Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital sound fixes

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Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 08-06-2006, 07:56 PM:

We all bitch about our problems with digital sound. All formats have issues and all formats have champions. Can anything be done about it?

SDDS
Sony doesn’t support the system so is there any point in our support?

Dolby Digital
FilmGuard will preserve but it can’t be expected to repair a track that is constantly F.

Would it help if Dolby copied the one good Sony idea and had a duplicate track on the opposite side? Or would it suffer simultaneous destruction? Dolby could sell a whole new line of penthouses/basement readers.

As we mostly show second run, this is a real problem for us. I like SRD when it works. The first run of a used print is always nerve-wracking and it is such a relief when it all works. It all depends on where the print came from. Some well-used prints work and some almost new prints fail – on some or all spools.

Also, whose fault is it that the digi doesn’t default cleanly? The “I got it, I ain’t got it” routine was funny when Mel Brooks did it but I don’t laugh when SRD does it. On the rare occasions that DTS defaults, it does a clean break to analog, then picks up again when the stream is clear. Perhaps there is a fix in Dolby’s software.

However, we do get to hear what our SR sounds like when the digital light gets switched off. We forget how nice it can be.

(Aside: I never lost audio from a mag track, though I was told that it was common … geez I loved 4 track mag!)

DTS
We responded to DTS’s query about packaging and we have only had one scratched disc since. I did once receive discs in a spool-shaped pack and that was neat. The point is that a DTS rep followed up with me.

I agree with the main criticism of DTS, poor supply. Again, this is not the fault of DTS. Some film distributors supply discs without fail. Others never ever supply.

Note to DTS: don’t let distributors distribute your product. How about setting up a service where, as soon as a location books in a title (or titles) they e-mail a DTS agent who express-posts discs to that location. The cinema could mail them back after their season. Our mail service is reliable now.

That way, cinemas that don’t run DTS don’t get discs, as happens now. I had occasion to collect a print from a multi and saw a mountain of discs in the corner. None of their screens had DTS players.

Those who speak fluent Dolby could speak to Dolby and those who speak DTS could speak to DTS.

Let’s get the problems solved. We aren’t all abandoning film yet.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-06-2006, 08:14 PM:

I do not understand the srd problems people have. We use a test loop in our shop to set up Dolby Digital. It is 50 ft long, drags on the floor, gets full of oil and grit. We wipe it off and keep going. We probably have 250 hours on it.

There must be problems with prints or on equipment set up. Error rate is 4, which is good for a loop. Louis

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-06-2006, 10:51 PM:

I don't think there is much of any point in trying to improve SDDS, Dolby Digital and DTS. Those lossy systems are going to be replaced in a lot of theaters by the uncompressed LPCM 5.1 audio that comes with digital cinema. 2048 columns of pixels isn't really better than 35mm projection. But the audio end of D-Cinema does boast superior quality.

Digital surround audio for film projection is still a very necessary thing, but it needs to evolve beyond the existing lossy systems that are now 13 and 14 years old. DVD-R discs and hard discs can both allow for uncompressed or lossless compressed audio. Digital sound printed on film is at least obsolescent if not outright obsolete.

I think movie studios and DTS must work on a better method of getting dual system audio to theaters. The CDs still need to be shipped to most theaters. But ones who can't seem to get the discs need to be able to download the audio from a secure server and then either burn the disc images to CD-R, DVD-R or store the data on a DTS XD-10 hard drive. This sort of thing should have been available years ago when DSL connections started to fluorish.

Dolby seems more vested in digital cinema. I may be wrong, but I have the impression Dolby Digital on 35mm film is as good as it will ever get. I have doubts Dolby will come up with a way to have their higher bitrate Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True HD formats accompany a 35mm film showing. They would have to come up with some kind of new time code reader, or use a Dolby Digital reader and the 35mm print data as a means to synch audio on a next generation system. As I said, I strongly doubt they'll ever do that.

