Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DTS burn disc question

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Posted by Trevor Key (Member # 3496) on 07-04-2006, 01:00 PM:

Does anybody know of a way or program that is able to burn DTS discs? We're not certain if we're able to get a second DTS disc for an interlocked show.

Posted by Alex Grueneberg (Member # 2652) on 07-04-2006, 01:11 PM:

What disc are you looking for and how soon do you need it?

Posted by Markus Lemm (Member # 3456) on 07-04-2006, 01:51 PM:

There should be no issue with burning DTS discs. I have had to do it a number of times since alot of prints don't have discs with them. I use CDRWIN and have never had an issue with the burned copies. Just make sure that you burn at a low speed (2x) and that you use CDRs. CDRWs work but not nearly as good and the old drives can not read CDRWs.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-04-2006, 03:51 PM:

Any CD burning software can dupe DTS discs since all they are is DOS based information.

Posted by Trevor Key (Member # 3496) on 07-04-2006, 08:39 PM:

thanks guys

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-05-2006, 02:32 AM:

echo Monte's comments.
I've had 3 prints show up this year without disks. I take my laptop to another theatre in the area and copy their disks to my hard drive, then burn new CDRs when I get home. There's no problem with the copies.

Posted by Oliver Pasch (Member # 1335) on 07-05-2006, 09:57 AM:

quote: Jack Ondracek
There's no problem with the copies.

But probably with copyright!

Sorry, this might not be an issue in terretories playing the original language only, but in strange countries such as Germany, dub-sound is a must. dts-discs used to have a conflict with film-piracy as every "pirate" (don't like this term, Johnny Depp might now and then be a pirate, we should be talking of thieves instead) was looking for the dub-sound only (as the picture was already available from the internet, so picture and dub-sound only needed to be married...).

To point this out: dts technically solved the problem with the new "security enhancement" last year, which simple disabled the playback of the discs on a PC using winamp and a special plugin, so discs are useless without the print. But distribution (who doesn't understand anything when it comes to technical stuff) is still afraid of this and doesn't support the format any longer, well, only one major studio does.

Discussing a "dts burn disc question" like the previous posts in this forum doesn't seem very helpful at all. If you don't have enough discs (e. g. to play interlock), ask dts directly and they will send you another set!

Oliver

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-05-2006, 02:56 PM:

Point taken Oliver, but sometimes you need a disk "right now" and can't wait over a weekend for Fed Ex or whoever to get to you.

DTS people have said that they tend to "look the other way" copyright-wise when a disk is burned for legitimate use.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-05-2006, 05:44 PM:

There should be no problem with burning discs for your screening. Just make sure they are broken and binned at the end of the run.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 07-05-2006, 07:06 PM:

I've been able to burn them much faster than 2x. Just make sure the program you use to burn the disk has the option to verify the disk against the image file once burning is complete.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-05-2006, 08:53 PM:

If your drives support RW, or as the ones we have, as it turns out, are just SCSI cd burners, you may be able to burn to an RW. That way you can change out as needed without wasting any discs. Why on earth did they install burners in a system that will only ever read discs? Anyhow, this option will work only if you have a unit with drives capable of reading RWs, which either means newer drive, or the burners. I'd make temporary copies of the CD to use for the day/weeked, but still call DTS for the missing discs. Don't know that I'd mentioned you copied the discs, even if they look the other way, it'd at the very least be bad form. If the RW's don't work out, nothing lost but the time it took to make the copy, just have to settle for cd-R's.

Posted by Ryan Navaroli (Member # 3477) on 07-06-2006, 07:50 PM:

Anybody ever consider a torrent based system of DTS disc iso sharing?

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-06-2006, 09:10 PM:

I've considered it, and evene looked for someone doing it, but so far nothing. Doesn't mean it's not a good idea. Maybe it's time to start. I'd be worried that doing something that broad will make the people at DTS uspet. Because now it's not just copying discs that you already have, just not enough of them, now it'll be distributing images of the discs. And if one was already tehnically copywrite violation, sharing definatly is.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-07-2006, 12:22 AM:

Ryan asked, "Anybody ever consider a torrent based system of DTS disc iso sharing?"

This is a bad idea, both technically and politically. Even talking about it in a forum like this is likely to annoy people.

Politically, DTS and the studios get very upset when they hear about people proposing making discs accessible on the Internet. It is one thing for theatres with legitimate bookings to make emergency copies of discs from each other to ensure there is DTS for a show. The companies don't want to sanction that, but they understand your heart is in the right place.
Their larger concern is that distribution of discs over the Internet will allow unauthorized individuals to get access to motion picture soundtracks.

