Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Strong Power Supply Problems!!!

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Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 08-19-2006, 12:35 AM:

Hi Guys and Gals,

I am having problems with my 1983 Single Phase, Strong Power Supply. Friday night, when I turned it on, the bulb lighted Okay, but the power supply did a lot of screaming, almost sounding like a siren going off. But, my guess would be dancing contact points. After about 60 to 90 seconds it settled down to a hum and we were able to stay on the screen.

After the movie was over, I turned the bulb off for about 5 mintues and restruck it again and again the loud siren type of noise came about.

After shutting the breaker down, I opened the side panel. Looked like some squirls many have been in there at some point, the largest of the two transformers was very hot to the touch. Thats about all that I know at this point.

Can anyone give me some idea as to what is going on here. Thanks in advance for any help!

Holiday Drive In Theater
Steve Wilson
Paoli, IN
Home of Ski Paoli Peaks
Ph# 812-723-2345 24/7

"Be there, when the Stars come out Tonight!"

Posted by Justin West (Member # 920) on 08-19-2006, 12:51 AM:

Steve: Have you checked the muffin fan? and, while you're at it...how about putting some plastic sheeting under that concrete you've got?! That's what a brick mason told me, anyway! On both issues! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-19-2006, 12:54 AM:

Loose transformer windings? Bad muffin fan? I would say shorted diode is possilbe, but the bulb current would have been very low, if it lit at all, and it would've burned out to an open after a little while - then you would see a 12 cycle pulsation in the illumination on the screen.

I'd say turn it on with the cover off, and see if you can better locate the source.

[EDIT] We posted at the same time, Justin.. good call! [Wink]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-19-2006, 01:00 AM:

Steve's running a Super Lume-X.

The fan does sound like your culprit. The transformers get hot... don't worry about that right now. If your light was OK during the show, that's not your problem.

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 08-19-2006, 01:01 AM:

Loose transformer windings? Bad muffin fan? I would say shorted diode is possilbe, but the bulb current would have been very low, if it lit at all, and it would've burned out to an open after a little while - then you would see a 12 cycle pulsation in the illumination on the screen.

I'd say turn it on with the cover off, and see if you can better locate the source.

[EDIT] We posted at the same time, Justin.. good call!

Tim, Justin. The picture was rock steady with ample light on the screen, the amps at a steady and normal 75amps. I will check the fan motor tommarow and try to put some oil to it if I can find a place. I will also try to fire it up with the panel off with great care. Hi Jack, its an awfull small fan to cause that kind of noise, but I guess its possible.

You have to remember, the unit was on and the fan is running long before I turn on the main projection switch, which then strikes the lamp. No noise came from the power supply until the lamp was ignighted. I did not do my normal warm up of the power supply as I would normally do either. It that important!

Posted by Justin West (Member # 920) on 08-19-2006, 01:02 AM:

So, Tim...you mean "good call" regarding the plastic under the concrete, right? [Wink]

Steve: You can't oil a muffin fan...just replace it if it ain't working! Unless something is caught in between the blades and is stopping the blades from spinning...in that case, remove said object! [beer]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-19-2006, 01:25 AM:

quote:
You have to remember... No noise came from the power supply until the lamp was ignighted.

It's probably loose transformer windings then (or a loose mount). If so, they'll have to be shimmed.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-19-2006, 03:30 AM:

(wonder if he's due for a new rectifier - being that old reactance (diode) rectifier -20 plus years - is showing some age, capacitors getting dried out,..et.al...)

Seen bunches of those old rectifiers biting the dust and being replaced with newer "compact" suitcase switchers...((just put in a danged surge protection in the circuit so these switchers don't blow when a power spike zips down the line...))

-Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-19-2006, 08:13 AM:

Since the muffin fan is running prior to lamp ignition...that has a high probability that it is not the culprit...

I hate that muffin fan...especially in the "current controlled" versions of that suitcase...it is a MF to get in/out without taking "short cuts" and doing tricks to hold the nuts in place for its screws. One of the better ideas I've seen is to just mount a fan on the outside...a full blown squirrel cage one so you can clean it and actually pump more air across the diodes/transformer.

If the capacitors are original, I would change them...you will most likely see an increase in lamp life from reduced ripple.

But back on topic...I would fire it up with the cover off (BE CAREFUL...there are many things that can easily bite you) and see if you can SEE or hear where the noise is coming from. Most likely the transformer or contactor. Note, with the cover off, you have killed the air flow of the cabinet so you may need an external fan blowing on it after awhile to keep it cool (there is a thermal switch which will interrupt the contactor switch leg if things get too hot).