SDDS? Sony's cinema efforts are all behind getting that 4K projection system launched. SDDS may limp on a couple or so more years. But once enough digital projection installs happen longtime supporters of the format such as Warner Bros. may drop SDDS off of release prints.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-06-2006, 10:54 PM:

My understanding is that Dolby does hold the license on the area between other sprocket holes as well, so they could put backup info there, or more tracks, or more bits for the same tracks, or whatever. Lossless sound would be wonderful. Another thing that would be wonderful would be for them to fix the annoying and retarded warbling problem with the CP650. I've brought this up over and over again, and it never gets fixed.

The other day, we started training a new booth guy who had some previous booth experience from another theater. When we told him NOT to run the Dolby, and showed him why, he said, "Yeah, ours made that bouncing sound too at the end of the movie. We never knew what was causing it." Yet another CP650 that warbles. Imagine that. Sooner or later Dolby will fix this problem. Maybe. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-06-2006, 10:55 PM:

When you preview a new film is is many times wise to also listen to the analog track which in a number of cases is actually superior to the digital track. Good analog SR can be quite amazing when done right.
I'm not one to think of the SR analog track as necessarily just a backup to todays digital tracks... it IS sometimes superior.

quote: Ron Curran
Those who speak fluent Dolby could speak to Dolby and those who speak DTS could speak to DTS.

Typically Dolby will speak back but DTS..... I won't even go there.

Mark

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-06-2006, 11:07 PM:

Dolby SR magnetic tracks on 70mm can be superior to SRD, DTS and SDDS. But I'm not sold on SR optical being better. I will say some films don't really use the 5.1 format very well, in which case they may not sound much different from SR optical.

Uncompressed or lossless compressed 5.1 LPCM at 20-bit to 24-bit levels will be the new standard for movie theaters. Even home theater stuff is moving to it. A number of Blu-Ray titles have LPCM 5.1 audio.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 08-07-2006, 03:41 AM:

"Typically Dolby will speak back but DTS..... I won't even go there"

Mark, I've had exactly the opposite experience. All that this proves is that INDIVIDUALS can make a difference. Dolby doesn't answer us but converses openly with you. DTS ignores you but speaks to us.

IMHO both companies are trying to do the right thing but there are weak links.

This is why I opened this thread. We are not here to bash either company but to make their products work as their designers intended.

Bobby, I am excited at the possibility of DTS working even better. What should we do to make it happen?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-07-2006, 11:53 AM:

I have never had an issue of getting information from any of the cinema processor manufacturers
Dolby DTS Smart and UltraStereo have always provided any information I have needed promptly

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 08-07-2006, 01:35 PM:

I like the idea of DTS supplying discs directly to the theaters to overcome the imcompetence of distributors, but I can imagine that DTS doesn't want to be a logistics company as well as a technology supplier. Setting up a system like Netflix, but for DTS discs, would be an interesting solution to the problem that some theaters have with not getting discs.

However, in this day and age, mailing discs back and forth is unnecessary. The XD10 has an ethernet port on the back of it. If DTS wanted to, the XD10 could be downloading the disc images it needed across the Internet. The knee-jerk response is that "Oh the Internet is too insecure, what about the pirates! Arr!" but the technology exists to transport files securely.

Either solution would most likely solve the problem of getting discs, but the problem either isn't widespread enough to be worth the effort, or someone isn't paying attention to their customers after the sale.

In regards to SDDS, it's a non-issue here in the Wisconsin area. Only one theater within 100-200 miles of Milwaukee has an SDDS installation.

Dolby Digital issues have subsided quite a bit around here. I don't hear too many reel change hiccups any longer, with only pre-credits dropouts being the norm.

I think Bobby is right. The problems these formats have are probably never going to get fixed. If someone in a position to do something was going to do it, they would have done it by now. Digital Cinema is going to make these problems obsolete (by creating issues of their own, no doubt), and it will serve as yet another reason to make the switch.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-07-2006, 02:34 PM:

I still don't understand how this many people have SRD problems. They are non-existant here on over 100 screens. Louis

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-07-2006, 02:52 PM:

Louis,

Do you have any CP650s with penthouse readers? If so, do they warble when you run a digital dolby tone through them? Every one that I have seen does.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 08-07-2006, 05:08 PM:

quote: Scott Jentsch
I don't hear too many reel change hiccups any longer, with only pre-credits dropouts being the norm.

