This is topic Someone at Technicolor is trying to kill me in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008215

---

Posted by Christopher Meredith (Member # 3767) on 08-25-2006, 08:58 AM:
 
Okay, so I'm building up "Invincible" yesterday. I was using a Kelmar RTV-8500 rewind bench with the automatic lever/arm removed and with a stationary roller mounted at the film counter mount to "flange bind" the film as it is going over from the shipping reels.

I have the (enormous) trailer package on the house reel and I am running R1 onto it at full speed. It's getting right up to the end of the reel and I am standing there with my hand on the speed knob when all of a sudden I hear an incredible BANG and something goes whizzing just past my face. When I get my wits about me, I notice that the tail has broken about 12" from the end and is still attached to the core, and the roller that was mounted at the film counter mount is... missing.

Apparently, someone who handled R1 of this print of INvincible wrapped the tail of the film around a piece of plastic and slid it into the core to prevent it from disengaging when the tail ran out. What's more, the force of the film pulling tight actually sheared off the screw that was holding the roller in place and the roller went flying, missing my face by about an inch, and embedded itself into the ceiling.

Needless to say, I am extremely pissed off. Why would someone make such an effort to prevent the tail from releasing from the reel? What is the purpose of that? And has anyone ever had a roller do something like this? I tried to reproduce the situation using broken rollers and a heavy stick and I couldn't get a mounting screw to shear off like that no matter what I tried.

Anyway, I'd love your feedback. Who should I tell about this to make sure it never happens again to anyone else? ...and check out the pics:






In this last pic, you can see the scene in context. It took a few hours to get the camera and in the mean time, I put a new roller where the first one was. YOu can still see the first one stuck in the ceiling.
 

---

Posted by Cory Isemann (Member # 2517) on 08-25-2006, 09:17 AM:
 

 

---

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-25-2006, 10:05 AM:
 
I dont know how you all do things, but, I have a good look at the shipping reels before I start building the print, AND I never go flying at high speed all the way to the end of the reel.

Sure, I've had broken reels in the past, but have never had one disintigrate on the rewind.

Glad you didnt get hurt. Too bad your rewind got damaged. Polyestar film stock is so unforgiving!
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-25-2006, 10:27 AM:
 
Fastening the end of the film to the core in a way that cannot come free is not normal practice at the labs and exchanges. Any chance the print is coming from a previous theatre that ran it as a preview? That plastic material the end of the film is wrapped around looks like a piece of scrap material.
 

---

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-25-2006, 12:02 PM:
 
I had a print (lab new) of Brokeback Mountain that had a similar thing done to it on the very last reel. When I was running that reel off (at full speed on a Christie AW3) when it came to the jammed core, it snapped off the lower roller on the MUT, ripped the reel in half, and pulled the MUT hard against the platter disk.

I was NOT amused.

As far as TES trying to actually 'kill' someone, I think Rachel still has dibs on that claim...

-Aaron
 

---

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-25-2006, 02:04 PM:
 
Yea, when I get my prints from BOTH depots, I always look in the core slot area and see how the ends look like when shoved in the slot. If questionable, I take apart the reel, grab the scissors and snip off any of that ugly stuff, reassemble the reel before it goes on the MUT.

-Monte
 

---

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-25-2006, 02:50 PM:
 
I've seen that once or twice before. And I believe someone else on this forum (Jack Ondracek maybe?) had a tail secured that way as well.

My latest Tech. fiasco is the SEALED cans for or print of Invincible didn't contain a reel 2. I shudder to think Technicolor of all people is pirating films!
 

---

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-25-2006, 03:24 PM:
 
Geez, Chris, that is wild. And yah, glad you didn't get hurt. I would sure make a formal complaint to TES if this print hadn't come from any other theatre.

Let me ask you though, why take off the control arm & roller? And I see the statiionary roller is located at a place where there is this metal thingy on my table -- is it that what it is there for? I always wondered what it's purpose was.

Also, I see you have two splicers. Is one for Fox Sprocket prints (4trk Mag)? I have been looking to find if Newmade ever made their model for Fox sprocket holes.

