Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Super Symplex Shutter problem....(updated)

This is topic Super Symplex Shutter problem....(updated) in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Kara Tillotson (Member # 3899) on 10-15-2006, 04:24 PM:

So Im posting for my manager bec he doesnt have an acocunt here yet.

there is a problem with our super symplexs shutter. Not the "main" one but whatever one it is that keeps movies nowadays from flickering like in old movies.

ETA
Apparently there are two gears, and these two gears no longer "meet"
thus the shutter wont work.
Do the gear teeth ever wear out or shift out of place?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-15-2006, 04:30 PM:

Rather than get too involved with expensive repairs with unavailable parts, now might be a good time for an upgrade to a projector made after 1935.
Let us try to solve your problem, but know that a commercial theatre could benefit greatly by a slight modernization. Louis (Hadden Theatre Supply)

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-15-2006, 04:34 PM:

That sounds more like a power supply problem. I have had that many times, that theaters complain about massive flickering and think it's the shutter, but shutters usually cause smaering and ghosting when they have a problem, not flickering. Unless it's really big and has long dark phases, of course.

In this case, is it flickering very rapidly, with machine gun like light impulses?

Posted by Kara Tillotson (Member # 3899) on 10-15-2006, 04:43 PM:

ok, sorry for the poor evasive explanation.
Apparently the "two gears" that the shutter has "arent meeting at all"
Im sure this makes more sense to you than me...

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-15-2006, 05:03 PM:

It would probably be best if you arranged for a service call by your service engineer

Posted by Kara Tillotson (Member # 3899) on 10-15-2006, 05:07 PM:

service engineer? whats that...
we dont have a service engineer.
Im just hoping someone has had this problem before and can walk us through fixing it.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-15-2006, 05:17 PM:

If from what it sounds like is a case of a gear mesh problem it is best to have it delt with by a profesional who knows what they are doing
It is possible but not advisable to try to talk someone through this as depending on the vintage some of those supers require a few specialized tools to repair properly
So I would advise calling your theatre supply dealer and have them send someone out

Posted by Kara Tillotson (Member # 3899) on 10-15-2006, 05:21 PM:

Theatre Supply Dealer?
Most repair people will want money, so thats not exactlly an option.
This theatre is pretty much run and maintained, and has always been run and maintained by the employees....
the one guy (former manager/projectionist)who was supposed to walk the projectionist through fixing it just had bypass surgery so cant help for a while (he managed the place for 20 yrs...)
The person who wil be working on it DOES know what they are doing, they just havent expirenced this specific thing before.
Its not like some randomn person is back there pushing buttons and yanking on stuff.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-15-2006, 05:49 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Rather than get too involved with expensive repairs with unavailable parts, now might be a good time for an upgrade to a projector made after 1935.

Man, do I disagree with that. Put a set of Posi-Trols on a Super and be very amazed. We have close to 30 Supers in 5 states still out there running just fine that have put out dam fine images for decades and continue to do so today. They just have to be oiled daily. I've seen many an X-L and Century running dry and the stars and cams of todays equipment are just about worthless. New or rebuilt doesn't guarantee a thing... it all in the person operating the booth.

Kara,
You will most likely HAVE to get a technician in for this one because its very possible that the shutter shaft may have become seized up causing the gears to strip. Its also possible that someone may have turned it over improperly.... by turning the shutter shaft instead of turning the sound reproducer flywheel... this can strip the gears.

We still have alot of heads to strip parts off of in the CLACO dungeon. You will probably need at least the G-87 double spiral bevel gear and the G248 fibre shutter drive gear. The G-87's are getting scarce as hens teeth! There may be more hidden damage than that but this is definately more technical than the average person should try to deal with. If you ruin the new parts.... oh well! Another option would be to get another Super head and just swap that out. Thats a job the average person probably could accomplish. A good mechanic for sure could.
Also, If you have to keep the old friends running watch E-Bay for used Super Heads... they can be very cheap to aquire on there and spare heads can be used for parts.

Mark

Posted by Kara Tillotson (Member # 3899) on 10-15-2006, 07:41 PM:

where does one go to locate a technician?
We are in northern michigan....

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-15-2006, 08:41 PM:

Kara, You have E-Mail

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-15-2006, 08:45 PM:

quote: Kara Tillotson
Most repair people will want money, so thats not exactlly an option.

As opposed to what, staying down? Operating a business takes money. Look at it this way; the fact that you're still running a Super indicates that you've gotten by without paying for upgrades for several decades. So you're well ahead of the game in the equipment expense department... moreso than most.

