developed by George Osberger and the rest of the team. Its A4 sized but only 18" deep.

I'm sorry if my excitment is wearing thin but I just cant wait to hear these things properly installed.
If your wondering I do not have money in them!

Sorry for the lenthy edit

[ 07-02-2006, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Cameron Glendinning ]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-01-2006, 11:12 PM:

http://www.lenardaudio.com/06_professional.html

seems like some of this web site photos have already shown up here

Looks like over kill as the normal efficiency of a hon is high enough that therre is a power surplus
funny the brand we can't mention also rrequires soooo much power as well [Smile]