Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Ashcraft Super Core-Lite Mirror Resurfacing/Replacement

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Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 09-24-2006, 04:24 PM:

We're running changeovers with Super Core-Lite carbon arcs at the Loew's Jersey, and one of the mirrors has degraded to the point where there's a significant difference in light output and quality between the two lamphouses.

Does anyone have any idea how feasible it would be to find a replacement mirror or have a new one manufactured? The lamphouses we've obtained for spares all had broken or missing mirrors. We're willing to consider resurfacing them, but not without a spare mirror on hand in case one were damaged during transport or recoating. Should this prove to be insurmountably difficult or prohibitively expensive, we're prepared to switch to xenons, so it's not critical.

This is not a joke. [Big Grin]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-24-2006, 04:51 PM:

You could try Lenny Miller at Eastern Cinema Supply (781-294-0381). When I last spoke with him, he had some NOS reflectors for various types of arc lamps.

I believe that Marble sells new ones as well, though I'm sure that they are not cheap and I don't know if they sell them for Ashcraft lamps.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 09-24-2006, 05:47 PM:

Does UltraFlat recoat them? A couple used xenons with good mirrors might not cost much more than recoating the old mirrors.

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 09-24-2006, 11:27 PM:

Here are a few thoughts: 1) You might post a "wanted to buy" ad here on Film-Tech; maybe someone out there has a used one to sell.

2) You might also contact (or watch for comments from) some of the service guys who normally post on here. Mark Gulbrandtson and Richard Fowler both are part of cinema service companies that normally maintain (new and) old theatre equipment, and they well have something used you could buy. (And my apologies to others on here, who I'm not aware of, who also might help out)

3) And finally, "Opti-Forms" Co. in Southern California makes re-surfaced (and replacement) mirrors for numerous lamphouses. They may already have "blanks" for your lamphouse, or be able to make them for you. No, it won't be cheap, but your patrons deserve good light on the screen.

At some point you'll have to perform the triage decision -- do you get new mirrors, or go xenon at long last? Really, do you think your patrons will actually understand or appreciate the significance of the lightsource?

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 09-24-2006, 11:41 PM:

Hope you guys find new reflectors. xenon light is so blue-ish, as we who are old know... [Eek!]

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-25-2006, 05:53 AM:

I believe the Loew's already has a pair of xenon lamphouses; there were on display in the lobby last year, along with the various other parts of the pair of DP-70s which they had just acquired at that time.

The last time I saw a show at the Loew's, in March this year, the light was much improved from the previous year, when, frankly, it was terible. It's still not what it should be, and the xenons would probably give a better light than the Core-lites in their present condition, but I would rather see the Core-lites with decent mirrors in them. They give a very good light, I could always tell when a cinema had converted to xenon, and it's not just a question of the colour, there's something else different about the light. I find that Technicolor dye prints in particular really do look different with carbon.

Please keep the Core-lights as long as you possibly can; it must be possible to get hold of some mirrors somewhere. If possible, keep them long enough to do a few 70mm shows with them when you get the DP-70s set up.

Also, xenons are not well suited to running 2000 foot spools.

If you can find some mirrors, or a re-silvering service somewhere then I would be prepared to make a contribution to the cost.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 09-25-2006, 10:37 AM:

The Loews Jersey plans keep those carbon arc lamps as long as we can. In addition to hoping that some supplier still has some NOS, we were also wondering if some film-tech'er out there who is working in an older theatre has one of these lamp houses sitting in a store-room or behind stage and would be willing to send us the reflector.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-25-2006, 03:22 PM:

The last Ashcraft Core-light we retired in 1989. To manufacture a new glass body would involve have a custom "tool" to produce the blank which would be cost prohibitive. Recoating an existing blank or cleaned up existing reflector is do able if done on rear of glass, hot type; front cold type would be probably not available since the old glass surface would probably have microscopic damage from the arc.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 09-26-2006, 12:48 PM:

Thank you all for your leads and advice. Getting good replacement mirrors would be the best and most practical course of action.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-27-2006, 04:34 AM:

I would also call Steve at International Cinema Equipment Company in Miami. They've got everything under the sun down there: (305) 573-7339 or www.iceco.com

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-27-2006, 02:13 PM:

Be careful: 20 years ago I purchased a good number of B+L front surfaced mirrors for Super Corelite. The new reflector gave less light than the one I replaced; the depth of the curvature was different. Not only did B+L not take them back; they issued all of them that way until the end. I trashed mine since I did not have something of value to sell. No one else did the same, so I COULD HAVE sold them to customers like most nearly everyone else.

If you moved the arc forward into the back of the contacts, you had GREAT light for awile. They had destroyed the "mold" for the front surface ones and just used the mold for the rear surface ones. Louis

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 09-27-2006, 08:28 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
If you moved the arc forward into the back of the contacts, you had GREAT light for awile.

Louis is right about the shallow f1 point. My fix for that is to mill/grind/slice off the same amount of the front of the contact assembly mount. This places the jaws forward and away from the new position of the arc.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 09-29-2006, 05:14 PM:

Why flog a dead horse? Replace 'em. Why in a tech heavy industry does anybody want to hang onto an ancient, dirty, troublesome technology which is becoming ever more difficult to keep supplied with high priced consumables of indeterminate quality. The coating of fine dust that settles on everything in the booth will be gone, and you know you are breathing the stuff. If you've got a box of Nationals, there is a list of all the nice things that are floating in your air.

