Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Strange problem in prints

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Posted by William Clark (Member # 3938) on 08-27-2006, 01:12 AM:

This week, when my theater opened Invincible and Beerfest (along with some others), I noticed (and other people noticed) that in the same spot in the film, the picture gradually fades to blackness and the sound drops out, then it comes back and so does the sound. I think I can rule out a failing bulb, because it happens at the exact same spot in each movie, and happens every time, so it's obviously a problem with the print.

Being that I've worked a grand total of three shifts in the projection booth, my knowledge of potential problems is pretty limited... I was wondering if any of you had any ideas as to what could be wrong?

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-27-2006, 01:36 AM:

In the same spot in both movies? On a particular reel?
This could be a lab defect on both prints.
We need more data to know for sure...

Posted by Alex Grueneberg (Member # 2652) on 08-27-2006, 02:32 AM:

I had a similar issue with A scanner Darkly a while back. I belive it may have something to do with safe light fogging during developing. Which means unprocessed film was exposed to a safe light for too long. When the film gets fogged, both picture color and sound may be affected. I also had parts fade to complete black.

Its odd that you had it happen on two separate prints though.. yet stranger things have happened. I'd talk to your other booth people and get replacement reels ordered ASAP as soon as you rule out any problems from in house.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-27-2006, 03:19 AM:

That is a lab defect. You should've caught it during your pre-screening the night before you opened the movie to the public and reported it immediately to the booker so you could get a replacement reel. As it is right now, you're stuck with it because if you order a replacement reel you will be billed for it since it was not reported by the first public showing. If your theater does not permit pre-screenings, then they just got what they deserved. [Big Grin]

Do note that if it is a TES print (orange cans), you can simply call them directly to get a replacement reel in this sort of situation. Again though, it's too late to do it now. 1-800-99-FILMS

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-27-2006, 03:26 AM:

Brad, is that true even for damage/defects that were obviously not caused by the theatre? How can they justify charging the theatre for a reel that has a lab defect such as fogging?

Posted by Alex Cross (Member # 3520) on 08-27-2006, 03:29 AM:

I'm so glad I work in the UK. We don't get the chance to pre-screen most films. If there is a problem found after it's opened, the offending reel/print is replace straight away at no charge. We only get charged if the damage was done at or cinema.

Alex

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-27-2006, 03:52 AM:

Dustin, you are correct it shouldn't matter, but the sad fact of reality is that in every case I've seen a report made to the booker later than opening day the theater got charged.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 08-27-2006, 02:50 PM:

Our print of A scanner Darkly had a similar problem. On the fifth reel just before the first cue mark it washes out to green for
about 6 frames. We got the print just a couple hours before the show we had to stick with it.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-27-2006, 04:46 PM:

Surely if TES sends you the print an hour before screening, they can't very well bill the theatre for the lab defect if it is reported within 24 hrs. Then again, even without a prescreening, a defect such as a stretch of black should have been a red flag caught during the print prep and buildup. It would be very easy to determine that this is a lab defect because the soundtrack as well as the image would have gone black as well.

I guess if the theatre has no prescreening procedure, then at the very least, it should assign an "audition usher" to watch the film from start to finish the very first show to spot anything that needs attention. At least then any lab mistakes could be reported by the first day.

Depending on how much emphasis the theatre manager puts on quality presentation vs. money, it wouldn't be too late to still call for a replacement reel. How much would they charge for a single reel? For a popular film that is doing good business, eating the cost of a reel so as to provide a flawless show would be something that should be considered. Besides, the theatre could possible contact the distributor and explain the situation. If TES charges them for a replacement reel, the theatre might be able to negotiate that cost into the house nut.

Barring that kind of committment to presentation, I guess the next best thing would be to edit out those offending sections. If luck is with you, the edit might not be too terribly noticable.

Posted by William Clark (Member # 3938) on 08-28-2006, 03:17 AM:

Well, I let the head projectionist and general manager know that it was most likely a print defect and mentioned that it was probably exposed to too much light during development, and I got blank stares from both of them. I suggested ordering replacement reels, and the GM said "No, that would cost too much money."

Kind of sad, in my opinion. Oh well.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-28-2006, 09:46 AM:

Lab "safelight fogging" generally is blue/cyan/purple in coloration, and is either seen as an overall coloration across the full width of the film (including the perforation area and edges), or an "edgefog" where the light piped into the edge of the film roll as it sat under a "safelight". Occasionally, you will see white light fogging, which would normally be yellow/brown in color on the print.

If fogging affects the sound, or is obvious in the picture, a replacement reel should be ordered immediately. As noted, a good reason for prescreening inspection, or at the very least, someone watching and listening to the presentation before the busy weekend shows.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-28-2006, 12:27 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Dustin, you are correct it shouldn't matter, but the sad fact of reality is that in every case I've seen a report made to the booker later than opening day the theater got charged.

Several people here have commented in the past, and regretted, that theatres which damage prints do not get charged for it. So, if you damage a print you don't get charged, but if you report a faulty reel, which is clearly not your fault, then you do? [Confused]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-28-2006, 12:55 PM:

Maybe the difference is that, in my case, the owner/head projectionist/payer-of-the-bills is making the call... but I've ordered replacement reels on several occasions, and not only have I never been charged... the subject has not even come up.

I do make sure that my booker (or TES) understands that the problem came in on the print and could not possibly have happened after delivery to my theatre. Doing that pretty much puts the issue in their court, since they'd have to look at the reel and find a way to argue the point.

I also make it clear that I'll have pictures of the damage, prior to sending the reel back.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 08-28-2006, 02:09 PM:

Help me to understand... Lack of quality control is costing your theatres in the wages and salaries for the time needed to inspect the product? Then they charge you if defects are not reported within 24 hours; even if the defects cannot possibly have occurred in your theatre? Is that explicitly specified in the booking contract? Oh boy...

Posted by Kevin Raisler (Member # 1761) on 09-01-2006, 08:59 PM:

I've never had to pay for replacement reels, Ever.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 09-02-2006, 06:56 PM:

If there is an actual lab defect - they cannot charge you for the replacement reel.

Here's my take on pre-screenings: If there is a problem with a print, and you do not screen it - the timing will be bad. Think about it - opening weekend. The absolute quickest you'll get that replacement reel is Saturday (if you haven't pre-screened it). By then hundreds of people will have seen the sad presentation of said movie. Hell, I have even called TES late on a Thursday night and still got the replacement reel on Saturday.

Once the movie hits the screen for a paying audience - that's it!