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The vast majority of film I have is 1920s diacetate, nitrate and there are some triacetate also. None of which has ever been cleaned or treated. (!!!)

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FG works great with all film stock of nitrate, acetate and polyester - and even with 16mm and 8mm films as well..

..does great in slicking down and removing hardened gelatin from gate rails-shoot a bit on a rag and wipe the rails down.

You'll find that FG does quite a lot besides just cleaning and treating film. You'll love the stuff.

-Monte
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-28-2006, 02:59 PM:
 
You won't need a gallon. Just a normal quart kit will clean far more film than a gallon of anything else. Remember, it takes only about an ounce to properly clean a 2 hour 35mm feature.

FilmGuard already comes in a suitable spray bottle. You won't need any other container. The ideal method of application is to use a Kelmar web film cleaner, although many people do clean by hand, just remember the rag only needs to be barely damp, not wet or you will end up with a film so slick it will literally jump through the projector since there will be no friction to hold the image steady.

The media pads are designed to be used with the Kelmar film cleaner. Without the cleaner, the pads won't do you much good unless you want to try hand cleaning with them. I've never tried that personally. They cannot be rewashed, but the average theater reuses the pads for about 35 passes before throwing them away. There are 8 sets of pads per box at approximately 16.5 feet in length.

If you desire to clean a film with both of those products, clean with FilmRenew first, then apply FilmGuard last before projection.
 

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Posted by Darren Michael Nemeth (Member # 3318) on 12-28-2006, 04:39 PM:
 
Thanks for the reply.

I have one of those Universal Film Cleaner devises sold by eBayer "kinemaman" from time to time. Looks almost like a Kelmar.

I figure I can at least McGyver the pad rolls to work with it.

Will need more than a quart, too, because nearly all the triacetate has very early stages of VS and all will have to be soaked.

Some of the 1920s stuff has slight water damage in spots. I am afraid emulsion may lift if in contact with liquid. Is Film Guard safe in this application?

What about the emulsion lift in spots with early stages of nitrate decomp?

Nearly all my pre 1930s prints are very dusty and dirty. None will ever be projected, either.

WIll order tomorrow. Thanks!
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-28-2006, 08:45 PM:
 
The media pads do work for hand cleaning. Just cut them up into small strips, dampen with FG, and then rewind the film through them. I've done this before and it works fine.

The Kelmar cleaner works better and provides more even application, but isn't absolutely necessary to use the product.

I have used FG on early diacetate 16mm prints and it works well. Maybe someone else has tried it on nitrate.
 

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Posted by Darren Michael Nemeth (Member # 3318) on 12-28-2006, 08:53 PM:
 
What about spots where the emulsion has lifted from the stock?

Will Film Guard be okay or smear these sections off?
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-29-2006, 03:04 AM:
 
The sad thing about VS is that once the degrading begins, it's irreversable due to the beginning decomposition of the acetate stock when moisture mixes with the acetate ion in the celluose to create acetic acid-hence the "vinegar syndrome".

Only way to slow down VS is to have the prints well ventilated so air can move around. But if the containers are sealed, put those silca gel packets, or those KODAK molecular sieves in the containers to absorb moisture.

quote: Darren Michael Nemeth

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Some of the 1920s stuff has slight water damage in spots. I am afraid emulsion may lift if in contact with liquid. Is Film Guard safe in this application?

What about the emulsion lift in spots with early stages of nitrate decomp?

Nearly all my pre 1930s prints are very dusty and dirty.

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quote: Brad Miller

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the average theater reuses the pads for about 35 passes before throwing them away.

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Hmm, and I've been tossing them after 1 pass, on each side. Total of 6 films cleaned. If this is the case, next year's box should last a good while. Yeah, I'll be changing to a new box of pads on the new year. And a new bottle FG if timing works out right. Good tip on the water damag bit, I have some film that came in to my possession because it's water damaged, but it hasn't been unrolled yet, so maybe I'll try a lil FG on its edges.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-29-2006, 02:13 PM:
 
For water damage you will need to apply FG liberally to the top edge with the film roll laying horizontal, as in sopping wet and let gravity pull it in, then flip the reel and repeat before unrolling.

It is also recommended if the water damage is bad to apply FG between rewinds as you are unrolling it too.

In the instance of a platter print with a roof leak and a rainstorm, clamp the print and flip it upside down. Apply liberally (spray FG onto a folded up paper towel and wipe so the top is very wet), let it sit for several minutes, flip the print back, wet down the top edge, then as it is paying out to the projector make sure you have a freshly saturated online cleaner. I've saved a couple of dozen prints that would've been junk this way due to roof leaks.
 

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Posted by Dave Ritchie (Member # 4030) on 12-29-2006, 02:43 PM:
 
I was hoping to buy a media cleaner for my screening room but this is just not possible on my budget at this time- if i apply film guard by hand how affective is this and what is the best way to apply it?