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-19-2006, 08:27 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
If the capacitors are original, I would change them...you will most likely see an increase in lamp life from reduced ripple.

I assume that this is a 61001 series unit. I agree that replacing the caps is a good idea but from more of a safety standpoint that expecting to get lower ripple...so still don't expect to get very good lamp life even with the new caps. When running on 240 volts AC these units had more of an inrush current problem than a ripple problem. The single phase units typically measure about 7-10% ripple with good caps, and inrush over or just barely at many manufacturers specs. Replacing it with a better rectifier would be the best route. This is one of the more notorious rectifiers ever produced and a new rectifier ala Christie or Strong Switching type will actually pay for it self over 7 to 10 years of vastly extended lamp life. If you go the switcher route be sure that your AC panel has surge protection... before installing any switcher that is the first order of the day.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-19-2006, 09:26 AM:

Steve: would bet on the contactor contacts singing due to moisture. It's been very high humidity in our area,lately. Louis

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 08-19-2006, 12:59 PM:

Steve: would bet on the contactor contacts singing due to moisture. It's been very high humidity in our area,lately. Louis

Louis, I opened the side of the box today, made sure all the connections are tight. Cleaned everything good and then turned the lamp on with the side panel off. Sounds like the noise is coming from the Contacts in a contact block that is attached right above the Largest Transformer. Humid, oh Yes, Humid!!! for sure! Louis, you might have this right on. What should I do, just run the machine till something else happends such as drying out.

Last night after the show let out. I let the bulb cool for about 10 minutes and the refired the bulb and I got the same loud noise all over again. It did go away again with time. Today, it did not go away, however, I only had the bulb lit for a few minutes.

Other than the loud noise, everything seems to be working fine!

Thanks

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-19-2006, 01:30 PM:

Well, if it isn't the fan, then the transformer would be the next culprit. Steady buzz as soon as you light up? If the power supply doesn't make any unusual noises until the lamp ignites, you can eliminate the contactor. If it was acting up, you'd hear it even before igniting the bulb.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-19-2006, 03:58 PM:

Sorry,

Jack you are wrong on that one...there is no significant current on the contacts of the contactor until the lamp ignites.

If it were me, I would plan on changing out the contactor. If you have more than one identical rectifiers in the booth, you can swap them to verify it. Then again, the contactor isnt too terribly expensive as things go (unless you have IREM rectifiers with ABB contactors that are undersized from IREM).

BTW...when quoting some one...use the UBB quote codes. To learn them, use the handy buttons right below the reply window (in the "Instant UBB Code" section.

In the case of a quote...it would take the form of [q uote] "The Quoted Text" [/q uote]. Do not put the space I just did between the "q" and the "u". I did that so you could actually see it!

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 08-19-2006, 04:23 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
If it were me, I would plan on changing out the contactor.

Thanks Steve, The more I hear from everyone, I keep hearing that it could be the contactors and I belive thats the problem and a good place to start.

Thanks

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-19-2006, 06:16 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Sorry,

Jack you are wrong on that one...there is no significant current on the contacts of the contactor until the lamp ignites.

Steve,
OK... I'll bite.

How could the contactor cause a loud buzzing sound? The only way I could see this is if the plunger doesn't seat properly... and that would be purely mechanical. I have one on my reader board that got a bit rusty last year... it buzzed like Hell until I took it apart & cleaned the rust out. If that were the case for Steve, his would probably be buzzing as soon as he turned on the power supply. He says the buzzing starts when he ignites the bulb. That would tend to eliminate the contactor in my mind, unless he has an incoming voltage drop issue. Steve says his current is fine, and he hasn't suggested his booth lights drop when he ignites the lamp... so I'm assuming his incoming voltage is probably OK.

I can't see how the contacts themselves could buzz.... with current or not, it's just a switch. Maybe an arcing sound, as they're welding themselves together... but not a prolonged buzz.

I initially went with the fan, because Steve said his buzz sounded like a siren. That would infer a changing frequency. The only thing in there that could do that would be the fan. Now that he says the buzz starts when he ignites the bulb, it seems more likely that it's just the laminations in his transformer... which is common in those old supplies.

If not... what am I missing????

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-19-2006, 08:48 PM:

If it is just a buzz the it is just transformer noise...though it would tend to transistion between a hum (normal) to buzz (vibrations on the coils).

As for the contactor...think about a pitted contact that is having humid air pumped upon it...when the lamp ignites, you have one or more contacts that is worn and has humidity in it...you could litterally be buring that off each time it cycles. But beyond that...when the contacts pit, their contact quality diminishes...though may not be in total failure. Many a contactor has burned completely up without giving any indication from the picture point of view until the damage is done.