In today's environment, with the industry so concerned about piracy, it becomes even more important for the studios to avoid anything that might even give the appearance of making piracy easier (and yes, soundtracks are an issue for piracy).

If DTS and studios were to permit electronic distribution of DTS discs, they would want to centrally control it, e.g. via a secure web site. (Of course, this has been proposed to them many times and they have declined, still not feeling that it is sufficient secure).
Technically speaking, BitTorrent works by having the users who are downloading a given file also upload portions of it to other users at the same time. Generally, the only time someone is uploading a file is when they are also downloading that same file. As a result, BitTorrent doesn't make much sense for something like DTS discs where they would only be infrequently downloaded, and it would be rare to have multiple people downloading the same disc at the same time.

The other advantage of BitTorrent is to reduce the bandwidth load on a central server. But given the small number of people who have legitimate need to download DTS discs (the ones whose discs didn't show up for a particular engagement, particularly a non-break opening), it's hard to imagine a central server getting overloaded.

--jhawk

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-07-2006, 12:27 AM:

quote: John Hawkinson
But given the small number of people who have legitimate need to download DTS discs (the ones whose discs didn't show up for a particular engagement, particularly a non-break opening), it's hard to imagine a central server getting overloaded.

Indeed. The server wouldn't even have to be anything super powerful, just with a damned lot of hard drive space and a hefty amount of bandwidth.

I've offered before to host the files for free under whatever security dts or the studios wanted, but again like John explained the industry is so concerned about piracy that even logical ideas in the best interest of the patrons are not considered.

I still think it's funny how many people "camcorder" a movie in a theater. First off, almost all of the bootleg videos I've heard of have a timecode...so that sure as hell didn't come from a theater. Second, why a theater? Why not a drive-in? At least with the drive-in, the pirate would have little to no chance of getting caught, and have direct FM stereo sound to plug into as well.

Pirates are stupid. They aren't going to go to the hassle of trying to decode DTS discs.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-07-2006, 01:01 AM:

Basically my point, just alot better explained. Also, I agree, the people who are shareing the movie that they recorded with a cam, aren't likely to do much more than unse the cam's onboard mic. Maybe, maybe, they might patch in to the soudsystem. But that would require an insider, which should be shot, resurrected and then killed slowly again, by the anthill torture. I do know of another way to get the sound, and I will not mention it because the pirates are probably not smart enough to think of it, and I'd assume they can read this site, and some probably do. However, you guys are more than welcome to mention it. I just don't want to divulge any information on that in case they haven't come up with it yet.

[ 07-07-2006, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Charles Greenlee ]

Posted by Nathan Fettes (Member # 3545) on 07-07-2006, 03:50 AM:

I had two prints of Garfield II and only one DTS disk come. We made a copy so both would have DTS but when we shipped out the first print we included the real disk. Would it be a bad idea to send the burned copy with the second or whould we get in more trouble then just sending it with no disk?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-07-2006, 04:18 AM:

Never send back the burnt disc to the depots - destroy it.

They sent the print out with no disc and you leave it that way. Don't take any sort of responsibility on yourself when it's not your responsiblility to ensure that the discs are to be in the shipment in the first place.

Don't expose yourself to trouble.

-Monte

Posted by Oliver Pasch (Member # 1335) on 07-07-2006, 09:41 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
Pirates are stupid.

Unfortunately wrong!

quote: Brad Miller
They aren't going to go to the hassle of trying to decode DTS discs

Unfortunately wrong too!

Believe me, they did in the past, when it was still possible to playback a dts-disc on a PC (in stereo only) or, even worse, they owned dts-cinema-equipment and learnt from forums like this one how to start the discs from a keyboard, without the 35mm-print of course. This used to be the no. 1 source for piracy-media with 5.1-sound!

Please remember: there's life outside the US, that might be a little delayed when it comes to the movie business, but it happened every now and then that we had piracy media in our terretories with the picture based on the DVD already released in your country and the dub-sound in 5.1. dts was (again: past tense!) the easiest and most convenient source.

dts did their homework with the "enhanced security" to face this situation, but the problem of the format not having returned completely into the German business is still the lack of "watermarking"-capabilities (which is no different from other formats, only that those can be manipulated on the individual print by intentionally damaging the tracks at registered sections of the prints, which is no better by the way).

