Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: If Media runs out - can it scratch the print (Superman)

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Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 06-29-2006, 02:36 PM:

Im shattered, after it's 3rd run one of our three SUPERMAN has rather light base scratching (don't know where it started, but I'm sure it must run to the end of

the print, because I had to look away and was much too busy to monitor it)
Left a note about what I'm going to say here the following for day shift, so they can check it out.

From what saw of it, it's very light base scratching in the centre of screen (in multi strip up 6) that get medium at very bright scenes and but for the of the time

can't be seen.

I started at 5pm, the print SUPERMAN was laced and ready to go for 5.30pm. I inspected the lace up and and happy with it.
This would be the third screening of new print, that I'm told by those who made them up said all three prints looked rather crappy (whatever that means)

I noticed that it had beed laced through the media cleaner/filmguard (which is not normally done on the first day, it's normally done on an old print that looks crap

on screen or any print that starts shreading)

I thought whatever, and left it laced through the cleaner, thinking there must be a reason. Nothing in diary though. That was that. The show went ahead (the 5.30).
Next session the 8.30, I bypassed the cleaner as could not see the point of another run on a new print. At about 10.15 the projectionist from the other site came for

a visit to drop off some broken-down prints and starting watching this print, after about 10 minutes he says 'Hey Bill come look at this, I said, 'No I've only seen

the first 40 mins' (didn't want to spoil it) and he says 'No this thing is FUCKING scratched' Loud enough I'm sure they heard in the theatre.

So I come over, can't see a thing on screen for several minutes (he thinks he's going mad) , but then I saw it (as described above) but only for a few seconds at

time, and would only appear every 5 to 10 minutes. Had a look down at the sound head (on these projectors the film follows a nice path that is lit by light from the

gate to see any scratching) and sure enough there are the train tracks on the print. My heart sinks. What is doneis done, I guess. He heads back to his site.

As said I was very busy and had the to get ad/trls back into feature-only function of another Superman, break down two prints (one of which I had no choice but

of using the pay-out method of breaking down because it was so out of shape and kept wanting to throw itself off the plate) and run 10 screens that were finishing

all over the place.

About 25 minutes from the end I got to inspect it more, it seemed fine for the 10 minutes I checked it, not a mark. This was the last session for the night, so

tommorrow someone will have to sit through and check the lot, and just see what is going on.

Anyway after the show I go to lace it to platter and thought I'd go through the media cleaner for dayshift, sinced that's what they were doing.
What do I see?, I see the lower pad empty and just the bare roller, it must have ran out sometime during the 5.30 show.

After that story here are my questions.
1/ As I did not lace the 5.30, should I have checked the media was rewound - enough for the run? (as opposed to checking lacing, which is not brainer)
2/ If the media ran out during the show, would the blank roller scratch the film?
3/ Should the media just 'jam' when it ran out an the film just run on the old last part (like should not be allowed to 'run of the end'?)
4/ A rewound media is good for runs. Is it possible that due to the long running time of Superman, it needs rewinding every run?
5/ Since these are mostly VERY light base scratches, will running every session with filmguard fix/improve it? (with rewinding media everytime!!)
6/ Ever had a READY shithouse night? I have now. (I feel like making a seperate list of what went wrong tonight. - A shocker!)

Got that off my chest, now I'm gunna drink BEER and get over it!!

Bill.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 06-29-2006, 02:47 PM:

quote: Bill Langfield
I noticed that it had beed laced through the media cleaner/filmguard (which is not normally done on the first day, it's normally done on an old print that looks crap

Why?

If you wait until a print looks like crap before you use Filmguard, it may already be too late. We run Filmguard on EVERY first run print, then it never looks like an old crappy print....ever

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-29-2006, 02:53 PM:

quote: Bill Langfield
1/ As I did not lace the 5.30, should I have checked the media was rewound - enough for the run? (as opposed to checking lacing, which is not brainer)

Was the media ran dry? If so, that's what scratched it.

quote: Bill Langfield
2/ If the media ran out during the show, would the blank roller scratch the film?

Yes it can, although it is supposed to simply start spinning and not scratch, but I've seen it happen.

quote: Bill Langfield
3/ Should the media just 'jam' when it ran out an the film just run on the old last part (like should not be allowed to 'run of the end'?)

If the tail end of the media was taped down to the supply core and the supply roll came to the end during the movie, a good amount of the rest of the movie would've probably sat there dragging across the last inch of media as it tightened up.

quote: Bill Langfield
4/ A rewound media is good for runs. Is it possible that due to the long running time of Superman, it needs rewinding every run?

If you have an older model cleaner and you are using FT or Kelmar pads, there might be enough to go twice. Odds are though that you have a newer model cleaner (gear drive, not chain drive) and there is no way it could make two passes.

quote:
5/ Since these are mostly VERY light base scratches, will running every session with filmguard fix/improve it? (with rewinding media everytime!!)