This is probably due to the caching system implemented years ago. Throughout each reel, the processor stores a duplicate of the data just before then end and just after the beginning of each reel. This data is used if the splice causes an interruption. Pre-credit is probably a situation of the cue being placed over the data.

I assume the reason that Dolby never used the other side of the film was due to the cost of the reader and additional video processing. The fact that it runs at 320 kbps when the maximum AC-3 bitrate is exactly double (640 kbps) tells me that originally they planned on using both sides and running at 640 kbps but decided that the difference in quality wasn't worth the several thousand more the system would cost. Remember, back then a DA-10 with reader was like $20,000. It wasn't until 1994 with the "Lion King" special and the DA-20 that the price became somewhat reasonable.

I don't think that Dolby ever foresaw the age of "All screens digital" in a complex. I specifically remember early marketing materials talking about "Dolby Stereo Digital" for flagship screens and "Dolby Stereo SR" for everything else.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-07-2006, 05:20 PM:

The "other" side could never have been planned for Dolby releases. The optical camera and printers only illuminate one side; that is why dts & dolby utilized the area just adjacent to the soundtrack. This is why the sdds camera is a "penthouse" arrangement and is not actually part of the Westrex camera itself. Louis

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-07-2006, 06:42 PM:

quote: Lyle Romer
I assume the reason that Dolby never used the other side of the film was due to the cost of the reader and additional video processing. The fact that it runs at 320 kbps when the maximum AC-3 bitrate is exactly double (640 kbps) tells me that originally they planned on using both sides and running at 640 kbps but decided that the difference in quality wasn't worth the several thousand more the system would cost.

Dolby Labs chose the 320kb/s bitrate as a means of acknowledging the limits of high speed 35mm film print production in 1992. You can reduce a square tile of digital bitmap data down to only so small a size and have it print reliably. Further, the CCD imagers in the film readers at that time were only so fast. Dolby felt the 320kb/s setting had the right balance of getting the audio to a good enough quality level while keeping the data spot at a big enough size.

Total data amount in a 35mm SRD track is about 550 kilobits per second. The extra data above that 320kb/s level is used for error correction. Dolby Digital performance in movie theaters improved with introduction of newer readers as well as improvements being made in print production.

Some high end theaters, such as the Northpark 1-2 in Dallas, were able to get reliable performance out of the older Dolby Digital systems because of higher standards in print handling and projection. I watched quite a few Dolby Digital shows in the early to mid 1990s that had reel change drop outs. But I don't recall noticing that problem at Northpark 1-2. Newer Dolby Digital systems are much more tolerant to "average" film handling practices.

To get back to using the other end of the film strip to double the amount of Dolby Digital data, there's no point in doing it now. At best, you're up to 640kb/s. That's still inferior to the new Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True HD formats, as well as uncompressed Linear PCM 5.1. If Dolby is going to come up with a new generation of Dolby Digital for 35mm film (or other film formats) they'll have to do it by means of a dual system.

quote: Ron Curran
Bobby, I am excited at the possibility of DTS working even better. What should we do to make it happen?

Movie theaters must have the option of downloading CD images. That's the biggest problem for DTS, especially in markets outside the United States. Any theater with a print bearing DTS time code needs to have more than one avenue of getting the discs that go with it, even if they have to burn them to CD-R discs on their own. Further, some movies get little revisions to them. Toy Story 2 had new discs made for the change in outtakes in the end credits. Most theaters in the US received their new 2nd CD. I don't know how well that worked elsewhere.

Many movie theaters are downloading their D-Cinema movies via satellite. An authorized theater downloading a DTS CD image should not be seen by distributors as anything different. It doesn't matter to me if the film distributors would set up their own servers or commission DTS to do it. The ultimate goal should be improving show quality at all theaters playing their product. If a DTS-equipped theater is stuck having to show the movie in optical, then that's a significant problem. It can be solved pretty easily, especially with these new Ethernet equipped DTS-XD10 systems.