At any rate, do be careful....check out those cores and the reels as well before you start peeling out on that rewind. I got a very serious sliced hand due to a plastic reel that was broken, but the two pieces were mated in such a way that I didn't realize it was broken. The thing was going at a good clip and I slowed it down with the control knob but instinctively I put my fingers on the reel and at that moment the two pieces separated and my fingers couldn't have been cut more if it was a knife slicing across them.

I always thought Kelmar really missed the boat with their design -- it would have been much better and quite easy if they had attached that articulated arm directly to a control reheostate so that it would keep an even tension throughtout the entire wind instead of a steady speed with puts much more tension at the ends of the wind than at the beginning. I always try to make the speed adjustment manually, slowing it down so the feed reel stays at a steady speed instead of taking off as it get's closer to the end.

And as for rewind projectiles, anyone ever use a split reel where one of flanges detaches and goes hurling off the spindle and flys across the room like spinning blade of a slicing machine. You really don't want to be in the way of THAT thing!
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-25-2006, 03:49 PM:
 
Guys, this was the fault of the REEL, not anything intentional.

TES a number of years back came up with the worst reel design of all time as is pictured below.


THAT is the cause of the problem. Essentially, if the reel is assembled "per spec" (such that the slit in the core is lined up with the cutout in the flange), this can and does happen. The only way to be able to use these reels is to intentionally mount them 180 degrees out of spec to the core.

As if that isn't bad enough, this reel design is the worst ever in regards to the flanges flying off.

I'm sure everyone has one of these godamn things in a print can somewhere. You can simply look at it yourself to see what I am talking about. Essentially the two plastic pieces that mount through the hole in the core convert the reel into one of those old Super 8mm reels with the "catch" in them for the auto-rewinding projectors. If you take a close look at the original image that was posted above (and I have re-posted below), you will see where that part of the reel busted off and created this "catch" I am speaking of.


It's a horrible design and should've been taken out of circulation years ago. Not everyone has the ability to be there as the reel tails out for a variety of reasons (a major one being a rushed buildup job due to "security" screenings), and as a result this is a dangerous reel design for the safety of the people, the film and even the projectors (for people who run reel to reel).
 

---

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-25-2006, 05:53 PM:
 
Frank,

The Neumade 35CS splicer does exist as I have sold one (about 3-years ago to the AFI/Silver) and have laid my hands on about 1/2-dozen of them over the years. The North Carolina School for the Arts has three of them!

I believe the Splycemar (Tokyo Seiki) people even have it pictured somewhere...nope just checked...they don't picture that one. But really, it does exist as a special order item. Complete with a "special price" too!
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-25-2006, 10:06 PM:
 
Although I should hardly be considered an official spokesperson for Technicolor Distribution, I did hear from Tim Burke who has always been a pleasure to deal with on this issue and he reported that due to this event, they are immediately pulling these style reels from normal use and will keep them set aside to only be used in an emergency situation if they are absolutely out of the other style reels.

Pretty impressive if you ask me. That took less than one business day's worth of discussing from them to get action taken! I can't think of any other company that has acted so quickly and with concern to theater level issues such as this.

Now if only ETS/Deluxe Film Services would stop using those godamn "fox boxes" rather than cans. I swear my back is going to give out on me from that uneven distribution of weight as I carry those things up and down the stairs! (They would be fine if they were 4 reel boxes instead of 7 and 8 reel boxes.)
 

---

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 08-26-2006, 12:15 AM:
 
Seems like all I am getting lately is the damn fox boxes
 

---

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-26-2006, 03:20 AM:
 
What's a 'Fox box'?
 

---

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-26-2006, 03:30 AM:
 
remember the early "FOX box" that was a lift top box that had to use snugstraps to keep them closed? Got a few of those from the depot when they were chucking them ...to store 16mm films in.

What really sucked is when "Gods and Generals" came out - "dang!" - two of those 8 reel boxes to huck down the stairs....almost 150 lbs, but at least you were balanced...lol ..

Not as bad as those damnable 6k plastic reel shipping units that WB and NewLine played with a few years ago - looked like 70mm shipping cans. - Monte
 

---

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-26-2006, 08:37 AM:
 
I have had the secret surprise when breaking down the old TES reels. I wind at full speed, starting off slow so everything snugs up fine, then full, and then slow down the last, maybe 3 feet. It came to a sudden, and loud stop, but not exploded, probably because I slowed down, and not just let it run out at full. Never really had a reel explode on me, but I have had one of the flanges come disconnected from the core, and go twirling in the air like a helicopter. Same type of reel too. Now only if you can talk TES into delivering on wensdays rather than thursdays. And cans? I prefer the stackable plastic cans. You know, the ones that don't want to close fully. They're easier to carry, and I've learned how to get them closed without beating them into submission, usually.

