Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Making New Parts For Older Projectors

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 10-17-2006, 01:16 AM:

Hi All!

Knowing how scarce gears and what not are becomming for Standards, Supers, E-7s, etc rapid prototyping might be a good option for manufacturing new parts and gears.

In browsing through some model railroading web-sites I stumbled upon Pacific Locomotive Works www.pacificlocomotive.com who specialize in making wax investment patterns from 3-D Printer Rapid Prototyping Systems for the model hobby.

So, what it would take is for someone to compose an appropriate CAD 3-D Solid Model of the needed gear, then a rapid prototype wax model could be created and subsequently investment cast.

The nice thing about investment casting is that properly done, little to no secondary machining operations arre required.

This might be a good option considering the real pain in setting up specialized gear cutting machine tools.

Cheers

Kutler

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-17-2006, 08:53 AM:

Why go through the trouble and expense to keep clunkers running, when there are plenty of good late-model machines just sitting around at any Carmike theatre? [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-17-2006, 09:07 AM:

quote: Tim Reed
Why go through the trouble and expense to keep clunkers running, when there are plenty of good late-model machines just sitting around at any Carmike theatre?

Tim,

If you go to Carmikes web site and read the Christie/AIX contract you will discover that Christie has actually had to buy 1000 projectors from Carmike as part of "the deal". So you
are actually VERY unlikely to find any projectors sitting at a Carmike Theater.

Some of those clunkers are far better than alot of the new stuff being made today.

Producing parts for older projectors is only profitable if there are enough of those older projectors still around. The close to 100 DP-70's that I maintain are a good example of having enough machines around to have our own parts made. 35mm Sprockets, gate bands, lateral guides, curved runners, even the xenon lamphouse table are all new parts that we had made and keep in stock.

Mark

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 10-17-2006, 02:10 PM:

I also made some spare parts which I can't find in specialized shop's. But sometimes that in expensive because from bad part a new one must be created, and specially if is only just one or two spares needed!

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 10-17-2006, 10:09 PM:

Tim

You need to really explain your assessment of older Simplexes. Performance wise they'll beat the [bs]

out of most of the stuff built today. And those older Simplexes werenoted for rock steady images that would put Christie and others to shame!

The only thing about those older Simplexes is that they are meant to be run by experienced, professional projectionists. Older Simplexes would be destroyed in a heartbeat if left in the hands of todays popcorn/concession "shredders".

Kutler

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-17-2006, 11:42 PM:

quote: Will Kutler
Performance wise they'll beat the out of most of the stuff built today.

Will, I couldn't agree more! All the parts in those old machines also last longer. We have at least a dozen sites relying on Supers and E-7's that are run by popcorn shredders and they have absolutely no trouble with them. The fact that all thee old clunkers as some around here call em have made it this far in life speaks volumes about how good they actually are.

Mark

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-18-2006, 02:36 AM:

Sorry Mark and Will, I disagree. It's NOT worth ANY $$$ investment to "make" rare parts to support those obsolete POSs.

With the wave of change to "TV" (D-Cinema) in commercial theatres in MOST of the world, there will be a surplus of 35mm mechanical projectors that will hauled off to the junk yard, traded-in for credit towards TV projectors, and/or picked up very cheaply by die-hard "film collectors" for their personal use...or sold to 3rd-world countries that STILL use film.

Bottom Line: Mark, even your prized DP-70's WILL be junked! Sad, I know.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 10-18-2006, 04:03 AM:

quote: Phil Hill
even your prized DP-70's WILL be junked! Sad, I know.

This is coming in nearly future, sadly.... [Frown]

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-18-2006, 08:23 AM:

Phil, you are missing the point. Supers and E-7's = job security for Mark [Big Grin]

I trained on a Super when I was a teenager. I own one of the "rescued" heads, which sits on the shop floor so my shipping guy can trip over it weekly and cuss at it [Razz]

RIP

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-18-2006, 08:57 AM:

I absolutely agree that its not worth producing any Super or E-7 parts. Its a different case for the DP-70's though, we have to many to maintain not to have parts on the shelf. There are still enough NOS Simplex parts still on dealers shelves that if one scrounges one can find the part... usually with in an hour or two. I agree Digital is comming fast and I probably more than any here have already embraced it... I look foreword to not having to deal with oily messy projectors in the very near future.