The other area where DTS has to improve is providing more avenues of support or ways to upgrade from an older DTS player. I think it's a bad idea to simply discontinue support of certain models, such as the 1993 model DTS-6 with the high dollar SCSI Toshiba CD-ROM drives it boasted. If a theater operator's old DTS system finally gives out after many years of service and then is just an unsupportable door stop, what do you think will happen? That customer may not just order a DTS-XD10 as a replacement. He might order a Dolby CP650 instead.

I'm not exactly sure how DTS can get out of that problem. One idea would be coming up with imaginative ways to "mod" an existing DTS-6 or DTS-6D unit. The system is effectively a rack mount personal computer. It shouldn't be too difficult to change these systems to add more performance and capability.

Long term, DTS has to find ways to stay relevant in commercial movie theaters. I don't know what all they're doing with regard to digital cinema, but they need to form alliances there pretty fast. Dolby is way ahead of them in that regard. I wish DTS could do something to promote 70mm projection on big screens.

Sure, DTS makes a good amount of money in home theater technology. However, a great deal of "legitimacy" as a sound format in home theater is there only by virtue of the same brand name appearing in commercial movie theaters. You see the logo on the movie poster and end credits. In perhaps as little as a year or two, we may see those DTS, Dolby Digital and SDDS logos on posters get replaced with logos for Dolby Digital Cinema, DLP, AccessIT, etc. If DTS is knocked out of that group it can turn into a long term marketing problem for them.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-07-2006, 06:58 PM:

Bobby; Dolby exchanged one new DA-20 for each DA-10 I returned at no charge, not even freight. THAT is customer service.

That is the least I expect from dts. Louis

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-07-2006, 10:55 PM:

When we had a DTS XD-10, it failed when it was one month out of warranty. (Locked up when booting.) DTS still replaced the unit with a new one free of charge....I didn't even have to pay freight, except to send the bad unit back.

When we had a software problem with our Dolby CP650, a couple of phone calls and a quick download had that problem fixed within hours of diagnosis.

So they are both good companies in my admittedly limited experience. If only some stupid film handlers would send the DTS disks back with their prints...

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-07-2006, 10:56 PM:

That might be a tall order for DTS to do straight exchanges, providing new XD-10 units in trade for old DTS-6 and 6D models. The XD-10 has a lot more going on inside of it than the old 6 and 6D models.

But then again, given the fact DTS is making a decent amount of money from consumer electronics AND the number of their install base in commercial theaters is about to take a noticeable plunge, they're going to need to do something pretty aggressive. If not, it could cost them in the consumer electronics area.

Carmike Cinemas alone has hundreds of DTS-equipped screens, and nearly all of those players will be removed as the circuit-wide D-Cinema conversion happens. Only a small percentage of Carmike's largest screens will keep film projectors (and some of those have Dolby Digital instead of DTS). Other movie theater chains are considering the D-Cinema plunge. And that will equate to lots more 35mm digital sound processors being removed.

In the end, this could mean fewer DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray movie discs carrying DTS tracks. It could even translate into less hardware support for various DTS formats and less licensing revenue. I can even see this situation making the company a takeover target from a competitor such as Dolby. I think that's absolutely plausible, especially after witnessing surprising acquisitions in other areas (Adobe buys Macromedia, Autodesk buys Alias, AMD buys ATI, etc.). In today's climate I think Coke could buy Pespi and our government would let it happen.

I'm not rooting for the demise or takeover of DTS. But the company is defintely looking at some challenging times ahead.

quote: Mike Blakesley
So they are both good companies in my admittedly limited experience. If only some stupid film handlers would send the DTS disks back with their prints...

All the more reason for DTS to provide means for theaters to download the CD images.

There's probably going to be a lot of 2nd run theaters being able to buy and install used DTS systems for not too much money at all. There may be a glut of used Dolby Digital systems in the market as well.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-08-2006, 01:12 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
I still don't understand how this many people have SRD problems. They are non-existant here on over 100 screens.

