Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Breaking Down First Run Movie

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Posted by Armin E Pohl (Member # 3551) on 07-13-2006, 05:03 AM:

who is responsible for taking off the studio trailers. Should the first run theatre do this when breaking down the print or does Technicolour or Deluxe do this when they get the print back from the theatre ?

thanks

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-13-2006, 06:47 AM:

My policy (and most others on this board) is to sent it out in the same condition you received it....better if possible. Louis

(Of course, if you NEED that trailer...it probably won't be missed after first run.)

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-13-2006, 09:39 AM:

With an attached trailer (no splice between trailer and feature), leave it. The next theatre will remove it if they don't plan on showing it. With trailers you spliced in, remove them.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 07-13-2006, 01:44 PM:

I'd agree, just leave it as it is. We find out what trailer is attached and just add a few more. When it comes time to break it down, we take our trailers off, and leave the film with the attached trailer in tact. Usually, the movie on that trailer isnt released by the time it leaves us, so it could still be useful to the next place that runs it. If not, THEY can remove it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-13-2006, 01:54 PM:

There is no hard set rule on this. My policy is that if the trailer pack is not needed, to ship it back attached to the head of reel 1 (assuming there is enough room on the reel). This is the easiest way for the film depots to recycle that film AND most 2nd run theaters have to scrounge for trailers, so you are helping them out as well.

An added bonus is that it saves you time when breaking down.

Posted by Nathan Fettes (Member # 3545) on 07-13-2006, 01:57 PM:

Is it highly frowned upon to send back with out the attached trailer? We put a company 20sec between the attached and movie, and breaking down on Strong MUT, it just takes more time to get the company trailer off and then putting the attached on. I'll take the extra time if it should be done though.
Thanks

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-13-2006, 02:02 PM:

I'm still baffled that people actually leave the attached trailer attached to the first reel.

Every place where I have worked has either a) inserted a policy or snipe after the attached trailer (necessitating its removal); b) run the attached trailer as part of a separate trailer reel; or c) chosen not to run the attached trailer at all. I've never worked at a place that left the attached trailer attached, and I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why anyone would. I have occasionally received second-run prints with the trailers attached, although that seems to be the exception more than the rule.

In any case, the attached trailer, if removed, does not get returned with the print. Should it be? I don't know, but I've never heard anyone complain about this.

Here's another question: for those who remove attached trailers: do you leave a frame of the MPAA rating band (if present) attached to the leader as a "reference frame"? This has the advantage of assuring the next theatre to get the print that the leader was cut in frame, but also has the disadvantage that the attached trailer, if used, will not have a second or so of black at the start and thus splicing tape would cover part of the first frame of the ratings band, which looks ugly on screen (whereas splices made on black film are far less visible).

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-13-2006, 02:29 PM:

I put a Dolby snipe after the last trailer, so the attached trailer always gets cut off. The only time I reattach it to the print is if I'm very sure we won't play that film, or we already have trailers for that film.

As for the Reel 1 "reference frame," I measure about a dozen frames back from the beginning of the green band and cut there (in the black). The black leader then matches the black at the beginning of the feature.

Brad's idea of leaving the trailers on reel 1 is good, although it does cause more work when we receive such a print because we have to go thru and identify all those trailers. But we've gotten some good trailers that way that we couldn't have gotten otherwise.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-13-2006, 05:16 PM:

Nathan asks, "Is it highly frowned upon to send back with out the attached trailer?"

To be explicit, no, it is not highly frowned-upon. There is no set standard, and it is the normal case that generally attached trailers are not sent back.

On the other hand, I do think that, all things being equal, it is best to send it back, for the reasons Brad gave. Second-run theatres do appreciate trailers.

Scott, I really hate it when people leave a single frame of trailer green. All too often I get prints that have such a frame and no associated trailer, and of course, they have to be cut off.

--jhawk

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-13-2006, 05:41 PM:

Whether it's highly frowned upon, or who might be doing the frowning, I wouldn't know. I do know that the studios send plenty of printed material out, claiming that the attached trailer constitutes part of the print and therefore is expected, by the terms of the theatre's license condition against modifying a print, to be played. As with the rest of you, I know of few, if any who don't at least insert local content in there, and there's always the question of whether the trailer is for a film that's likely to ever play at that theatre.

The other issue I'd be interested in knowing from the rest of you, is whether you leave all of the black film that follows the "included" trailer. Warners started putting an interminable delay in there a couple of years ago, and I've seen some other studios doing it this year. It's just about long enough to make you wonder if something's wrong in the booth... well, maybe not, but it seems curious to me none the less.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-13-2006, 05:47 PM:

With Warner Bros prints, I'll put the lights-down cue at the very beginning of the long black part, so there's a nice slow fade into total darkness, and then the feature begins.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-13-2006, 10:04 PM:

We're second run and don't play trailers at all. Two reasons, first the customers have probably seen them more than once and second, over half the movies promoted in the trailers that come in attached we will never play. I think the customers appreciate not being subjected to the endless stream of crap.
When was the last time you had a customer ask if you could play more trailers?