Yup, although after the print sits in the warehouse for awhile and the FG evaporates off, the scratch will project visibly again.

We really need to know more specifics. Were you running the pads dry? What kind of pads were you using? What kind of platter were you using? Do you have any sort of backtensioning on that platter? Are you using a chain drive or gear drive model cleaner (just take the cover off and look)?

Finally are you SURE the media was properly advancing? I've come across many cleaners in use out there where the takeup thumbscrews when tightened are still able to slip a little bit (either because the operator did not tighten them enough, or the rubber inserts don't "grab" the inside of the takeup core tight enough). What happens is that the media does advance, but it stalls every so often during the course of the movie producing exactly the kind of scratches you have reported. When the thumbscrews are tightened down, you should NOT be able to rotate the takeup cores on the takeup shafts.

quote: Bill Langfield
This would be the third screening of new print, that I'm told by those who made them up said all three prints looked rather crappy (whatever that means)

From the sound of it, they received a used print and the scratches were already there and you are worrying about nothing (except how to make the print look better).

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 06-29-2006, 03:02 PM:

Hi Frank, since you replied while I trying to edit my ramble to make sense. I'll reply to that.

Perhap I should had simply stuck with Topic as the body of the question!!

Anyway we only have one cleaner per location at the moment, so each unit gets moved to the print that seems to need it most.

It's a a bit difficult to clean 5 new prints at once. It is noted on the white board which prints have been treated.

Now back to the beer.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-29-2006, 03:59 PM:

Yes, a dry media cleaner can scratch film if it captures abrasive dirt particles. Likewise, film being pulled across the media back-up roller without media can get scratched.

FilmGuard or PTRs both greatly reduce the risk of scratching film during cleaning. Labs routinely use PTRs for cleaning printing negatives. Media cleaners used with FilmGuard are widely used by theatres.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 06-29-2006, 06:02 PM:

Ahh ok, it sounded like you didn't run any cleaner on it UNTIL the print started to look nasty.

OK beer [beer]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-29-2006, 07:06 PM:

Bill

In answer to your question...if you're running a Kelmar in the film's path then yes, the check of the media's capacity then becomes part of your thread check.

Are the scratches on every reel? If it's a local print...a while ago we used to get very light base scratches right out of the lab on certain reels.

You need to make sure this was indeed a new print and not screened prior to your location. You may be beating yourself up for nothing.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-29-2006, 11:02 PM:

I'd also tend to agree that the problem might have come in with the print.

One thing though...

A couple of replies have suggested that running a media cleaner dry could cause the scratches.

Considering that the cleaners were designed before the dawn of Filmguard, wasn't the intent that a roll of dry media could be used ONCE without damage to the print? I can understand rewinding them with Filmguard, but surely the cleaners weren't useless before that point?? [Confused]

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 06-29-2006, 11:28 PM:

Superman can be scratched?!!!

You can use a new media pad to wipe a lens, so it shouldn't hurt a print.

I'm too chicken to cut rolls in thirds yet.

We use used media to wipe down parts of the machine. They don't leave any lint.

Actually, a cloth made out of the stuff would be handy.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 06-30-2006, 03:34 AM:

quote:
This was the last session for the night, so ... Anyway after the show I go to lace it to platter and thought I'd go through the media cleaner for dayshift

not that this is what caused the scratches but... that's pretty poor practice: letting the films sit threaded overnight.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-30-2006, 07:30 AM:

quote: Jack Ondracek
A couple of replies have suggested that running a media cleaner dry could cause the scratches.

Considering that the cleaners were designed before the dawn of Filmguard, wasn't the intent that a roll of dry media could be used ONCE without damage to the print? I can understand rewinding them with Filmguard, but surely the cleaners weren't useless before that point??

In normal use, a dry media cleaner shouldn't scratch film if the media is new. But if any of the debris picked off the print is hard and abrasive, it can scratch. I once saw an entire print that was scratched by a dry media cleaner that had been used in an attempt to clean a print that was in a projection room that had lots of cement dust from demolition of a wall. The cleaner media looked like a piece of sandpaper.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-30-2006, 11:04 AM:

Like others have said, a media film cleaner can scratch film if the rolls get saturated with dirt or if the rolls run out.

Foriegn matter on the media is a sure fire way to scratch film but when the rolls run out and the film goes over the bare rollers it's basically a crap shoot. Sometimes it will. Sometimes it won't

In my experience, the best way to prevent scratching in the film cleaner is to make sure there is only enough film tension to make the cleaner work and no more.

The more tension there is on the film the more pressure is applied as it gets cleaned, increasing the chances of scratches.

Keep the tension as low as possible but still making the drive wheel work and you'll tip the odds in your favor.