You and me both Louis. The format is rock solid with the only exception being in theaters with truly incompetent projectionists. Even theaters with sort-of-but-not-really-very-good projectionists, Dolby is trouble free.

As far as the original question on this thread regarding getting 2nd run prints with a totally destroyed SRD track, reject the print flat out!

Posted by Nick Scott (Member # 2850) on 08-08-2006, 01:52 AM:

I handle alot of 2nd run prints from all over the place some are in good condition some are not so good but i usually dont have a problem with it running in srd.My highest error rate in the last 5 years has been 6 so i dont get whats happening with everyone else's prints and i have had some real shockers.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 08-08-2006, 01:57 AM:

Brad, your solution on damaged prints is ok for mainstream titles.

What choice do you have with a limited release? You've been waiting on a date for 12 weeks. You collect the print from another situation 200 miles away and make it up with an hour to spare before your first screening.

Do you tell your customers to go home because there are no discs and the Dolby Digital track is hunting or do you switch to SR and let them enjoy the film.

Another alternative is to get the title on a hard drive but (IMHO) that is only acceptable if the title did not originate on film.

Some people seem to be blaming the victim. We have a classic case at the moment. A well-used print showing error rates of 2-3. It will stay that way with FilmGuard. And a trailer we have been running analog because it warbles in digi. FilmGuard hasn't helped, nor could it if the info is damaged.

If we get a good print, the error rate never deteriorates, no matter how many screenings.

Dolby does seem to be a little more robust than it used to be, so there might have been some work done behind the scenes.

Downloading DTS is a good concept. Should we make a concerted effort to contact DTS every time discs are not supplied and ask if they can send the data via internet?

About 90% of features are fine but we can't risk false advertising and that can't be helping Dolby or DTS.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-08-2006, 03:58 AM:

You want MY answer? Simple.

"Sorry everyone, but the print of the film we received has a defective digital track and the studio has not made the dts audio discs available to us. As a result, we would like to wholeheartedly apologize and would like to extend free admissions to the movie during this time that we are awaiting a replacement print due to the substandard presentation that we will be performing today. Again, our apologies."

Give it a shot and watch how fast you get a replacment print. If they don't like your solution, tell them to bill the theater who damaged the print for their losses.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 08-08-2006, 05:48 AM:

Ron, perhaps our problem with dolby digital is sydney or australian based, I too have a have had a similar problem but I think it may be location specific ( that place seems to run the gate tension too high), perhaps its the cheap prints now being imported from asia. or perhaps both?

Its nice to know that it isn't a world wide problem

Brads idea would probably boost your candy bar takings [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2006, 08:40 AM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Do you have any CP650s with penthouse readers? If so, do they warble when you run a digital dolby tone through them? Every one that I have seen does.

Mark,

Not a single problem with any 650's we've installed... thats one reason we are switching back to selling them again. You might consider trying the latest software version and see if that helps. I have only had one issue with one unit and that was a software related random re-boot issue.

One issue running SRD that I have had is on older projectors. If there are any worn parts in the film path that might scuff the SRD track than it will be a problem playing back. Of course this is true of any projector... but seems to be more prone on old Motiographs and Cinemecanicca Vic 5's with the stupid curved gate design.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-08-2006, 08:48 AM:

Thanks, Mark. I think I went through this before, but I'll check it again.

What's the latest version?

[ 08-08-2006, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Mark J. Marshall ]

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 08-09-2006, 04:35 AM:

Thanks Mark. The complex that sends me prints with F Dig tracks features vic 5's

Cam

Posted by Nick Scott (Member # 2850) on 08-09-2006, 07:12 PM:

I run a vic 5 and i dont have a problem with the srd track at all. Its a conspiracy i tells ya. [Razz]

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 08-09-2006, 08:27 PM:

yes Nick, but you know how to maintain projectors properly. Not every cinema gets a quality 2nd generation projectionist!