We always make a point of inspecting the wires going into/out of a contactor as well as ensuring that the connnections are tight...sometimes the only clue you have is a discoloration of a wire feeding the contactor.

Another thing that one could try to isolate the contactor without completely removing it is to try one leg at a time bypassing the contactor (make sure the power is off when you do this...just move one of the line side wires to the load side...if the problem persists, try the other side and restore the first side you chose.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-19-2006, 08:58 PM:

I havce had the steel cores of contactors corrode and then they can't completely pull closed... causing a really loud buzz....110 db or so and alot louder than a power transfromer buzz. Mainly had this happen on Irems but any contactor with a laminated steel core contactor(most all of them)could have this happen.

Mark

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 08-20-2006, 01:11 AM:

We were on the screen to tonight and stayed on. Contacts started out loud, and quieted down to near nothing with in 15 minutes or so.

My Buddy, Jim Boyd of Ohio, just happend to be in St Louis today is going to try to stop by and see me Sunday on his way home. He is staying the night with in a couple hours of me He should be able to figure it out. He also thinks its the contacts. We will see how things go on Sunday and report back. Thanks to all that have posted.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-20-2006, 01:50 AM:

Almost sounds like there's a temperature factor there.

It'll be interesting to hear what Jim comes up with. He's helped Steve through a couple of past booth challenges.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-20-2006, 02:09 AM:

I say, hit it with a stick. This sound sounds mechanical. If you were to push some stuff around in there, put pressure on the relay and the fan mounting, even moving around the wires close to the contact terminal you could determine where the noise is coming from, maybe even stopping it. On one of ours, all we had to do was push on one of the side panels and the loud rattling noise it was making stopped dead -- a few tightened screws fixed it. Even the coils themselves and the steel cabinate -- if there is vibration there, putting a different physical pressure would make the sound change. The fact that nothing untoward is going on electrically with the bulb, current, light, etc., tends to rule out some weird electrical problem. That screaming siren sound has got to be viration of some sort. Be interesting to see what.

And Steve, at least it is keeping your picture on the screen...you are lucky; one of ours didn't make any unusual noise to give any warning -- it just burst into flames in the middle of a show last year!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-20-2006, 03:46 AM:

Wonder if just take the contactor out, take an emery board and dress up the contacts some to see if this would be a quick fix until the new contactor is replaced...like dressing up dist. points in a car.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-20-2006, 12:30 PM:

quote:
My Buddy, Jim Boyd of Ohio... is going to try to stop by

Jim Boyd is everyone's friend. He's a good man.

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 08-21-2006, 12:32 AM:

Jim Boyd made his stop by as promised and low an behold, the bottom contactor was burned up pretty bad. He dressed it up a bit and tommarow I will look for a new contactor block. Jim, said he may have spare one out of a old box he would check on and mail it too me. I got kind of Lucky this time as the contactor block is easily installed by myself.

I really appreciate eveyones input and opinions on this matter. Thank you for taking your time to respond!

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 08-21-2006, 03:18 PM:

Well, I thought I was out of the woods, but I am not. I put in the new contactor today and I still have a loud Hum. There is no doubt the the contactor was burnt, I saw it will my own eyes!

However, I now feel the additional hum is coming from either of the 2 giant transformers.

Jim is looking to see if he might have part of an old Strong Power Supplys!

The sound is fairly loud, but not deafening!

I have exactly 35 more hours of playtime before I close for the season. We are looking at puting in a larger lamphouse later this fall or early next spring. Does anyone have a best guess as to how long or how short of a time it might be before this units quits all together. Best Guess anyone!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-21-2006, 04:40 PM:

If it is just the windings vibrating or the laminations which is more likely it will probably go on for years
The failure will occur when the varnish of the windings breaks and creates a "current leakage fault"
If one was very worried one could get a motor shop to do a high pot test of the transformer to test the condition of the insulation

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-21-2006, 07:02 PM:

Steve; have fought many many of those Strongs! Borrow a good set of socket wrenches with extenders, have it all ready to go correctly sized. Run all night; turn off the power at the breaker panel, and then while still hot, tighten the laminations on all of the large transformers, (one is a choke). You may get 4 or more turns. It is important that the temperature still be hot when you do this.

As stated above, hum will go on forever with no faults. I would NOT replace components; just tighten the ones you have. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2006, 07:25 PM:

I typically have carefully pounded oak wedges between the windings and the laminations to cure this problem. usually you can get rid of all of it but at least you can always make it quieter. Have also done this on humming Christies many times. Only use OAK since it is a stable wood. The part that is making the loud humm is the entore core or winding section of the transformer. Its come loose fomr the iron frame and is free to move aroound in there. I generally carefully do this with the power on and the thing humming away as you can then carefully find the point that its the quietest... just don't get carried away with those wedges. One or two is all it takes to quiet one down.