Mark

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-18-2006, 09:10 AM:

So when do you predict that 35mm film will die in North America? Specifically when will new "films" no longer be available as a film print here?
Much like with digital TV broadcasting, the old system has to have an expiry date. Keeping print factories and film exchanges open to serve the holdouts who won't or can't convert to a video system makes no sense.
Charging what it actually costs to support them has same effect as shutting down the infrastructure - the uncompetitive ones will close and the rest will be forced to convert.
And Mark et al (me too!) will be in the same position as the horse dung sweepers after cars and trucks replaced the horses.
A good time to be in the scrap metal business?

<edit> Rereading I see Mark has embraced the future, so he is a bad example for the horse dung analogy. Apologies.

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 10-18-2006, 09:25 AM:

Dave--

In answer to your question... DCinema will here before you and
I are 'Pushing Up Dasies'. This whole thing is driven by GREED ! Now is the time to open up a scrap yard! [Smile]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-18-2006, 07:08 PM:

,..by the time 35mm completely dies for the cinema business, we'll be all pushing up dandilions for digital driven lawnmowers to mow down operated by the slave robots for the digital infected generations ahead of us have whom have finally invented and NEARLY perfected such a microcosm society...

In the meantime - Mark,I and others are well secured in taking care of film projectors and sound systems.

-Monte

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-18-2006, 07:15 PM:

YA know, Monte, at least Mark has a handle on, and is preparing for the future unlike many others here and in "the biz"... [Big Grin]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-18-2006, 07:18 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
So you are actually VERY unlikely to find any projectors sitting at a Carmike Theater.

There are 16 here in Allentown, in the theatre I service, just sitting around the booth (well, 4 are still in occasional operation, in tandem with DC machines, but you get the idea). And 8 more coming in Reading, in just a few weeks.

quote: Will Kutler
You need to really explain your assessment of older Simplexes.

quote: Will Kutler
Older Simplexes would be destroyed in a heartbeat if left in the hands of todays popcorn/concession "shredders".

Will, that is precisely my point. [Smile]

I've always been practical and a realist. Most existing installations of Supers that I've encountered in the last 10-15 years have declined to the point where "clunkers" is the operative term. [Wink]

As you know, real projectionists are few and far between these days.

Engineered better? I never said they weren't. [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-19-2006, 05:00 AM:

quote: Tim Reed
Engineered better? I never said they weren't.

Sad thing is that today engineering is at a pinnacle that never existed in the old days so projectors today should be better engineered but they are not for the most part. The problem today is that the quality of the individual parts is at an all time low and greed seems to prevail to get a new design in the booth way before it should even be into the testing stage on location somewhere. The Apogee Projector sure fits that last statement to a tee. Today parts are made from softer/poorer quality metals in order for them to be cranked out via cnc faster and allow to the tooling to last longer. I've personally compared the hardness of old parts vs. new parts on a brinnel tester myself... old parts are way, way better.

Tim, Funny... the only clunkers that I service regularly are Simplex X-L's that are oil bath and still don't last as long as an old Super or E-7, and an occasional Century that has been neglected. On the Simplex's it's generally a noisy movement, and sloppy upper and lower sprocket bushings... on the upper and lowers pulling the shafts out ALWAYS reveals a clogged oil spiral full of bronze particles..., just real poor design and a reason I always hated the X-L, those assemblies SHOULD have been ball bearing from day one! You rarely find this on an E-7 or Super unless its been sitting for a long period and the oil has evaporated in it which in that case just clean the spirals and re-oil... then return it to service for another 50 years.

Mark

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-26-2007, 07:54 AM:

Mark
Oil does not evaporate and if it does its not much!
Oil, is a complex mixture of hydrocarbons, that are entangled into each other. If there is any evaporation it is most likely the smaller less tangle hydrocarbons that were broken down from use leaving the solution, however the volume loss would be negligible. If you heat oil, you will not get it to evaporate any faster, mater of fact, it will ignite before it evaporates. I do know however that oil becomes rancid over time, some bacteria will grow in oil in the right conditions, as well as mold too. I think mostly the oil found its way to the floor via a porous casting.
Mike

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-26-2007, 08:01 AM:

Michael,

What ever it is in oil that evaporates(solvents most likely)it can literally glue a shaft into its bushing. Sometimes even removing a shaft in an arobr press is very difficult and may require many days of soaking in solvents to loosen it up. Same goes for grease. Today's range of synthetic lubes don't exhibit this problem. There are thousands of Christie projectors out there that have permanently filled intermittents(with synthetic oil) that have been running on the same oil fill for many years... some close to 15 now!!