[ 08-26-2006, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Charles Greenlee ]
 

---

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 08-26-2006, 08:59 AM:
 
"Fox" Box is a large grey box that is used to hold a large number of reels (usually a whole movie) that is really heavy and a pain.

I think 20th Century Fox used them first, hence the name. But any ETS print around here (Sony, Fox, Warners, Paramount, New Line, ect.) might come in one.
 

---

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-26-2006, 12:22 PM:
 
Hint for carrying a Fox Box: Rather than using the flimsy handle, set the box on a table, trash can, etc and then pick it up by extending your arms to the front front bottom corners so the weight of the box is against your chest. It's much easier to carry that way.

I place the box on the rewind bench and unload the reels out of it...hence, no bending to set it down. For breakdown, put the box back on the bench and load the reels into it as you fill them. You can then pick the box up to carry it downstairs without having to bend over.
 

---

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-26-2006, 12:53 PM:
 
Yeah, that's how you do it. Sometimes I don't have that option. Esp with Benton. They put it on the gorund, and I have to pick it up to carry it upstairs. And when they pick up our old prints, somone has them already on the floor, so I have to pick them up to carry them down for the benton guy. I only wiegh 130, and at 6'1" that's a bit of umph I have to put into it. (The reason I mention hieght is a shorter person at the same wight would be proportially stronger, due to CofG and leverage)
 

---

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 08-26-2006, 03:07 PM:
 

 

---

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-27-2006, 01:32 AM:
 
That's some nice looking shelving there...which theatre was that picture taken?
 

---

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 08-27-2006, 02:01 AM:
 
It was somewhere in the picture warehouse. I don't remember.
 

---

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-28-2006, 03:43 AM:
 
(and then, there are those damnable clamshell plastic cases in the assembly to the right of the main assembly in the picture....grrr..those are a pain to close at times...) - Monte
 

---

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 08-28-2006, 11:22 AM:
 
Monte, those are the ones I said I liked earlier. Their handles don't cut into my hand, and I'm not carrying the entire movie in one box. However, they can be such a pain to close. I just to get some pvc pipe to put around the handles of the metal cans so their handles don't hurt so much.
 

---

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-29-2006, 12:20 AM:
 
The plastic cases aren't so bad. Just like with the heavier loop-hinge type cans you've got to pull the top straight up at a 90 degree angle to the bottom to straighten the hinge out.
Long as you do that they're fine. Just don't get cut on that stupid cable they use to attach the plastic clip!
 

---

Posted by Jarryd Beard (Member # 2543) on 08-29-2006, 01:43 PM:
 
Same thing happened to our projectionist a couple months back. The MUT slammed into the platter and we had several damaged rollers. We called Technicolor and asked for the claims department. They didn't know what to say. After a few weeks, someone got back to us once and we gave them replacement part numbers. Haven't heard from them since. I guess we need to make a follow up call.
 

---

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-29-2006, 10:11 PM:
 
..and a theatre is gonna blame TECH for the theatre's ill-training in film handling procedures in the first place and expect full satisfaction for damages caused?

Should ask a bunch of us on when we had our MUTS slam into the platters due to a crimped lead end on the core, when it was our responsibility in the first place to check such matters before mounting film on the platters....and some of us learned that one the hard way...only to blame ourselves.

....Good Luck.......that aint gonna fly....
 

---

Posted by Tim Burke (Member # 3331) on 08-31-2006, 01:46 PM:
 
Meredith,
We apologize for this. Our corrective action is:
-As of Friday August 25th, we directed both of our depots, Wilmington, OH and Ontario, CA, to pull/not to use again, said translucent reels.
We commit to never use again unless we are absolutely out of reels, which has not happened in years. We are budgeted to purchase 100K new reels before year end.
Again we apologize.
All on Film-Tech should feel comfortable contacting me directly any time. My direct line at the office is (800)99-FILMS ext 6089
Tim Burke
GM of Technicolor Cinema Distribution
 

---

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-31-2006, 02:59 PM:
 
I've seen the end leader tuck thing on the orange ones as well..or, in fact with ALL of the reels coming from TECH. Don't blame the lonely transluscent reel.

