quote: Mark Gulbrandsen... has those 8 houses ever ran 70mm AND do they know how to run 70mm?
In addition Larry Miller Theaters also has 8 houses that are DP-70 equipped.
quote: Steve GuttagAll of them have 70mm sprockets but may not all be running with them. We have many boxes of combo sprockets at CLACO and changing them is a huge 15 min ordeal . Yes to the second part, there are a number of locations that do run 70mm occasionally and the gate kits are kept at those particluluar theater chain's offices.
Mark...how many of your DP70s have their 70mm sprockets? Are all of the gate parts with matching serial numbers also on hand for all of them?
quote:Okay, I'll ask the obvious question:
Sony... has struck a new 70mm print of "West Side Story."
quote: Tim ReedBecause that's what often happens at the conclusion of a restoration.
Okay, I'll ask the obvious question: Why?
quote: Michael CoateI thought Sony bought MGM last fall...
While holding the rights to the title, Sony did a restoration. The rights, however, have recently reverted back to MGM.
quote: Michael CoateOh, okay. I am somewhat out of touch from being on the road all the time, and had no idea this was the case. As you note, you'd only said a new print had been struck. That could've involved elements of any age.
Because that's what often happens at the conclusion of a restoration.
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quote: Christian AppeltThat's probably why it needed restoration. Striking release prints straight off the camera negative is a guaranteed way to wear them out.
Strange that WEST SIDE STORY should need to be restored. There is a 70mm print struck in 1993 (IIRC) from the original camera negative...
quote: Monte L FullmerThe DTS format is capable of coaxing out just about every nuance of an older mag analog track, such as those from Lawrence of Arabiap or Patton.
Another question could evolve from all of this: Personally, having never heard DTS playback from the 70mm release prints ,how is the DTS playback compared to the 6trk MAG analog version of a particular movie?
quote: Bobby HendersonIt still uses some compression; even if not as severe as Dolby. To my subjective ears DTS tracks lack HF detail compared to the best 70mm mag. The difference to me is like the difference between an average CD played on a £300 domestic sound system and a properly mastered LP played on a £3k turntable connected to an amplifier and speakers you'd need a second mortgage to buy. Then there's the issue of the analogue to digital transfer and how well that's done. Virtually all DVDs of older titles on the supermarket shelves will have 'Digitally remastered' or an equivalent slogan on them, even if what that actually means is that I took a knackered, panned-and-scanned, pink old 16mm print of Lawrence of Arabia and transferred it on an Elmo (I'm still digitally remastering it, right?). The same applies to audio, too: if the bias and gain on the playback head are properly adjusted, the six channels of final mix are properly balanced, etc. etc., I can believe that a DTS copy has the potential to be pretty good. But if they're not, then the technical capabilities on paper of whatever system is being used to encode the digital audio really don't matter. Garbage in = garbage out.
The DTS format is capable of coaxing out just about every nuance of an older mag analog track, such as those from Lawrence of Arabiap or Patton.
quote: Leo Enticknapthat's a title i've seen several times, maybe 5 years ago last time. i don't recall it looking at all bad. i hope some of these prints survive so it can still be seen without the digital mucking.
a new 35mm print of In a Lonely Place a few years ago, the restoration of which was a painstaking and intricate job involving a combination of photochemical and 2k digital restoration.
quote: Steve GuttagCourse, I can see where this statement comes from: from the days of open reel recordings when recording companies were using the old AMPEX 300's and AMPEX 350 series open reel tape machines - just an excellent analog full frequency waveform that was captured and not waveforms that are crunched into "zeros" and "ones"... like Leo's comparison to the turntable cartridge (either moving coil or magnet) and styli (conical or sperical) capturing the wave form from a groove cut into a disc of vinyl.
I personally, prefer the mag sound.
quote: Leo EnticknapI would agree with that judgment -when it comes to late 1980's and early 1990's movies that were mixed with fairly modern equipment and laid down on 70mm with Dolby SR mag. However, when it comes to older movies like Patton or Lawrence of Arabia where the sound design and original mixing technology was a lot more primitive DTS will be good enough.
It still uses some compression; even if not as severe as Dolby. To my subjective ears DTS tracks lack HF detail compared to the best 70mm mag.
quote: Bobby HendersonAhhhhh, not true! Actually the mixing facilities those films were mixed in were not primitave at all and were very high tech even by todays standards. The only thing that really improved in mags last days were the mag heads themselves and the oxides to record on. The last generation of oxides were so good that one really didn't need any noise reduiction at all. Also emember that those mentioned films were 5 channel frontal mixes... not the simple center channel crap being churned out today.