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-26-2007, 08:31 AM:

Whenever this industry has a contraction (and it is now with digital displacing 35mm in some places) good equipment moves around displacing anything wierd (Motiograph, older Simplex, Wentzel, Brenkert, etc.) I believe I can see that whatever 35mm is still around in 25 years will be some style of generic Century/Simplex XL/clones/maybe Christie. The rest will perish and maybe that's good. There is already a severe decline in Ballantyne/Cinemeccanica/Tokiwa; all "modern" projectors who did not achieve "critical mass." Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-26-2007, 10:30 AM:

My observations mirror Tim's (same coast and nearly the same area so it makes sense)...The Supers and E7s still in service are mostly junk and only a shadow of their former selves.

As for XLs...I don't have the disdane Mark has for them and I also don't have the lubrication problems that Mark seems to have...in fact, XLs are THE machine around here that seem to run forever on original parts or damn near original parts. Centurys always seem to be chewing up main drives and wearing out shutter drives even if people don't change them when they should.

As to what will be around in film's demise...I think it will be the Kinotons, oddly enough. That isn't because of my fondness for them but due to the locations in which they seem to go in (in the States...this feeling has nothing to due with the rest of the World where things are probably different). Those theatres/screening rooms that plan to run film regardless of Digital's installations seem to be going the Kinoton route and have been long before they were marketed to the mainstream cinema in the USA. That is, when I look around the screening rooms around here, I see FP20s, FP28s, FP26s, FP23s, FP30s, FP38Es, FP38ES...even FP75Es for the 70mm crowd. When and if film is removed in mass as a thing of the pass...it will be the mainstream projectors that hit the dumpster en mass, not the machines in the special venues that will continue to run film.

Even their mechanical machines seem to last quite a bit with perhaps the intermittent bushing for framing being their weakest link. The electronic intermittent ones seem to keep evolving with 2007 marking the entry of the "Premiere" series that are 4-5 times steadier than their previous "E" intermittents that were many times steadier than anyone elses mechanical machines (including their own).

The best thing that Century and Simplex have going for them for longevity are that there are multiple sources for their parts...with Strong, Wolk and LaVezzi. Having to single-source is always a risky business.

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-26-2007, 11:04 AM:

Mark
If there is solvent in your oil then it not pure oil, but "watered down" or has additives, If you have parts that are stuck it maybe due to metal particles fussing over time while in the oil closing up the tolerance on one side of the part, this does happen just like a wedge then it is very hard to get things apart even with a press.

As for parts, I'm sure I could make a gear on my mill; I have a rotary indexing table, as well carbine tooling for cutting gears. But I would be using an old gear to go off of; also it would take me some time. So in the end I don't think it is worth it for me. If I thought it would be worth it I would keep my Super and not get the Century from Louis.
I once asked a local machine shop to make me a few fiber gears and brought them in to see if it was cost effective.
One of my hobbies is aluminum casting, I can get an investment casting and make aluminum gears, but I don't think that's a good idea either.
I think parts for Century and Simplex will be here for a long time as well as 35mm film. Even as digital takes over, our theater could never afford a digital! So making my own parts, (and I have) is very attractive.
Mike

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-26-2007, 12:01 PM:

FWIW, Kodak's print film sales this year continue to be very good. Even in the USA, digital cinema installs are still only about 10 percent of screens. All of Kodak's motion picture films are now made in Rochester, so manufacturing efficiencies are better than ever.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-26-2007, 01:52 PM:

quote: John Pytlak
All of Kodak's motion picture films are now made in Rochester

Yeah...home of the Redwings and Frontier Field!

Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 05-29-2007, 03:18 PM:

I changed to Simplex X-Ls from E-7s. The E-7s and Super Simplexes had very small heads and they were very difficult to keep clean. The X-Ls have the advantage of curved film traps -- which I find very useful with warped and older films. I have never had a moment's trouble with the X-Ls. The newer X-Ls seem flimsier than the older ones (IPC to Simplex 35) so I can't speak to the reliability of the newer machines.