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-07-2006, 01:37 PM:

You missed my point. They aren't going to go through the hassle of decoding the dts discs. I meant that in current times.

Seriously there are MUCH EASIER methods for pirates to get picture and sound than futz around with the dts discs. While I'm sure someone out there has done it, I highly doubt it was common.

And yes Charles, despite your paranoia from your edited post above, camcorder pirates who plug into the assistive listening device receivers have been discussed before and I'm sure happen all the time. Heck, it's a lot easier for them than trying to come up with a way to decode the dts discs and then having to resynchronize.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-08-2006, 04:39 AM:

Ok, just figured that pirates can read the forums, and din't want to be the one to cause a rash of problems. [Smile]

But since the "Grand Poobah" of the forums mentioed it. Yeah, I think that's one possible source.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-08-2006, 02:29 PM:

Theory: Assume projector #1 (the Master) and projector #2 are in hard interlock, i.e., frame-for-frame like 3D. Then insert time delay on the output channels of the sound processor of #1 and feed it to the AUX of #2 processor, or if AUX is not set up for full 5.1, then using a small mixer, just feed the amps directly. Now calculate the delay between projectors #1 and #2, dial it into your delay units and there you have it. And to hell with burning disks and doing the studio's work for them.

On the other hand, burning a disk is a lot easier (and cheaper) than the above, as Jack explained.

Posted by Ryan Navaroli (Member # 3477) on 07-08-2006, 07:48 PM:

As far as being able to copy a disc from another theatre in case of an emergency... that isn't possible for me. The closest theatre that plays art films like us is 2 hours away who I have absolutely no relationship with.

I think if DTS or film tech (as Brad mentioned) were to be able to handle the tracker and have a method of ensuring that the user was a legitimate theatre I.E. technicolor ID, then there would be security issues. If someone who could sign up this would use it for piracy issues then they are no doubt doing a lot worse than pirating the 5.1 audio.

If a decent size group of individuals were committed to seeding atleast 3 or 5 films each then that would create atleast a decent database of possible films, and hopefully the number of committed users would only grow. There could always be a method of request that could go out through the community. Hoping that we are all good poeople trying to help each other out someone would answer the request and seed the DTS disc for the party wanting the disc.

Anybody ever transfer an ISO to another theatre that needed the disc? It seems just as legitimate as burning from another disc (assuming the digital files are destroyed as it was mentioned about being important to destroy the media.) If anyone ever needed a disc that I had I would be more than happy to go through this process. Would this be an acceptable request to post on film-tech or does that violate policy?

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-08-2006, 08:53 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Pirates are stupid. They aren't going to go to the hassle of trying to decode DTS discs.

Pirates are lazy as well. That is whey they are crooks. If they weren't lazy, they would get a job, and not be pirates. Being lazy they are not going to screw with DTS discs. Keeping the audio in sync would require edits every few minutes, due to the many variables (the speed of the projector, the speed of the camcorder, the speed of the editing system, the speed of the DTS playback system the pirate is using). This is not what a lazy pirate is going to do. Pirates just want to get the money and run. Quality is not important to them.

Don't forget where most pirated copies come from - screaner discs. Screaner discs would have 5.1 on them already.

Posted by Markus Lemm (Member # 3456) on 07-09-2006, 02:03 PM:

I am willing to commit my time to setting up a system for the legitimate transfer of DTS discs. I realize there are alot of issues with this, especially cross border since in Canada some distrubuters (Alliance Atlantis) do not like to buy DTS discs since it saves them money. It is truely sad when the industry is being sabotaged from the inside just for a few dollars.

I know I have called around to multiple theatres in the city to get a hold of DTS discs, usually the AMC have them since they don't use DTS on any of there screens and they have 24 screens so they have almost every film.

Maybe some kind of VPN with a password protect for each film. Also we would need to have a way to pass the information to each person directly so only a 'verifed' individual could get access.

We would need to insure that the files only get into the hands of theatres and are destroyed when finished.

Any ideas???

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-09-2006, 03:42 PM:

Give it up Markus. It will never happen without dts understanding the true need for this in the real world as well as the studios hung up on piracy issues as badly as they are.

Fact of the matter is that people who bought dts equipment are essentially screwed for opening day/weekend/entire playdate if the depots don't get the discs in the print cans, as well as in such a manner that they arrive without damage. If you see problems such as this, just buy Dolby next time.

This thread is quite literally going nowhere. Thread closed.