Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Increasing spool capacity on Westars

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 12-03-2006, 05:58 AM:

We have two Westar machines (installed in 1974) with 2000ft spool boxes. We want to increase the spool capacity to 6000ft on both machines.

What is the most economical way to do this? I understand that Kelmar supply spool arms but I have also been told that the existing reel arms can be extended using spacers and longer belts!

Any ideas guys?

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 12-03-2006, 06:08 AM:

Greetings Andy

Why not try getting in touch with my friends at Bell Theatre Systems? This is right down their street. They are at 020 8238 6000. They will know what will do the job.

From Cambridge, Good afternoon.

David

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-03-2006, 11:36 AM:

Would be one hell of a spacer! I've seen inch or so blocks put in to allow better clearance for change overs etc, but never anything to take a 2000' spool box out to being able to carry a 6000' spool.

Also the diameter of the drive pulleys on the take-ups is different, according to the size of spool in use.

As you rightly say, you can get Kelmar reel arms, they are not cheap.

I reckon the cheapest way would be to obtain a original 6000' Westrex boxes, or maybe 5000' and chop the sides off.

Sadly I weighed in trailer load of such things just a couple of weeks ago.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-03-2006, 01:10 PM:

Depending on the sizing of the 2000' spool boxes, removing the "cans" and installing a film cleaner bracket between the arm and projector can sometimes be enough room to accomplish what you need. That would leave you only needing to purchase the two lower arms.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 12-03-2006, 01:48 PM:

I've never seen a Westar projector with 2000' spoolboxes, were they not always 3000' capacity? I worked on the first pair of Westar's installed in the UK at the old Playhouse Hampstead, and they could hold 3000' of film, as could the Western Electric Universal base soundheads.

Look for a pair of Westar 5000' spoolboxes used for 3D, and take the boxes off which will then hold 6000' of polyestar stock, as Pete said.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 12-03-2006, 02:03 PM:

Thanks for the replies chaps!

And yes, you are indeed correct, Bernard, the spoolboxes have a 3000ft capacity (OK for joining two smallish parts together)! In reality, however, the opportunities to fill a 3000ft spool are fairly rare!

I'd happily go with the 5000ft Westrex boxes if any were available! I think it likely that we will have to buy either the Kelmar arms or similar devices made by Strong.

Next question: Anyone know of a good supplier of 6000ft spools? I suppose these will need to be floating hub?

Thanks once again for all your help.

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 12-03-2006, 03:04 PM:

Greetings Once again

I can refer you to my friends at Bell theatre systems. I recently bought some EZ hub 6000' spools from them. They work a treat!

From Cambridge,

Good night

David

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 12-03-2006, 04:31 PM:

You could also consider the Plastic Cinemaccanica 6000ft Spools available from Sound Associates Ltd, they are fairly cheap and have several Spindle adapters supplied with them.

I have used these on a Westrex 5000 Projector with no problems.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 12-03-2006, 04:31 PM:

Greetings David,

Thanks for your two replies. I have contacted the company you mentioned via email and I'll also give them a call during the week.

Many thanks for your responses.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-03-2006, 05:11 PM:

Ben, roughly how much do those cost (in US dollars)?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-03-2006, 05:15 PM:

quote: Ben Wales
You could also consider the Plastic Cinemaccanica 6000ft Spools available from Sound Associates Ltd, they are fairly cheap and have several Spindle adapters supplied with them.

A lot of places seem to use these; the interchangeable centres are useful if you need to move prints around between systems with different spindle sizes. However, I find that even if not removed they tend to work loose after a time; they either fall out, or rotate slightly, which at least with 9mm spindles means the spool won't fit on, which is annoying when you're holding a heavy spool overhead. Wrapping a layer of masking tape around the centre, and knocking it back in with a mallet or soft hammer seems to do the trick, at least for a while. The other thing I don't like about them is that it's difficult to see how close to the end of a reel you are with them. They're slightly larger than most 6ks, I was running a complete 85 minute feature, on polyester, on one yesterday; it was slightly over the edge, but ran ok.

I still find 2k spools much easier and more convienient to work with than larger ones though.