Posted by Jarrad Salmon (Member # 3818) on 06-30-2006, 11:57 AM:

Hey Bill,

quote: Bill Langfield
2/ If the media ran out during the show, would the blank roller scratch the film?

I believe running the print through film guard without enough media pad caused the scratches late in the movie. The pads should still be clean over 3 runs, provided they were not rewound as you mentioned. However dry pads could also do some light damage.

quote: Bill Langfield
Is it possible that due to the long running time of Superman, it needs rewinding every run?

I have run about 18 average sized spools before I rewind/resoak or replace the media pads. I could maybe get more out of it but why risk it? Easy and quick to rewind/repalce.

quote: Bill Langfield
5/ Since these are mostly VERY light base scratches, will running every session with filmguard fix/improve it?

The information on film guard, seen via the products menu, mentions that film guard can help hide scratches on screen, while film guard is being applied... however I'm pretty sure it won't repair the damage. I have yet to see it hide a scratched print. But I am happily corrected on that point!

What I can say from experience is that film guard is a great way to prevent shedding. Better to prevent shedding than wait for it and then try to fix it! Running a shedding print through film guard, in my opinion, won't repair the damage from the shedding... but it will clean up the flakes and prevent extra shedding.

quote: Bill Langfield
should I have checked the media was rewound - enough for the run?

I think the lesson to be learnt is to make sure there is enough media pad to run over the entire feature. Also make sure it is set up properly when you check the lace. For proven film guard methods, see the "Proper/Improper use of FilmGuard " forum topic.

quote:
Ever had a READY shithouse night? I have now. (I feel like making a seperate list of what went wrong tonight. - A shocker!)

Enjoy your beer mate, The best way to ease the tention of a rough night... I will enjoy mine too! [beer]

Cheers,
Jarrad

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 06-30-2006, 01:27 PM:

Hi, Thanks to everyone for the help/responses I was freaking out about that I might have
Scratched SUPERMAN (and no, that would NOT make me a super-super Hero)

It’s a false alarm, looks like there is dud reel, scratched
at the printer or ran at censorship board.
But I was told ALL the prints were new. (However at times I’ve made-up ‘new’ prints
where a random reel is tail out and taped spliced at head/tail, and all other reels
are head out – what’s going on there? – Or even a new print with second reel heads/tail out)

Turns out it is just a few minutes that Jim watched. (What a damned annoying fluke)
I still need to watch the section he saw and see if other prints are the same.
(It’s the bit where Lex has captured Lois and says something like ‘Wrong answer’)

I’m still researching ‘WHAT WENT WRONG’
I’m sure that will be good information for all of us.

Brad: It’s chain driven cleaner (yup I took the back off to look)
John: Good point, if the cleaner is being used it should be checked pre-show.

Will bump this up on Tuesday, after I’ve figured it out.

Bill.

JARRAD

Good one smart ass. I'll get you on Wednesday.

How long have you been reading INFO from here?

(Now I know what that film-tech remark was about. Better send that picture of yourself you mentioned to Brad SOON - I'll throw one of those Bollywood prints all over you, if you want)

Did ya tell Jim how to fix the CP500 in C#2
that I HAD TO FIX ? He was freaking out, looking for YOU.

As far as I could tell the power supply overloaded
and needed time to cool down and reset

BTW: Who laced up the 5.30pm C#1 Superman that I started all this crap over, YOU, Dean or Jim?

Posted by Jarrad Salmon (Member # 3818) on 06-30-2006, 09:43 PM:

Hey Bill,

Haven't been here long, but it is a wealth of knowledge.

quote: Bill Langfield
Did ya tell Jim how to fix the CP500 in C#2
that I HAD TO FIX ? He was freaking out, looking for YOU.

I got to Jim just after you did... Being on a seat maintenance shift, I was either in cinema 4, or in the store room. All he had to do was call me and I would have sorted it out with him. We don't have 2-ways on maintenance, so I had no idea there was any issues! [uhoh]

But to answer your question, it probally jammed up and needed a reset. From what he was telling me, he tried the same things you did, only they didn't work for him! I guess thats Jim! We are getting the CP500's upgaded soon, been told the occasional glitches we get should be resolved that way.

quote: Bill Langfield
BTW: Who laced up the 5.30pm C#1 Superman that I started all this crap over, YOU, Dean or Jim?

It was either Anthony or Myself... May have been Dean too? Was a very busy shift. Dean came over from the other side because you were late and I had to get to a gig.

Regardless, you mentioned you checked it and approved it on the change over, and again on the feature check... balls in your court [fu]

. But then again if it is only one spool...haven't seen it yet... you are in the clear.

By the way, all of the prints were brand new and in sealed bags, heads and tails unspliced. Anthony made up the prints in cinemas 1 and 2, I made up the one in cinema 3.

I'll see you on Wednesday... I'll be the one covered in Bollywood prints! [beer]