The larger sprockets in the XL are more tolerant of torn film than the smaller E-7 sprockets, and I haven't had much trouble projecting shrunken prints. The XL gearing seems to have less backlash than the earlier machines. Most importantly, the shutter timing can be set without disassembling the shutter assembly.

If you unframe the image to show the framelines (or run a RP-40 test loop), the frames are rock steady -- especially with older prints that were copied more carefully than today's release prints. The XLs have the steadiest image I've seen outside of the Kinoton electronic intermittent.

In my humble opinion -- it would be hard to find a machine that had good parts availability coupled with relatively low cost on the used market that will match the XL mechanically. Proectors like the DP-70 are not easily obtainable and are pretty big. Things like Bauers, which are built like trucks have poor parts availability, and I think the Century projectors are just not as robust. So if the XL is a clunker --- let's hear it for clunkers.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-29-2007, 06:14 PM:

quote: Matthew Jaro
Proectors like the DP-70 are not easily obtainable and are pretty big.

Just let me know how many you want. We can have them dropped at your door. Doesn't get any easier than that [thumbsup]

.

Mark

Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 05-29-2007, 09:04 PM:

Gee, Mark -- If I had a dozen, I could thread up any film at the beginning of the show and run a 12 way automated changeover system. That way, I wouldn't need platters and I could just relax for the entire film. Hmm - I wonder how many processors have provision for Projector 3, Projector 4, ... ?? However, keystoning might be a problem with 12 projectors.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-29-2007, 09:23 PM:

Don't forget to reinforce the floor! Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-29-2007, 09:51 PM:

quote:
I wonder how many processors have provision for Projector 3, Projector 4, ... ??

Well the obvious one is the CP200. There are others however. Even the CP65 had a Dolby authorized moditication to allow up to 4 projectors (optical).

Electro-Sound had a multi-projector system that was, way-cool, in my opinion. Aside from the Nixi-tube volume readouts...the buss system they used could allow one to probably stack as many projectors as one needed.

If there was any demand, the Panastereo CSP1400 was designed but not yet implimented...it could handle up to 4-projectors.

Many a theatre had three projectors if they were 70mm equipped so that was somewhat common in the pre-Dolby days.

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 05-29-2007, 10:02 PM:

I have two AAII's for sale. One is a parts machine but most of the main parts are there and the other is a running machine. I kept one for myself and can't wait to set it up in my basement.

Last weekend I spent close to two days tearing out our kitchen for a contractor to come in and remodel. I spent another half a day taking one of the AAII machines in the basement with my hand cart by myself! I was soar as heck the day after moving the AAII but was never soar after the two days of tearing out the kitchen walls, floor and cabinets. Those things are freakin heavy!! The head was the worst part and that was even after removing the lens holder, door and mag head. My wife thought the house was going to cave in every time the hand cart wheels hit the next step and I was trying my hardest to let it down slowly. I should have gotten help I know but my size tends to make me overconfident. [Eek!]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-29-2007, 11:20 PM:

Moving a DP70 by yourself (from room to room, except on a dolly without any steps) is dangerous and frankly dumb. In the office, we have three remaining and they are all on dollies for moving. However, when we've installed them...you can't have enough people to handle them. As you've noted...the head itself is the toughest part...many curved surfaces and some may have oil on them.

In addition to the Mag assembly...loose the optical soundhead...there is another big heavy weight...plug it give you another good place for hand or a hoist strap...etc. Remember, if you get hurt moving one (or get yourself into a situation you can't get yourself out of...another person to get help ASAP is essential.

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 05-30-2007, 04:16 PM:

I set it up in the garage and then took it back apart to take it downstairs. I had to use my floor jack to get the head up high enough to pick it up. There was no way I could get my hands around it and into my lifting power zone when it was on the floor. Like you said, dumb. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-30-2007, 06:30 PM:

Josh... Congrats on getting the DP-70s! You now own the finest mechanical projector ever made [thumbsup]

. Keep the second... you may need the parts or perhaps completeing it would not be all that hard... let me know whats missing... Are yours single or two motor machines? Whats missing on the second machine? Any pictures?
I've moved em by myself before too but not down any large number of stairs. DOwn a few steps and into the back of a truck that had a lift gate. Its not all that bad with a heavy duty refregerator dolly... going down those wood stairs though [Eek!]

. You feel a big accomplishment after the move is done.
Also, what theater are they out of?

Mark