The problem isn't the flanges, it's how the end lead is attached to the core, for I've never had any probs with the translucent flanges outside of broken locking assemblies, but shoot, when you're in the theatre business you have to expect nothing is perfect.

Those good ol metal reels are a distant past (and to think in the olden days when we would get those reels with the flanges all bent in and we had to pull them out to straight to wind film off or on...) and things nowdays are going to plastic (to save manufacturing costs and shipping weight), you gotta learn to work with what is coming out.

Also, once again, it's really not even whoever is doing the folding trick of the tail leads their fault in a way. Just that they need to know AND be re-educated that we are dealing with poly film and there has to be an handling adustment when dealing with poly film and that is simply NOT to fold the tail end in the core slot.

Yes, that was a horrible accident to happen with flying roller being stuck to the ceiling (with me busting rollers off of the MUT due to the MUT slamming into the platter decks, MUT falling over and breaking the knob completely off the variac spindle, bending the decks where I have to straighten up the deck-but I didn't cry out loud, only to myself for not being more observant in checking the reels...), but I'm sure after this accident, that eyes are now being rep-educated more to observe such situation so it won't happen again.

The bottom thing is that we all need to work together on this and stop pointing fingers. The depots needs to be re-educated on their end of film handling, and if they have employee problems, THEN, the film handlers on OUR end needs to be re-educated on watching in such areas to prevent such booth accidents on their end.

...for what it's worth .. thx -Monte
 

---

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-01-2006, 10:03 AM:
 
First of all I have to say that this particular kind of reel IS more prone to this happening than other reel types, at least in my experience. Technicolor did the right thing by pulling it.

HOWEVER, I have to strongly agree with Monte here. This isn't completely Tech's fault. First of all its not Tech people that tuck the tail into the core-that happens at the lab. The people at Technicolor only snap the two halves of the reel on the core. Two things solve this problem:

1) Proper inspection of the reel before makeup. This error can happen on ANY snap together reel, not just the above mentioned ones,
2) SLOW DOWN the MUT/rewind bench when you get towards the end of the reel. There is no reason to be going full speed when you get to the end of the reel.

This has happened to me before-similar incident as mentioned above, had the MUT yanked into the platter when the tail got stuck in the core. Learned my lesson, now I always slow down.
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-01-2006, 11:09 AM:
 
In most cases, the print is wound up onto those 4-inch cores right from the dryer of the processing machine. Normally, the end of the film is simple wrapped around the core but NOT attached. Indeed, at the lab, there would not be enough time for the process machine operator to insert and lock the film into the core slot, since they have only a dozen or so seconds to start each new roll:



I suspect this incident of poor practice occurred "downstream" of the lab.

The "near miss" of this incident certainly should make checking to be sure the film is not tightly attached to the core a SOP (Standard Operating Practice) in every projection room.
 

---

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-01-2006, 06:59 PM:
 
*ponders*

Every reel I've ever dealt with was either taped or tucked into the core. Come to think of it I can't remember how many are taped vs. tucked but I'm thinking more for taping.

Since the film exchanges don't do any rewinding of the reels how could they have any control over how its attached to the core? The only thing I can think of is the qaulity check process that some reels go through, but doesn't that take place at the labs?

Someone help me here and let me know if I've got all this backwards.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-01-2006, 09:19 PM:
 
John, the labs indeed do either tape or tuck the film into the core. I can't remember the last time I got a brand new print that was just "slip-grabbed" onto the core. It's been many, many years.
 

---

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-02-2006, 07:09 PM:
 
What I was wonderin about with Dustin's comments: Are the depots handling any film anymore to where they just clip on the flanges, drop them into the cans and shoot them out to the theatres - not paying any attention on how the lead ends are in the cores. If so, then let's leave TECH out of the blame for all of this lead attachment thing.
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-19-2006, 09:16 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

---

John, the labs indeed do either tape or tuck the film into the core. I can't remember the last time I got a brand new print that was just "slip-grabbed" onto the core. It's been many, many years.

---