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-13-2006, 10:45 PM:

At the Carmikes, we left the attached trailer just that, attached, and our Carmike trailer and then sound format trailers came before that. The attached trailer is in ADDITION to the 4 or 5 trailer Carmike assigns to the print. Also, I'd collect the loose trailers we are done with (movies already came out), and return them with a print going back. Not company policy there, but I figured the labs could at least recycle them, and it makes our trashbags alot lighter.

At Regal, we cut the attached trailer off, and add it to the rest of the trailers, putting the Regal trailer just before the feature. The sound formats are one of the first trailers here, oddly enough, though I'd prefer to do them last. This time the trailer is already considered one of the 4 or 5 assigned previews. It's not company policy, but we never return the attached trailer. So far we don't return any of the trailers, though I'm going to start doing like I did at Carmike, and return the finished trailers with the movies.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-14-2006, 04:09 AM:

I would keep them...come in handy for future presentations..

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-14-2006, 06:53 AM:

Actually I don't think that the master contract does in fact say that attached trailer must be played. For sure it talks about playing the feature from beginning to the end, but the feature means the actual title, not necessarily all the crap they decide to attach. In fact, if they were to try to legally push that, I think a theatre would have a good chance of pushing back equally hard and even winning by asserting that it is one thing to play a trailer that the theatre is planning to book, in such a case it is to the mutual advantage of both the theatre and the studio, but when the theatre has no intention of booking a title, then the studio is essentially trying to get free advertising for their product without compensating the theatre for screen time; in fact, the studio is not just trying to get free screen time, but they are charging the theatre to run it by virtue of the rental fee. Talk about adding insult to injury.

I contend that it is even more than monetary -- it actually is detrimental to the theatre because it confuses the patrons since they will conclude, rightly so, that the picture will be playing at the theatre they are in.

If the studio wants to advertise on a theatre's screen, then the theatre should mail them whatever form they use when they sell screen time to local merchants. Throw in a cover letter saying how glad they will be to put the studio's advertisement in the rotating stock. No difference as far as I can see than any other merchant. And if they don't like the idea of paying for screen time, I have a simple, equitable solution: take a few percentage points off my rental. Why should the studio think it can get screen time on my dime? It's just arrogant....which I am sure will surprise no one.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-14-2006, 08:41 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
Actually I don't think that the master contract does in fact say that attached trailer must be played.

You might want to check your contracts before putting ideas into people's heads, as anything physically attached is considered part of the movie and must be played. Just because you don't feel a particular scene is important to the movie doesn't give you the right to cut it out. This is no different.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-14-2006, 09:12 AM:

I've never seen a master contract, but I must ask if anyone actually ran the attached "Hard Rain" trailer throughout the entire run of "Titanic" (seeing that "Hard Rain" came and went long before "Titanic" finished playing in first-run engagements). This would just be an example of when such an provision would be truly unreasonable.

Legal or not, lots of theatres don't show attached trailers, for various reasons.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 07-14-2006, 09:28 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Legal or not, lots of theatres don't show attached trailers, for various reasons.

We're a calendar art house. Although we rarely get attached trailers, our policy is to only show trailers for movies we have booked (and never more than four trailers), so anything attached gets cut. Usually it is reattached, unless we think we may book the trailered film in the future.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-14-2006, 11:14 AM:

It was my understanding that the attached trailer may be removed once the film it is advertising has it's national release.

Of course I am not a booker. We need a real booker to be answering these sort of questions.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-14-2006, 12:16 PM:

Our booker has told me that there is usually no contract provision that says you must run the attached trailer. But there can be special cases -- like the recent "Cars," that print was supposed to be run without cutting the attached "Meet the Robinsons/Ratatouille" trailer off. Often wondered how many places actually followed that directive.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-14-2006, 12:29 PM:

OK, well... once again, those of you who do first-run might look over the printed stuff that comes in the can. Some might even get faxes before the show releases. Though not always, the studios DO send out flyers that flat-out say that they consider attached trailers to be "part of the print", with all the conditions that apply to the feature itself... they expect it to be played, and blah, blah, blah...

Otherwise, why bother to put it there in the first place?

The "directive" from Disney that demanded that the "Meet the Robinsons/Ratatouille" trailer, and the attached "One Man Band" short be left... and played, was in the form of a flyer in the can, as was their "no rolling stock" rule.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-14-2006, 02:51 PM:

If you are advertising a film that will not play your house...should you not be paid???? It IS advtertising. Louis

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-14-2006, 03:14 PM:

Jack says, "Otherwise, why bother to put it there in the first place?"

The answer to that, at least, is quite clear. Because theatres generally cannot be relied upon to play all of the enclosed trailers (there are just too many!), but they usually will play the attached trailer.

You can argue about whether this should be the case, whether it is rational, etc., etc., but regardless of why it happens, it does happen, and the studios take advantage of it.

--jhawk

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-14-2006, 05:05 PM:

quote:
I've never worked at a place that left the attached trailer attached,

FWIW, I would guesstimate that maybe about 1/4 of the used prints we get still have the attached trailer attached.