Why did the Westars have 3000 foot boxes? They would have been too small to join two 2000 foot parts, on triacetate, and the regulations still displayed in the Phoenix, east Finchley, though no longer applicable, specify that spoolboxes shall be constructed so as to contain no more than 2050 feet of film. Do these 3000 foot boxes post-date nitrate? If so, then surely just about everything would have been supplied in 2000 foot double reels by that time, so I can't see the point in going up to anything less than 4k. I think I've only once seen any 3000 foot spools. You might be able to fit two parts into them on polyester today, a lot of films seem to be printed in rather short reels today, but that obviously wasn't the original purpose.

edit.

Thought that's just occured to me; could it have been for mag striped Cinemascope prints?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-03-2006, 05:31 PM:

Stephen, can you measure the diameter of those reels in inches?

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 12-03-2006, 07:29 PM:

The Cinemeccanica plastic 6k spools are suitable for some projectors, print building and ideal for moving films in transit. However due to their construction they are very wide spools and cannot be used on Westar or Ross spoolboxes, even with the boxes removed. I'm projecting tomorrow so I will try and take some pictures of the spool.

To answer Stephen's question, the Western Electric Universal base soundheads of 1929 could have accommodated 3000’ had it been allowed and spools available, as films at that time were supplied in 1000’ reels. Same applies to the Westar projector in the UK (Century in the States), first manufactured in 1947 during the nitrate days. I seem to remember in the 1960s that there was some discussion of films being distributed with 3000’ reels.

During my time with Westar's for many years in three cinemas, I also had 3000’ spools which came in very handy for joining so many small reels together, particularly when the last reel was only 1000'.

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 12-03-2006, 08:11 PM:

The 18 inch (3000') magazines were fairly common on American projectors even in silent days.
Bob

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-03-2006, 08:51 PM:

3000 ft magazines were common as far back as W.E. Universal bases and were actually required to run 30 minute TV shows back when film was the originating media. (I Love Lucy, etc.)Louis

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-04-2006, 08:11 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
Stephen, can you measure the diameter of those reels in inches?

Inches! What are they? [Confused]

No problem Brad, the cinema's only five minutes walk down the road, so I went down there at lunchtime and measured one. Converting to inches they're just very slightly under 24 1/4.

A lot of places use them for building up half prints for transfer to towers; the exchangeable centres are quite useful if you have projectors and rewind bench with 9mm spindles, but a tower with 1/2 inch, for example.

They are quite robust, except for the centres working loose; if you don't need to change them then it's probably best to glue them in. If you bend the flanges inwards so they touch, or a similar distance outwards, then they just spring back. If you keep them bent for a long time, e.g. put them flat in a storeroom and pile heavy things on top of them for a few weeks, then they will eventually stay set like that. Yes, there are people who do that sort of thing. [Roll Eyes]

They're quite lightweight, the centres coming loose and the fact that you can't see how much film is left are the main things that I don't like about them. When the film gets beyond the holes in the flanges, there's probably about five minutes left to run, with polyester. We tend to use these for the second half of a feature, and for takeup, and use the Kinoton wire spools for the first half, so you can easily see how close you are to a changeover. Quite often the projectionist running the film won't be the one that made up the print, and won't have seen it before, so it's useful to be able to see easily how close to the end of the reel you are. I suppose you could machine away part of the flange, so you could see it, if this is a problem.

This is a picture of part of the spool:

You can just about see the removable centre, it's about an inch in diameter. This is a 9mm centre, and the drive pin hole falls half on the main part of the spool and half on the centre piece; this is why the spool won't fit on if the centre has rotated slightly. This wouldn't be a problem with a 5/16 hole with keyway; and I don't think it is with 1/2 inch, where the drive pin is further out. The Kinoton site lists both American and European spindles, so I think yours may be different to ours, but I don't know how.

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 12-04-2006, 04:01 PM:

Here is the Measurements I made with a Tape Ruler for the Cinemaccancia Plastic Spool in Inches.

Overall Diameter: 2' 2/16"

Centre Hub Overall Diameter: 5 5/8"

Flange Thickness Overall: 2 4/16"