P.S your dads fantastic short 8mm films on the old Sydney single screens and the building of the Original Hoyts Centre would be ideal on the film-tech website [Big Grin]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-10-2006, 03:40 PM:

On the Vic 5, it's especially important to keep the emulsion-side gate rails clean of hardened deposits that can abrade the film. Be sure the gate is running cool, and not too hot to touch (check position of heat shield behind the gate, and be sure your lamp focus is not overfilling it and heating the gate so hot that you cannot touch it).

As with any projector, use the lowest gate tension that maintains a steady image. Proper film lubrication (SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151) greatly reduces projector abrasion of the perforation and edge areas of the print. Keep humidity in the projection room near 50%RH --- really damp conditions can make the gelatin emulsion get sticky and soft.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-10-2006, 10:29 PM:

Ok, here's a semi-related question. Its only semi related, but I don't think it deserves it's own topic. I'm trying to get DTS trailers, trailer CDs, posters, plaques, etc. I called DTS, and talked to a real person, told them what I needed. They forwarded me to an answering system that told me to give my theatre name, adress, etc, and it'd be added to "the list". I haven't heard back from them, nor received anything in the mail. What is this list? When will I hear/receive something? And will this list get me all of the above, or information or what?

Also, I've been trying to get a Dolby stereo trailer for our 2 Analog houses, and in the even we have an analog only movie (Night Listener). I've called Dobly, the operator forwarded me to a lady's voicemail, I've left a message with my name, theatre name, and number and my cell number. Should I call again, or do they typically call back, and how long?

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 08-10-2006, 10:53 PM:

Try this form for Dolby trailers:

Dolby Trailer Order Form

Remember that technically you can only use a "Dolby" trailer if your processor is a Dolby processor.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-10-2006, 11:30 PM:

For what it's worth -- I filled out and mailed one of those the day we installed our CP650. I have yet to receive anything. I called our friendly dealer and they apparently were going to try to light a fire under somebody -- but still nothing. We haven't gotten any marquee slides or anything else either. It's been 6 months and I'm getting sick of the "train" trailer, which came with the unit, but I wait patiently.

As for DTS's "list" -- that's probably the mailing list for the trailer disks. If you email Karen H. (assuming she still works there) she will mail the posters, trailers etc. to you.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-11-2006, 01:06 AM:

For Dolby, I'll try the form. For DTS, I'd like to have an email addy. Since I've started working there, we've had no sound format promotional materials. No trailers, no posters, no marquee inserts, no mylars, no plaques, nothing. Even the newpaper ad doesn't show the sound format, just has "Dig." on the digital houses plus one that's not. And the only DTS trailer discs is only one, that we borrow from the other house which only has 1 DTS screen and gets like 2 or 3 discs. But we have 4 DTS houses, though I did find out our DTS units will read RWs. Not going to say more on that. I would like to mention to anyone from DTS, I'm trying to get real honest discs from you. But anyhow, the email?

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 08-11-2006, 01:30 AM:

If Karen Hultgren still works there her address is:

...deleted because it is rude and against site policies to post people's email addresses here so they can be pickedup by spambots to flood her email with spam

I only post it publicly becuase she used to post it in all of her messages when she was active here.

[ 08-11-2006, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-11-2006, 05:19 AM:

Charles, do you still work for a Carmike theatre?

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-11-2006, 09:38 AM:

Negative, I work for Regal now. Though I still do keep touch with a couple of buddies at Carmike. If I'm suspecting corretly, you're maybe about to suggest I go through Carmike to aquire those materials? You would be correct. Carmike submits the reqests for its theatres up to their full allowance by THX, DTS, Dolby, etc, and stockpiles it until a theatre requests the materials. However, I think regal just has their theatres order direct.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-11-2006, 04:04 PM:

Well, yeah, that and if you were a Carmiker I would have sent you some we have laying around the booth [Smile]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-13-2006, 02:50 PM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
My understanding is that Dolby does hold the license on the area between other sprocket holes as well

Mark, I've heard this, too. What I don't understand is, just WHO is the almighty one granting title to film stock real estate!?