However, when it comes to older movies like Patton or Lawrence of Arabia where the sound design and original mixing technology was a lot more primitive DTS will be good enough.
quote: Bobby HendersonActually you can rerecord the stripes on a 70mm print (assuming that it hasn't been cut and the six-track master of that mix is still available), and this was done a aound 3-4 years ago on three reels of a print of Empire of the Sun which had picked up some magnetic interference on one of the tracks. With the whole print running from a platter (therefore the difference wasn't in the projector) you could hear the difference - the rerecorded tracks had a much better s/n ratio. Admittedly this isn't done very often, though.
Another thing on DTS' side is the dual system approach. Any of those DTS 70mm prints can be paired with new discs or hard drives containing audio in much better quality formats. You cannot do that at all with any sound on film system.
quote: Scott NorwoodScott, is this the same theatre I'm thinking of?
If all goes as planned, there will be a 70mm-capable house in Providence, RI.
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. Goes to show you that if one makes things technical sounding enough for the front office that anything can slide though.quote: Scott NorwoodOMG, Scott! You're amazing! I know you're the one that probably pulled this off, too! Fantastic!
Yup; the machines should be in place fairly soon,
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quote: John PytlakThat's certainly our experience working with newsfilm (usually cut 16mm neg + acetate sepmag) here. It's not uncommon to open up a picture element from the '50s or '60s and fine it in pretty good shape; then open its mag track and the whole room stinks within seconds.
Unfortunately, magnetic oxide could also aggravate "vinegar syndrome" on old triacetate prints (iron is suspected of being a catalyst for the degradation reaction). Very important to store those older prints in a cool, dry, and vented area.
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Damn, now I've worked myself into a rant. Let's change the subject.quote: Frank AngelCannot be done; the timecode is in the same position as one of the inbound stripes, so you'd have to remove that stripe, and loose one track. I'm not sure which channel is carried on that stripe. The DTS track is narrower than the mag stripe, so I suppose that, in theory, it might be possible to apply a very narrow stripe, as was done with 35mm (and 16mm) mag-opt prints, but this has never been done. I don't know if it was ever considered; at least you'd have a wider stripe to start with than on 35mm.
Can mag and DTS live on the same print? I mean, of course they can, but has it ever been done?
quote: Frank AngelYes, but it did not use the space between the sprocket holes; I can't remember where it would have been placed, but in was on a continuous strip of film, not the area between holes. It was a really odd system; the film area was continuous, but the data recording was not, there were four blocks of data to each five-perf frame, with clear film between them, so the data format was exactly the same as on 35mm. I don't know if they ever actually built any equipment and tried it, but the proposal was made that it could be done in the future, if Digital sound on 70mm prints was ever required. Dolby's attitude seemed to be that Dolby Digital sound largely removed the need for 70mm prints (I heard words to this effect from two Dolby staff, but I don't know if it was official company policy). I think it was just an idea to keep on the shelf in case 70mm ever made a major comeback, which they did not expect it to do.
And also, has Dolby ever toyed with the idea of laying down their digital stream on 70mm (I'm cynical enough to imagine they have already patented or whatever they do to lay claim to the spaces in between the sprocket holes). No reason why Dolby couldn't be done other than the cost of getting hardware manufactured....hardware that you KNOW is going to way more expensive than the little DTS reader.
quote: Frank AngelCan they? They can publish details, and patent, the idea of using that space on the film for something, but I doubt they could actually stop somebody putting something else there. I believe their patent does include using the area between the perforations on the non-track edge as well. It would be unwise to do so, as that would make the print incompatible with Dolby Digital sound, but let's say I came up with a system for silent films, where I used that space to record some sort of signal to vary the speed of the projector in different parts of the film. Since it's a silent film there would be no need for a Dolby Digital track. As long as the data I recorded on the film was not using Dolby's format, let's say I just put a single dot, of varying size to indicate varying speed, I doubt that Dolby could stop me. They have defined a standard, as with the position of the analogue track, but I doubt if they actually 'own' it. Dolby were't the first to think of recording a signal using the sace between the perforations; Vitasound recorded a white line in this area to control the gain of amplifiers.
Which leads me to the last question: how does that actually work? How can they claim a certain area on the print as their own?
quote: Frank AngelThe SR-D name seems to have become largely obsolete; they seem to just use the term 'Dolby Digital' now, both on film prints and other media, e.g. DVDs. When the first Laserdiscs were released with Dolby Digital tracks they labeled them 'Dolby AC-3', after the encoding system. Dolby seem to be quite fond of using different names for the same thingin different applications, e.g. the 'Dolby Stereo' Vs. 'Dolby Pro-logic' thing for professional and domestic matrix encoded four channel sound systems.