Mark

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 08-26-2006, 09:27 AM:

quote:
From Louis: Steve: would bet on the contactor contacts singing due to moisture. It's been very high humidity in our area,lately. Louis

Hi All,

I had been working on taking the advice Louis gave me last week to tighten the bolts in the tranformers. I opened the case, the bolts through the transformers were rusted some what. Put WD-40 on all Bolt heads and nuts... Set for 2 days, I went to turn the Bulb on last night for the movie. Not a single Noise was uttered by this machine.

Unless WD-40 was somewhat of a wonder cure, I would think that maybe with the Very High Humidity that Louis was talking about the last 2 weekends may have been the culprit. He may have the correct answer, Only time will tell and another rise in severe humidity here in Indiana. Knock on Wood!!! Of course, the time to have High Heat and Humidity here in Indiana are quickly passing for the season.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 11-16-2007, 01:23 AM:

It has been 446 days since the last post.

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 11-16-2007, 01:23 AM:

I thought this would be the best place for this question, beings it deals with the power supply.

I've got a problem with a couple of my lamp houses. I can't seem to get the amperage up to the specified 85A for a 2000W bulb. Even setup on the maximum setting. I'm running Strong Super Lume-X Lamp houses with the Strong Xenon Power Supply. I've taken photos of the settings to show where they are, and so that you can direct me as to what I should do.

This was the original settings inside the power supply before I tried boosting the amperage.

This was the reading from the back of the lamp house while it was running.

This was the stepper switch setting. 6.

Now I know if the amperage isn't enough for the size bulb that is running, even when set on the highest setting, you can move the wire in the first picture on the left to the left one slot to increase the current. But at the same time you need to turn the stepper switch down so that you don't supply the bulb with to much current. When I did this, the reading on the Lamp House Meter only went up 2 hash marks, bringing the amperage up to 60A, even on the highest setting for the stepper.

What should I do next?

I guess some of this information would be useful.

I've installed an ASL(ORC) XM2000H/VC/G Lamp with is rated at 28V and 70A. I would assume that the amps as the bulb is aged would generally need to be bumped up to 75, 80, and going no higher than 85, is that correct?

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 11-16-2007, 02:22 AM:

Are you sure that the meters are good? I had several meters that were not reading accurately last year. Had one that was reading almost 10amps lower than it actually was. I would try measuring the current across the shunt with a volt meter.

If you know what/where the shunt is quite easy to do. Set the meter to DC and carefully (with full protective clothing and mask if it requires exposing the lamp) measure the voltage across the shunt while the lamp is already lit. It should give you a reading in mV. Next power off the lamp and look at the shunt markings that look something like 150A/50mV. This gives you 3mV per amp. So if you get a reading of say 20mV with your hand held then multiply it by 3 which will give you 60A. I'd post pics, but my camera's not working.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-16-2007, 03:02 AM:

How's the 4 diodes in that diode bank in those old rectifiers?

Those old rectifiers DO get mighty tired after years of service and seen them changed out with switchers.

Actually, you really don't want to go max on that bulb where your suggested rating is 80% of the wattage - like 70 to 75 amps @ 27 VDC. (One can easilly do the math: If you can grab the amperage above mentioned with a VOM, then touch across the DC legs to get VDC, take the two values and times them together to get your wattage ..<the classic PIE formula P=IxE> - which the total should be within the 80 to 90 percent of the maximum wattage of the bulb.

Granted though, the amperage output what is shown on the meter isn't the healthiest...have you tried a different bulb, for I've seen defective bulbs run at low amperage like that.

Also, check for tight connections from rectifier to lamphouse. L

(Tap the meter plastic face with it running., Sometimes the movements inside of them DO love to get a bit on the dry and sticky side.)

Look on the VOLT/AMP plate (where the Model and SS# is embossed on the plate) on the rectifier to see what the MAX VoltsDC/AmpsDC outputs are. You really shouldn't try to exceed those settings.

Good luck, Thomas - Monte

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 11-16-2007, 03:47 AM:

quote: Jeremy Weigel
I would try measuring the current across the shunt with a volt meter.