[Razz]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-13-2006, 03:01 PM:

Actually it is a patent on placing data and information inbetween the perferations that they hold

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-13-2006, 03:45 PM:

I thought it was something like that, Gordon, thanks.

Other than their particular method of placing data (i.e., the little blocks of "snow"), I wouldn't think a stake could be claimed on something like a particular area of the film. I don't see how that could be patentable. I mean, how can anyone "own" 35mm film, it's dimensioning, or layout? No one has those rights to confer.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-13-2006, 04:41 PM:

Ah but it is more than lettle blocks of snow...think about it compared to all other forms of digital on film...Dolby is the sole one that has has it start/stop and uses the perforation to set its WTW level. So the perforation thing can directly or indirectly (by merely patenting a digital reading method by using blocks of data that need to be reassembled) kinda give it all to Dolby. The perforations merely facilitate their system.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-15-2006, 08:43 AM:

Tim, I think of it something like this... If you license Dolby Digital for your movie (who wouldn't), then they require through their license (and thusly "tie up") the area in between the sprockets on both sides of the film, even though they aren't using both sides. By doing that, they make sure you can't also license another system that requires the area on the other side if you're licensing their system on your film.

Posted by Patrick de Groot (Member # 858) on 08-16-2006, 03:50 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
Actually it is a patent on placing data and information inbetween the perferations that they hold

Ah, the American Patent System. Woohoo! Well, you can always find worse examples of patents in the software area.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-18-2006, 11:12 AM:

Steve and Mark: Yes, perforations are integral to the system, as covered in their patent, I'm sure, but that still doesn't explain to me how they can claim exclusive rights to film real estate. What I'm saying is, the area between the sprocket holes is not theirs to "own" - nor no one else's to give away - if you get my point.

For example, let's say I print DD films at my lab (being the good, full-service lab that I am), but I want to print smiley faces in that area of non-DD films, to show that the prints came from Happy Labs. I don't see how a patent can confer the right to Dolby to say that I couldn't do that -- and have it stand up in court.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-18-2006, 03:03 PM:

Actually I believe they patent claim is for "information placed between the sprocket holes"
whether it be digital data or smiley faces I think it is classed as information
I know that several labs wanted to place printer and negative information there (for post lab quality control) and were told that it would require a royalty to dolby to put information there

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-18-2006, 05:02 PM:

No Gord, Tim is right on that...Dolby doesn't control the real estate, just the method of encoding the digital audio there.

There are "tick" marks in that area...Agfa printed their name in that area.

Those that felt the need to place information between the perfs or on the edges have gone to printing only on the magenta layer so as to be invisible to digital readers of the particular formats.

Steve

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-19-2006, 03:45 AM:

Well, status report so far. Followed your recommendation, Lyle, and emailed her and she was nice and forwarded me to the proper place. Following her recommendation I sent an email to DTS's main customer service email, stating how many DTS houses I had, how many posters I'd need, and that I'd need plaques, trailers and all, the whole smash. Gave them adress, and contact info, both personal cell AND the office line. So far nothing. No email, no calls, no materials. As far as the trailer CDs, nothing on them either since I left our info on their messaging service. Now on to Dolby, I've called 3 times, and been forwarded to their promotional materials person's voicemail. Never got ahold of her personally. Left messages stating what I needed and the number of houses with Dolby processors, and my contact info. There again, nothing, no call back or anything. I am still waiting, though I will still mail in the Dolby form in addition to the calls. Worse case, I end up with too many dobly trailers, is that even possible? [Cool]

Both Dolby and DTS don't really seem to want to advertise their brands in a theatre looking to prominently display them. You'd think they'd want to sign us up more than a crack dealer wants to sign up the neighborhood kids. Thanks for the promt customer service Dolby and DTS. [fu]

[ 08-20-2006, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Charles Greenlee ]

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-19-2006, 04:09 AM:

Perhaps your chain has already requested their alloted amount of free material from Dolby and DTS and now you aren't being sent stuff because they're not authorized to bill you? Just a guess, I don't know how Regal handles this sort of thing.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-19-2006, 12:40 PM:

Sad thing is, me neither. [Frown]

Not yet at least, I'm still learning the "How things are done here" part. Being and ex-Carmike employee and changing over to Regal takes some getting used to.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 08-22-2006, 11:25 AM:

Hi Charles,

Please give me a call at DTS @ 818-706-3525.