So while we are asking questions, isn't the SR-D designation mean it's a print that carries Dolby's digital track AND SR analog tracks? So if Dolby were to put it's digital stream on a 70mm print, you wouldn't call it Dolby SR-D, right? It would just be Dolby Digital? or would it?
quote: Frank AngelI remember reading a paper in a SMPTE Journal from the fifties describing the transparency of mag tracks to IR light. Of course the track can't be Cyan.
Can mag and DTS live on the same print?
quote: Stephen FurleyI don't know Stephen....DTS was able to squeezed their miniscule track in the space between the image and the regular analog track on 35mm prints, surely there is at least that much of a septum, probably more, between any of the inside mag tracks and the image or between one of the inside tracks and the sprockets holes, so there would be no need to reduce the mag stripe width at all, at least not by any significant amount -- not like the compromise that was needed for 4trk mag/opt prints (basically needing to cut the optical track in half). I can't imagine DTS can't live in peace with mag on 70mm prints without any major changes in specs.
Cannot be done; the timecode is in the same position as one of the inbound stripes, so you'd have to remove that stripe, and loose one track.
quote: Stephen FurleyThe only reason I say this is because I recall on more than one occasion John P. referring to the space as "Dolby's area" or something to that affect which gave the impression that they had some exclusive rights to it. Although it didn't make much scense to me either. I should have asked him.
Can they? They can publish details, and patent, the idea of using that space on the film for something, but I doubt they could actually stop somebody putting something else there.
quote:Yah, pretty soon they are going to run out of alphabet letters.
Dolby seem to be quite fond of using different names for the same thingin different applications,
And I always thought at AC-3 designation was unnecessarily obtuse and didn't impart any useful information.
quote: Robert ThroopI'm not sure how transparent to infrared the oxide would be; the stripe on film is quite thick, much more so than the coting on magnetic tape. Would it be possible to read a timecode track through the oxide, using an infrared source? Of course, the DTS reader uses red light; at least the 35mm one does, I assume that the 70mm one is the same, so even if it was possible then the readers would have to be modified or replaced, and the 70mm prints would need silver in the DTS tracks; the processing machines would require fitting with the track re-development system which the industry has been trying to get rid of for years.
I remember reading a paper in a SMPTE Journal from the fifties describing the transparency of mag tracks to IR light. Of course the track can't be Cyan.
quote: Frank AngelThe DTS track doesn't need to be very wide, certainly not as wide as it is on 70mm, but putting it very close to the picture isn't desirable, if the plate is slightly over-cut then you see timecode on the masking. Another problem with DTS on 35mm, which wouldn't apply to 70mm, is that the DTS track is also very close to the analogue track. If the soundhead is mis-aligned, or the track is mis-printed, then you can hear timecode. When I ran 'Schlindler's list' we had this problem on just one reel, and had to mask down the slit slightly. Of course, 70mm DTS overdoes it, you don't need as much space between picture and track as this has, nor does the track need to be so wide. Let me re-phrase what I wrote; 70mm magnetic and DTS cannot co-exist, and both be usable**, on the same print, as the systems are currently specified. Of course, you could modify the specification of either, or both, systems to make them compatible. You can do anything you like if you change the specs. If you modified the mag system only then you would need to significantly reduce the width of one of the inboard sripes to uncover the DTS track in its present position; I don't have the figures to hand at the moment to work out by how much. If the existing heads were used on the projectors then the narrow stripe would cause uneven head wear, which in turn could cause problems with 'normal' magnetic prints. The alternative would be to make different head assemblies for each type of print, as was done for 16mm in the '50s - '70s; an expensive option just to play the occasional mag-DTS print.
I don't know Stephen....DTS was able to squeezed their miniscule track in the space between the image and the regular analog track on 35mm prints, surely there is at least that much of a septum, probably more, between any of the inside mag tracks and the image or between one of the inside tracks and the sprockets holes, so there would be no need to reduce the mag stripe width at all, at least not by any significant amount -- not like the compromise that was needed for 4trk mag/opt prints (basically needing to cut the optical track in half). I can't imagine DTS can't live in peace with mag on 70mm prints without any major changes in specs.
.quote: Louis BornwasserYou are very close. Dolby's patent is to expand the data 25% but there is no 5th block. It is printed outside of the perfs but is printed exactly like 35mm dolby digital (except stretched 25%). When read by the reader, it will look exactly the same to the processor as a 35mm print.
Dolby Digital on 70mm? Sure. make each square 25% longer to make the speed the same and program each 5th block to be ignored. Louis
quote: Stephen Furley"Vertigo" ('96 re-issue)? "Lord Jim" ('02 restoration)? "Lawrence Of Arabia" ('02 re-issue)?
I did once see a 70mm print where the DTS code had been striped over; I can't remember the title.
quote: Steve GuttagOne of restoration producers as well as a source at DTS informed me a few years ago while researching another project that only a reel or two of "My Fair Lady" was tested in 70mm-DTS.