The expense of calling a service engineer at this point isn't too bad by any measure. [Wink]

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-15-2006, 08:59 PM:

Kara's profile has a link to her theatre's myspace page. It looks like the Vogue was closed down in 2005 due to the owner not wanting to spend $15K on emergency repairs. Then it re-opened in July 2006 following some renovation. There are some before-and-after pics of the concessions and other stuff, but I don't see anything about the booth equipment.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-16-2006, 08:38 AM:

Depending on the vintage of the super there were different gear train combinations used and it is possible that more than imediately apparent may have to be replaced
Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and have it repaired

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-16-2006, 09:16 AM:

I did not mean to infer that it was impossible to repair a Super; I did think that something "new" would bolt in place and give many years of service possibly without the expense of "service" from a person who might not have access to an unlimited supply of parts. Super parts, not made since the 70s, will only become more rare. "Film done right" sometimes must be done on a budget or incrementally. The theatre is better off with something that can be properly supported later.

Sometimes the amount of money spent is common to two solutions: one way, you are not improved; the other would leave you better off for the future. Louis

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-16-2006, 03:29 PM:

quote: David Stambaugh
it re-opened in July 2006 following some renovation. There are some before-and-after pics of the concessions and other stuff, but I don't see anything about the booth equipment.

I'm reminded of the old cartoon in Boxoffice magazine years ago. A manager is chiding his projectionist, "Don't bother me about your broken intermittent, Jensen. I've got problems with concession sales being down!"

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-16-2006, 05:49 PM:

There's always the one from the British movie "Big Time Operators" or "Smallest Show On Earth". Peter Sellers plays the operator and Margaret Rutherford the cashier. The new owners come to town and there is the usual staff bickering before the meet.

The cashier is complaining about getting poison for the rodents. Peter Sellers sez "My projectors are more important than your rats".

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-16-2006, 07:04 PM:

Yea, but in the end they kept the old projectors! Probably the rats too.... Didn't they install your reverse scanners on them Sam???

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-16-2006, 08:36 PM:

It was the Bijou Kinema set somewhere in industrial England and the movie was made sometime around 1960.

A must see for us lifers.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-16-2006, 09:03 PM:

Yea, a great film! Its available on DVD and the transfer is pretty darn good.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-16-2006, 09:24 PM:

The Bijou was a set on a soundstage regretably as one will n otice that the theatre has a balcony with a steep rake yet the booth machines are level

As to the super simplex they have outlived there usefullness and it is time to move on

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-17-2006, 01:37 AM:

Yea. great flik with Sellers as Mr. Quill - still wondering what kind of machines those were. (and do you have to spin the front shutter to get it going..??? .. wonder if they were Powers..)

...and the "Born Free" duo of Makenna and Travers became the rightful owners of the Bijou Kinema. (Dang.. too bad they couldn't have inherited the Grand...)

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-17-2006, 08:23 AM:

They were I believe Kalees with kalee vulcan lamps

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-17-2006, 08:47 AM:

I loved that show. [Smile]

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-17-2006, 10:55 AM:

I showed this movie at a theatre in Berkeley that was considered the Bijou of that town. We even had a fake missed changeover at one show to great applause.

Todays audience would just take such a mishap as routine.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 10-18-2006, 12:29 AM:

quote: Sam D. Chavez
We even had a fake missed changeover at one show to great applause.

Like letting the reel run out, and allowing the tail to be visible on screen?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-19-2006, 12:35 AM:

It was over 40 years ago but as I remember it, we showed some leader number on the incoming machine. The hip Berkeley audience picked it up in a second because in those days letter perfect shows were the rule not the exception even in the most humble cinema in town.

We had one of the best IA locals in California and a lot of great techs started there.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-19-2006, 09:39 AM:

Amen, Sam! Even in my small hometown of Winchester, KY. You absolutely did not have those kinds of problems. It was extremely rare, because the men working the booths had been there for decades.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 10-19-2006, 06:50 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Yea. great flik with Sellers as Mr. Quill - still wondering what kind of machines those were. (and do you have to spin the front shutter to get it going..??? .. wonder if they were Powers..)

I knew the projectionist on the set at Shepperton Studios, who showed Peter Sellers and Bill Travers how to lace and operate the projectors. He told me they were Kalee front shutter model 7 with Kalee Vulcan arc's.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050985/

A better DVD cover showing Margaret Rutherford as Mrs Fazackalee
and Bernard Miles as Old Tom.

[ 10-20-2006, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Bernard Tonks ]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-19-2006, 10:50 PM:

That's great info, Bernard, thanks! [Smile]

Posted by Kara Tillotson (Member # 3899) on 10-22-2006, 10:52 AM:

quote: David Stambaugh
Then it re-opened in July 2006 following some renovation. There are some before-and-after pics of the concessions and other stuff, but I don't see anything about the booth equipment.

I havent really put anything there about the booth equipment...I can actually do that today.The general public just seems more awestruck by the knocking out of a counter and replacing of gaudy blue paint with a deep red.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 10-23-2006, 06:17 PM:

quote: Sam D. Chavez
I showed this movie at a theatre in Berkeley that was considered the Bijou of that town.

c'mon sam, pony up! which theater are you talking about?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-24-2006, 12:33 AM:

It was the Berkeley on Shattuck half a block toward the UA from Haste. We didn't even have an ice machine and had to borrow ice from the UA every night. It was torn down perhaps eight years ago.