Thanks,

Dan

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-22-2006, 05:49 PM:

Update: To Daniel, thanks for the help.
To the rest, got our posters and plaques and window clings and trailers, everything except the weekly trailer discs, yesterday. DTS came through there. Haven't heard back from them about the trailer discs. However, as I was logging in to post this update, I read Daneil's email and called him. I let him know that we've received out promo items, but not heard anything back on the discs. He was able to put us in for those.
As far as Dobly goes, nothing yet.

Posted by John McConnel (Member # 2000) on 08-22-2006, 07:20 PM:

As for Dolby, they provide materials promptly to us.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-23-2006, 12:36 AM:

How are you contacting them about the materials? Email? Phone? Mail?

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 09-09-2006, 12:40 AM:

We are running a print of Ten Canoes - 5 spools, Scope, SRD. The print is fine, image and sound excellent. Except that digital does not work on spool 2. Why?
We switch to analog for that spool, adjust the level and reverse the procedure for 3-5.

Posted by Nick Scott (Member # 2850) on 09-09-2006, 01:38 AM:

We are running a 14week old print of ten canoes and our error ratings are 1-3. Where did the print come from ron?

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 09-09-2006, 02:08 AM:

Not sure, Nick. One courier picked it upfrom another cinema and gave it to our courier.
As I said, the image is perfect all through. Error rates are on the high side at 6 for spools 1, 3, 4 and 5 but F on 2.
Trailers on the head have been showing 2 or 3.
Murphy's Law operates - The Lake House is running DTS and the Dolby error rate is 3 throughout (we can run either).

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 09-09-2006, 11:09 PM:

Still have heard nothing from Dolby. And still haven't received our trailer discs. However the poromo materials, and trailers, are working. People already have commented on the "improvement" we did to our sound. I'm thinking, what improvment? You mean the fact that we advertise our sound now? but I just thank them, and let them live thinking we upgraded our sound. BTW, I just recently learned how to calibrate the DTS timecode readers. Or really, I'm just adjusting the LED power level, to produce a 4v signal. Did make a difference on one of our screend, that'd ocassionally lose timecode, but not long enough for the DTS to switch out.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 09-11-2006, 11:07 AM:

Charles,

Your experience is exactly why I don't understand why theaters don't run the digital sound trailers and post the signs by the theater entrances.

By running the trailer, you're drawing attention to the fact that you have something that makes the customer's experience better. You've invested thousands of dollars into the equipment, why not spend the 15 minutes it takes to mount a sign on the wall, and the few minutes it takes to add the trailer to the film?

When I go to a movie, I want to see the digital sound trailer, and if it's a THX screen, I want to hear the deep note, dammit! [Smile]

It's all part of the fun of going to the movies, and it shows that the theater is putting in some effort as well.

It's too bad you're not getting the support you should from the companies involved.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-11-2006, 11:41 AM:

I've had this problem with both companies.

However, in both cases, it seems to be mainly a matter of getting the right person on the right day. Once I reached those people, the materials appeared quickly.

DTS trailer disks were hard to get, because there was a time when DTS and Technicolor both appeared to think the other was supposed to put new shipments into the database. They got that worked out, and we've received the disks reliably ever since.

The plaques weren't a problem, either, and they do draw attention.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 09-12-2006, 02:50 AM:

I notice them, and even though it's gotten lately, like the one ameteur trailer said, "THX. We'll certify anything!" I'd still like to hear the deep note, on those that have been certified. Of course, I'm not like Joe Customer. But I see it like this, if I notice something, there are others that do as well. Not to mention that seeing the plaques, posters, and trailer has a subconscious effect, even if the person doen't really notice.