My bet is My Fair Lady. That was a transitional film where they experimented with the DTS70 thing...a few test prints were in DTS but the bulk were Mag. Vertigo were all DTS.
quote: Stephen FurleyHere's a link to a list of the 70mm-DTS titles.
It was something where I went up to the box after the show. I have seen 'My Fair Lady' on 70mm, and I think it was a new print, but it was a long time ago; when was DTS introduced on 70mm?
quote:
My Fair Lady
12.09.1994
Ziegfeld, NYC
Super Panavision 70. Restored version. Shown generally i 70mm magnetic and in 35mm DTS and Dolby Digital. 70mm DTS was test.
Independence Day
19.09.1996
Spektrum, Oslo, Norway
Super 35
Vertigo
04.10.1996
Ziegfeld, NYC
VistaVision. Restored version
Star Wars
22.03.1997
Spektrum, Oslo, Norway
Anamorphic. The 70mm print was shown two days and returned to Lucas Film.
The Lost World
12.09.1997
Spektrum, Oslo, Norway
35mm widescreen image was blown up to full frame 70mm
Titanic
17.12.1997
Manns Chinese, Hollywood
Super 35. At least 12 70mm prints were struck at DeLuxe
Tomorrow Never Dies
19.12.1997
Spektrum, Oslo, Norway
Anamorphic. Nobody does it better in 70mm DTS!
Mulan
05.06.1998
Hollywood Bowl
Widescreen. Not generally released in 70mm DTS
Armageddon
17.07.1998
Spektrum, Oslo, Norway
Also opened August 5, in London in 70mm DTS
Godzilla
18.09.1998
Spektrum, Oslo, Norway
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A Trip To Mars (S)
17.04.1999.
Todd-AO, Stage A
30 frames per second SimEx special venue film
Mercedes Car Commercial
June 1999
Screened in 70mm DTS at URC in Stuttgart
Video to 70mm. Public performance not known.
CineSpace 70
1999
Todd-AO, Stage A
CineSpace 70 Todd-AO. 30 frames per second
Blackadder Back & Forth
01.01.2000
Millenium Dome, London, England
Super 35
The Good Ship Citizen
01.01.2000
Millenium Dome, London, England
Running time 3 - 5 minutes
Reach for the Sky May 2000 Millenium Dome, London, England Advert. Running time 3 minutes
Advert for Blackadder Back & Forth May 2000 Millenium Dome, London, England Comic Relief ad showing "Baldrick" promoting the book on the making of "Blackadder Back & Forth". Running time: 30 seconds
Dinosaur 12.11.2000 Siebu Dome outside Tokyo, Japan Just one 70mm print, one performance and a DP75
Fanny´s Wedding xx.xx.2000 France Short subject
Pearl Harbour 21.06.2001 Siebu Dome outside Tokyo, Japan Just one 70mm print, one performance and a DP75 in 8 (eight) channel 70mm DTS.
Patton 16.11.2001 Samuel Goldwyn Theatre, LA, CA, USA
Playtime 19.05.2002 Palais de Festival, Cannes, France Released theatrically July 3, 2002.
Lawrence of Arabia 20.09.2002 Cinerama Dome, LA, USA
Hello, Dolly! 26.08.2002 Samuel Goldwyn Theatre, LA, CA, USA
Lord Jim 26.08.2002 Samuel Goldwyn Theatre, LA, CA, USA
The Sound of Music 21.03.2003 Egyptian Theatre, Hollywood, USA
It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World 16.10.2003 The Cinerama Dome, Hollywood, USA
A Year Along the Abandoned Road 2003 - New 2003 70mm prints of the 1989 title. Lab: Gullivier, France.
Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines 2004
The Agony and the Ecstacy 2005
Doctor Dollittle 2005
The Miracle of Todd-AO 2005
To Be Alive 2005
South Pacific 11.03.2006 Pictureville, UK
The March of Todd-AO 11.03.2006 Pictureville, UK
Cleopatra 15.05.2006
STAR! 2006
quote:Can't remember if this has been mentioned recently but the positioning of the DTS track on the ID4 print was different to all subsequent titles.
Independence Day
19.09.1996
Spektrum, Oslo, Norway
Super 35
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quote:This is not true. I was sent to Oslo for the ID4 screening and met with Hector from the DTS U.K. office. This print did not have special timecode (positioning). As I recall we had a reel or two that blinked a bit but the real problem was issues with the timecode heads themselves, which we corrected on site.
Dick Vaughan
Can’t remember if this has been mentioned recently but the positioning of the DTS track on the ID4 print was different to all subsequent titles.
It has been 1603 days since the last post.