What I hate is when someone cuts off the leader AFTER the green band, removes the trailer, and then splices the leader w/green band onto the start of the feature without putting the trailer back in. That happens maybe about every 6 or 7 prints.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-14-2006, 06:27 PM:

That's your AMC and Cinemarks doing that. Personally I hate it when the green bands are cut, but I guess they have their reasoning. (It is their corporate policy.)

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-14-2006, 08:04 PM:

I don't know anything about their corporate policy, but the green bands seem to be awfully LONG... especially once you've looked at 2 or 3 trailers. You can hear people groaning after awhile, and some can even make short cell-phone calls while the band is on the screen! [Razz]

Posted by Robert Burtcher (Member # 3227) on 07-15-2006, 03:04 AM:

Cutting off the green band is also Dickinson's corporate policy, as far as I am aware. It's certainly location policy.

Even though we're now running the "Open Season" policy, I still re-attach the attached trailer when shipping a film out. It came to me that way... Why shouldn't I return it the way I got it?

Posted by Chris Unwin (Member # 3792) on 07-17-2006, 05:04 AM:

Armin,

Over here in vancouver B.C. we return the first run prints to the film exchange (Technicolour or Deluxe) as they came to us. The reason for this is that the film exchange usualy puts the trailers on for us so we will let them remove them if they wish to do so before they send it out again. Remember.....even though it is our sworn duty as projectionists to protect that film it is still thier job to inspect it before shipping it out again!!

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-17-2006, 06:57 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
You might want to check your contracts before putting ideas into people's heads, as anything physically attached is considered part of the movie and must be played.

Can't be literally *anything*, surely, if you took that literally you'd have to show the leader. I've never seen a print with an attached trailer; whether they don't exist over here, or a previous theatre has removed them I don't know, because I never run new prints.

I suppose that it's the equivilent of the trailers before the feature on some DVDs that you can't bypass. Seems like a really stupid idea though, over here theatres run the trailers for the films they're running the next week, or occasionally two weeks ahead, not the ones for whichever films the studios care to attach to the prints, and which the theatre may well not be showing.

I haven't seen the contracts you have over there; over here from memory I think the requirement was to show the entire film, including the BBFC (British Board of Film Classification) certificate and credits, but I don't remember any mention of attached material, probably because nothing is normally attached. About the only exception I can think of is the odd 'family' type film which has an attached short; the last one I had was the 'Madagascar Penguins in a Christmas Caper' thing that was attached to the Wallace and grommit film last year. I'm not sure if it is a requirement to show these.

You are allowed, and required, to remove certain advertisments (usually alcohol related ones) from the reel when shown with films of certain certificates, but in this case the certificate of exhibition which is returned with the reel has to be amended to this effect.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 07-17-2006, 12:14 PM:

Until I closed my cinema in 2002, nearly every release had an attached trailer, but it was for product far in advance of being scheduled for release, therefore it was unlikely that the said trailer would clash with your own trailer reel. I always used to remove any attached trailer, however I was questioned once by one distributor who was extremely annoyed that I did this to one of their films. To the best of my knowledge the major circuits always screened attached trailers.

I never did see in any contract a proviso for screening an attached trailer. However “Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace” (1999) was an exception, as Fox had it written into the contract to screen an attached trailer showreel before the feature!

I spent a couple of afternoons recently at a multiplex doing some training on platters for the purpose of doing emergency relief cover. I will find out what the position is now on showing attached trailers. I believe Orange mobile phone ads are now usually screened before the main film.

Stephen: I suspect any attached trailers have been removed before your 2nd run screenings if there is a splice after the leader!

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 07-18-2006, 05:32 PM:

Trailer madness...

The Phantom Menace specified no more than eight (?) minutes of trailers and no "commercials." We got a lot of specially edited trailers lasting about 60sec each with instructions that they were intended to play with Episode I.

I once worked for a theatre that did not show trailers. None. Period. Nice.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 07-18-2006, 06:48 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
I once worked for a theatre that did not show trailers. None. Period. Nice.

So did I. I also worked in a couple sub-run places that you only had to show the attached trailer unless:

-The movie advertised had already played at the theatre

-The trailer was 'dated'

-Aaron

Posted by Jarrad Salmon (Member # 3818) on 07-22-2006, 05:10 AM:

quote: Manny Knowles
Trailer madness...

The Phantom Menace specified no more than eight (?) minutes of trailers and no "commercials." We got a lot of specially edited trailers lasting about 60sec each with instructions that they were intended to play with Episode I.

I once worked for a theatre that did not show trailers. None. Period. Nice.

I long for the day... I work at one of the biggest cinemas in my country, the bigger movies push the limit of 20mins of slides/ads/trailers.

To get back to topic, we have a strict running order of slides, ads and trailers. This order changes from week to week, so we remove attached trailers and only put them in if they are booked in. They also return with the print after breakdown.

Posted by Diane Linton (Member # 3711) on 07-22-2006, 09:02 AM:

We run the attached trailers and send them back that way.

I think on my first breakdown by myself I accidently cut off the attached trailer, but I didn't know at that time that trailers were attached. So I was kinda confused not running into a splice, and there being a trailer. Duh me!