[ 09-30-2006, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Bill Enos ]

Posted by Tony L. Hernandez (Member # 3524) on 10-08-2006, 01:14 AM:

To the original poster: Pardon my stupidity but I truly know nothing about Carbon Arc systems...would a Strong reflector specification 69 work for you? One of the theaters I work at has two or three of these new (well, not new...they are about 40 years old) and in the boxes. We stopped using carbons in the early 80s and finally tore out the old equipment in winter '03 so MAYBE I could talk the owner into selling you one or two,if you could use them.

And Mr. Enos, I thought you guys still had carbon arcs at The Byrd?!?!?

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 10-08-2006, 01:39 PM:

Strong reflectors won't work in an Ashcraft.
Bob

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-08-2006, 02:01 PM:

Achcrafts are neat lamps and put out really amazing light but todays prints are color balanced for xenon. Time to retire them.....

Mark

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 10-08-2006, 03:49 PM:

We're a changeover house that mostly shows classic movies. We've got a pair of DP-70s with Strong X-60 lamphouses that are not yet installed, in addition to a pair of R&R modified FP-20s with selsyns and interlocking controls and VFD speed control (I'm installing the latter this week).

We'd like to keep the Ashcrafts until it's onerous to do so. I've got a couple of good leads on mirrors that I'm following up on thanks to posts and e-mails from various Film-Techers, so they may have some more life in them yet.

[beer]

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-08-2006, 03:59 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
todays prints are color balanced for xenon

Most of what the Loew's is running is not todays prints. I've seen several Technicolor dye prints there, and they look incredible with carbon.

Todays trains and ships are driven by Diesel engines, but I think many people would be sorry if there weren't a few steam ones still to be seen working.

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 10-09-2006, 09:41 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
todays prints are color balanced for xenon.

In the early seventies there was a paper in an SMPTE Journal comparing xenon light with carbon. IIRC the conclusion was that there was a greater variance between two different mirrors with the same system than there was between carbon and xenon.
Bob

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 10-19-2006, 03:07 PM:

Does anyone know if the reflector from a Corelite lamphouse will work in a Super Corelite lamphouse?

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-19-2006, 10:53 PM:

Yes, I believe so. The "Super" designation indicated a top blower, with an improved reflector cooling circuit.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 10-19-2006, 11:38 PM:

The "Super" also means an 18" mirror instead of a 16", as well as 13.6mm positives [Smile]

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 10-20-2006, 07:04 AM:

We have one SUPER CORE-LITE and the douser has a hole in the center for longer carbons. This was done to facilitate carbon light with a platter and 20 inch long positives to run the show. It was even thought that you could automate the carbon lamp and then Xenon came along and changed everything.

All of our Ashcrafts use the same mirrors.

KEN

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-20-2006, 09:21 AM:

quote: Robert Minichino
The "Super" also means an 18" mirror instead of a 16", as well as 13.6mm positives

I have seen 13.6's in a regular Corelite... regular Cinex's, too.

EDIT: Okay, I did some research. Robert is indeed correct on the differences in reflector sizes (I checked the manuals here on Film-Tech!). [Wink]

Sorry about that, Mitchell. I was depending on information from my Cinex, Super Cinex, and Cinex Special manuals, which all show 18" reflectors... (??)

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-20-2006, 09:38 AM:

Mitchell, it's over three years since I've been up in the box at the Loew's, but haven't they got a 'non-super', regular Core-light on the Vitaphone projector? Can't you look at the mirror in that, to see if they're compatible; If it has a mirror in it?

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 10-20-2006, 11:19 AM:

Yup, I was just up in the booth last night and measured both the mirrors to be sure; the regular Core-lite mirror is definitely smaller (and ours has 11mm positive jaws).

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-20-2006, 12:39 PM:

Robert, have we met? You don't have a picture, so I can't tell. I've met three projectionists at the Loew's. Bernie was the first, when he was there, then I met Mitchell a day or two later, and more recently somebody else. Is the one who isn't Mitchell you?

I've just noticed that you're from Mahwah; are you also involved with the Lafayette, since it's very close to you?

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 10-20-2006, 01:29 PM:

Hi Stephen. I don't think we've met, and I generally don't do projection (just service). You probably met Scott on a day I wasn't in the booth (I've been there for almost all shows in the past year or so).

I haven't had a chance to visit the Lafayette yet, surprisingly enough, as I'm usually at the Loew's on Saturdays.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-21-2006, 06:44 AM:

The only time I've been at the Loew's during that time would be in May this year. The previous time would have been in April 2005.

Try to get to see a show at the Lafayette sometime. I've never seen a 3-D show there, they don't do them that often, but it should work much better there than in some of the other places where I have seen it done.

There's also the UCAC, in Rahway. I've only been there once, a couple of years ago. Quite a nice place, but they could do with putting a bit more light on the screen, unless things have changed since I was there.

That's three traditional style cinemas, showing classic films, within quite a small area. If anyone else is operating one, let me kwow, and I'll try to see it sometime.