Where in this photo is the Shunt? Is it the metal cross member I see there behind the wires that has the esbestos cable, with red tape on it, attached. I looked at the manual on the site, and from the B/W picture, I couldnt' tell what it was. I had to remove a metal plate to take this picture. I assume this is ment to keep the circut borad there in the back from being shattered when a bulb explodes.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-16-2007, 05:32 AM:

Yes, that's the shunt. The cover keeps the UV from destroying the electronic parts (It destroys the rest quite well.) Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-16-2007, 08:21 AM:

I had two of those old 61XXX series rectifiers fail... one on day and the other the next day about a year ago in western Nevada. Since the theater was a stones throw from the site of the 1963 Project Shoal Nuclear Test I told the theater owner it was probbly relatesd to the escaping radionuclides from the underground blast chamber. Odd thing was that it was the main transformer in both rectifiers that failed (Shorted windings). Caused the main breaker to trip on one unit immediately and on the other after about 30 seconds. Those rectifers never were any good... always high ripple and inrush... lamp eaters.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-16-2007, 08:34 AM:

For current readings...I use a calibrated clamp on DC ammeter...but is it me or does that screw holding the positive lead on the shunt look toasted? They normally are not black like the picture shows but more like the other screw.

Steve

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 11-16-2007, 11:16 AM:

It also looks like some of the wires are toasted as well,although it could just be a coating of dust.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-16-2007, 07:39 PM:

Hey Steveo,

There's some nice crispy Strong lamphouse wiring for you!! Its sure an old one but the new lamphouses still use the same garbage wire. The average span that I've seen till they get nice and crispy like that is about 6 years.... Not very good life out of a 320.00 wiring harness!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-17-2007, 07:00 AM:

Not to defend Strong's wire or anything, nor my complete frustration as to why everyone uses white wire ties in a lamphouse that can't take the UV but do you find that other manufacturers use any better grade of wire? Certainly not Christie where even the lamp adjust mechanisms have suffered from failure to UV radiation.

About the only manufacturer that seems to have wire that stands up well is Kinoton...it stays flexible even after exposure to the lamp. But THEY use those stupid white wire ties too.

Now Mark, you can't blame Strong for that screw, necessarily and their Asbestoes wire seems to have held up very well! No buring either!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-17-2007, 10:15 AM:

In the shop, we have rehabbed many old Xetron consoles, Super Lumexs, etc. Generally we replace all heavy wiring with the kind that Christie uses (UV-proof) and then use BLACK UV wire ties.

The reason factories dont's do this are two fold: price and the fact that they never see an old one. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-17-2007, 05:26 PM:

Steve,
Actually it took ALOT longer than the average 6 to 7 years it takes for Super Lum-Ex wire to become crispy than it did for the lamp mechanism to go bad on those Christie H series things... I have a high number of those H series lamps and consoles whose lamp adjust mechanisms are also still working just fine. And at least in the Christies the main wire harness STAYS GOOD... it never becomes brittle nor cracks. I've installed countless plenum kits in old H series consoles whose wiring was still in like new shape even though they were over 30 years old. The Supers should have been at least UV proof as Louis says or better yet Teflon. The latter is not all that expensive to do.

While I won't piss and moan as much about the Super 80 and Ultra lamphouses it seems that Strong has done little to nothing to improve on the Super-Lumex while other companies still seem to strive to do at least some improvements to film related items...

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-17-2007, 07:18 PM:

While I'll certainly have to conceed that Strong's wiring has historically been lacking (goes brittle)...as to improving the design...it is like with Christie's projector...started with such a low bar...it might seem amazing that they keep improving it but with each improvement, it is only in a sense to be bring their result up to where others already exist. The Super Lume-X has a wonderful light output. The Super/Ultra-80 are also quite good though their optical design goes back pretty far too.

Personally, I've always liked Strong's lamp alignment too...no goofy linkages that go bad or need special wrenches to fit. Oh, the larger K series lamps also used the nylon lamp alignments too. Now I admit that is going back a ways now. Then again, Christie feels the need to ground the negative side...better to float the DC, in my opinion...keeps noise down, among other things...it also tends to keep ammeters alive...I can't tell you how many Christie ammeters have bit the dust due to the ignition going through the meter rather than the lamp. I also much prefer Strong's lamp cooling. At least they shoot air up on the anode (without any brittle glass tubes that crack on the old H and K series).

But yes, it his high time that Strong updates the wire quality in their lamphouses.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-17-2007, 07:57 PM:

I agree the light from the Super is very nice. Always used them for dailies where the DP had no problem with the dichroic color. The Light can be set very flat and even out of a Super!!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-17-2007, 10:04 PM:

Ayup...I have a pair of 5400K reflectors at the MPAA on Super Lume-X lamphouses...never a complaint about color, uniformity or quantity of light.