Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Silent Format Orientation?

This is topic Silent Format Orientation? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008166

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-24-2006, 09:27 AM:

Just to refresh my memory, when a silent format film (no sound track/full frame) has one of those polished emulsions that are nearly impossible to tell which side is base and which is emulsion without scratching it, and you don't trust the leaders because they are spliced, and you don't trust that wet finger test (which never worked for me anyway....I must have strange spit or something), the rule is:

Looking at the film as it enters the gate as the lens sees it, the image should be UPSIDE DOWN and MIRROR, correct? Somehow I am not sure about the mirror thing.

Just want to be absolutely sure. I got a print in that has leaders taped on and even though they are sound leaders, they also don't have an ID frame because they are not originals, so the soundtrack on the leader is of no help. I am going to tackle this on Wednesday and just want a memory jolt. Thanks.

Why am I paranoid? because I once got a silent print that had a splice in it that was a perfectly good splice except for that fact that it reversed the orientation and badabing badaboom, all the intertitles after that were reversed on the screen. The audience could hear me curse from the booth five stories up.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-24-2006, 09:54 AM:

Hold the film so that it reads correctly; rotate it 180 degrees, keeping the same side, it should be the emulsion side for 35 or 70mm, towards you. That's the way the film goes into the projector, with the side that was facing you towards the lamp. In other words, top becomes bottom, and left becomes right. About the only exception is direct rear projection, without a mirror.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2006, 10:49 AM:

Normal 35mm print film orientation is that the image reads correctly through the emulsion side. So the emulsion normally faces the lamp during projection. Of course the image is upside-down in the projector gate.

A camera original (e.g., 16mm reversal film) reads correctly through the base side, and the emulsion faces the lens during projection.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-24-2006, 01:45 PM:

Another easy way is to look at the image itself coming off of the reel.

With holding the reel higher than the film coming out of the roll heading downward and looking straight at the image: If the image is upside down - heads. Image right side up-Tails.

-Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-24-2006, 06:33 PM:

Geeze Monte you misread the question...he was concerned about emulsion vs base when you don't trust your eyes to tell which side is which nor your spit.

I think Frank has heads and tails mastered.

Frank...don't use spit on a finger...get more gross but it works...wet your lips and mash them down on the edge of the film (normal lip closing pressure is fine, no external force or exaggeration is needed) (not on a piece that will be projected...like the leader)....when you open your mouth...the lip that the film sticks to is the emulsion side.

[ 07-25-2006, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-24-2006, 11:58 PM:

Thanks guys. Steve....AWEsome cool trick!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-25-2006, 04:52 AM:

Granted, I agree, Steve, what you came across with, but doing the spit/lip test is one trick that I never done in finding which side is the emulsion.

I was just helping out a little to make the find easier with looking at the film itself.

thx...Monte

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-25-2006, 09:05 AM:

Didn't your mom ever tell you you don't where the film has been?

Putting film in your mouth is gross.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 07-25-2006, 09:57 AM:

Were there any standard edge markings that were used back then, rather like Keycode today?

I haven't handled much silent film material so would be interested to know if there are other ways than the "lip test", etc.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-25-2006, 10:20 AM:

The only edge markings I know of from that far back which could be used to determine the orientation were on Vitaphone prints, which had a footage number between the perforations on one side every 16 frames. This was so that if any footage was lost in an accident, it was reasonably easy to replace it with the same length of opaque spacing so that the picture didn't lose sync with the disc sound.

Surely it shouldn't be neccesary to start sucking films to establish which is the emulsion side - just as long as you can find a title (shouldn't be too difficult, given that silent films have intertitles) and orient that correctly - as others have said, text the right way round facing the lamp and pointing downwards - you should be sorted.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-25-2006, 10:30 AM:

Sam, Oh I suppose now you are going to say it isn't okay to measure the voltage on asbestoes cables by just jabbing the test probes through the insulation! (especially when the insulation is wet).

Yes, I did warn it was gross (with unique spelling...now corrected) but it is absolutely effective. Then again, aren't most projection booths and projectors sterile environments?

Steve

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 07-25-2006, 11:34 AM:

Not around here! [Big Grin]

Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 07-25-2006, 02:25 PM:

Not only Gross but, doing the lip test with a Movie that's a stinker you might just wake up with an awful Film in your mouth! [Eek!]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-25-2006, 03:24 PM:

How about having a good suck at an original tinted and toned print, with a uranium sulphate dye for the yellow? Then you'd get a good hit of nitric acid from the base and you'd end up being radioactive! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-25-2006, 03:37 PM:

Processed film stock usually has a slight amount of "positive" curl at lower humidities, as the gelatin emulsion shrinks a bit more than the plastic base as the film dries out. Blowing warm air from a hair dryer at the film will accentuate the curl, with the emulsion side at the bottom of the cupping.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-25-2006, 04:13 PM:

Guttag likes the cheesy taste of film [Big Grin]

I done the same loading film magazines in a darkroom [Cool]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-25-2006, 09:42 PM:

mmmmmmmmm ffffiiiiiiillllllllmmmmm.

Posted by Tommie Evans (Member # 2674) on 07-26-2006, 04:40 PM:

Guys, there is a much easier way to tell the difference between base and emulsion. Breath on the film slightly as if you are steaming up a mirror. Your breath will condensate on the base side (you will see it on the surface) and fail to condensate on the emulsion side. This works with no negative effects to both film or handler. I can't remember the last time I tried it on acetate but I think it works just the same?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-27-2006, 08:29 AM:

Blowing moist breath on the film works most of the time, but I sometimes find the difference between base and emulsion side to be too subtle to be reliable. Probably influenced by the temperature of the film, which would have to be below the dew point of warm breath.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 2038) on 07-27-2006, 01:39 PM:

Not very scientific, but if you have a good work lamp and good eyes and you angle the film slightly back and forth so the light reflects from it, you can see different "levels" of emulsion, little ridges and edges and such, and the emulsion side is usually "semi-gloss" rather than "high-gloss" on the film side.

Or do the bottom lip drag test, it worked for us back in the good ol' days.

Posted by Richard P. May (Member # 3598) on 07-27-2006, 01:48 PM:

How about scratching a small spot in the leader, way before it could have any damaging effect? Pretty simple, and absolute results.

RPM

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-27-2006, 03:29 PM:

quote: Gary Crawford
Not very scientific, but if you have a good work lamp and good eyes and you angle the film slightly back and forth so the light reflects from it, you can see different "levels" of emulsion, little ridges and edges and such, and the emulsion side is usually "semi-gloss" rather than "high-gloss" on the film side.

The "relief image" on the emulsion was very obvious in the days of the old ECP process used prior to the early 1980's (dichromate bleach), as the bleach had a "tanning" effect on the gelatin emulsion that was dependent on the density being developed. The relief image is much more subtle on modern print films.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-28-2006, 01:56 AM:

yet, good eyes can see the relief impressions on a emulsion side to where none can be seen on the base side..if you hold it to the light just right and get the reflection to work your way ..

-Monte

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-30-2006, 01:15 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Yes, I did warn it was gross

I always preferred the taste of Dolby tone over Buzz Track. [Razz]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-01-2006, 05:16 PM:

RP-40, fafa beans and a good Chianti for me... [Razz]