[ 12-29-2006, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 12-29-2006, 07:04 PM:
 
Dave, get a web style, like a Kelmar, cleaner, not PTC or PTR style cleaners. The media used in the PTR is reusable after a simple washing, but it doesn't outweigh it's shortcomings.

I have used both types, and despite some minor issues with our own cleaner (missing parts), I am much more pleased with our Kelmar than the PTC cleaner. Not to say you can't find a similar cleaner by another brand, that's just what we have. We also use filmguard here, which I have no complaints about. The media we have now is filmtech media, which works great, but the plastic spools that it comes on don't want to fit over the rubber piece on the rewind shafts on the cleaner, though ours may be swollen from age. (BTW, anyone know where I can get the replacement rubber bushings at?) I prefer the cardboard spools that came with the previous brand of media, it fits better.
 

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Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 12-29-2006, 09:34 PM:
 
I started off using Filmtech media pads for a single pass. Then this site told me that I could turn them around. Then others told me that I could run them several times. Then it was revealed that they could be cut in half.

If these tips continue, they may outlast film itself.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-30-2006, 02:07 PM:
 
..Same as what I would do - cut down media to fit the film being cleaned and would turn the media around to use the other side. Also, if the media wasn't that all dirty, I would use it over for a few times.

Yea,PTR units.. - does exactly what the term stand for: Transfers Particles from one end of the print to the other end.

..may work for IMAX prints, but doesn't cut it for standard prints.
 

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 12-30-2006, 03:55 PM:
 
I am the only operator at my theatre that is allowed to handle the film cleaning equipment due to the screw-ups of others!

We have 2 Kelmar cleaners, and use the F-T media rolls with the FilmGuard. I usually clean each print twice. Once in awhile, 3 times.

Our presentation is absolutely dirt and scratch free. A little FG goes a long way. You really dont need a gallon!
 

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Posted by Amanda Mundin (Member # 3386) on 12-30-2006, 04:44 PM:
 
Can the kelmar film cleaner be used with film running backwards? i.e. when rewinding
Also can it be run at a higher speed than 24 fps, when running film from reel to reel without running through the projector?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2006, 02:09 AM:
 
Yes and yes, but I would recommend you try and limit it to 3X normal projection speed for the best cleaning job.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-31-2006, 02:18 AM:
 
Wasn't there some Kelmar workbenches have that hole right above the variac assembly on the edge of the tabletop that a bracket could be fitted on the table to mount these Kelmar media cleaners on for cleaning while inspections, or assemblies of prints on the big reels?
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-31-2006, 02:31 AM:
 
i certainly have used a kelmar cleaner between rewinds. it was a used b&w print that was shedding something crazy. i continually sprayed naphtha onto the pads as it whizzed by. (since we're not allowed to use film-guard ( ).)
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-31-2006, 03:25 AM:
 

quote: Carl Martin

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I continually sprayed naphtha onto the pads as it whizzed by. (since we're not allowed to use film-guard)

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...NOW, that is the worst no-brainer that I have ever heard of: using a highly flammable substance up in the booth that emits a vapor that is somewhat toxic as well...in as well as using it on prints that would dry the crap out of prints since it adsorbs all sorts of oil!

(Ever hear of cigarette lighter fluid-same stuff - all naptha..just a substance that doesn't belong in any booth)

"Ka-BOOM!!" ... "Wooo! ..love the new mullet that you suddenly sporting there!"

Dont get me wrong now. Namptha is great for getting grease, gum and other sticky stuff off of surfaces, in as well as getting road tar off of the fenders of vehicles....but just not for cleaning film in a closed working environment....

Ever see how your fingers get all white and flaky looking from all of the skin oils being purged from the skin by using namptha? Then, think on how the film feels since it's going the same way.

(..hope the owner of this complex has good liability insurance..time to find another complex to work at...)

(geez....!!) - Monte
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2006, 03:51 AM:
 
Here is a 70mm cleaner modified to run 16mm or 35mm film mounted on a Kelmar rewind bench in a rigged fashion.



Neumade actually now makes an official film cleaner bracket for their Ultra II table too.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-31-2006, 04:00 AM:
 
How did you make the flanges of the large drive drum come together so that 16mm can be driven across the edge rubber tires? Is there a spacer that can be switched out to bring the flanges closer together?

thx-Monte
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 12-31-2006, 05:11 AM:
 
Not allowed to use FG? I can see them not wanting to buy it because they're cheap bastards, but outright forbidding its use? Crazy. Strange that they'd let you use charcoal lighter fluid. Naptha truely is wonderful stuff, and I find more uses for it everyday, but I'm also cautious with it. I don't think I'd even consider using it on film. Sounds like your company may have it out for film tech. I mean, at least use C-lube then, though I'm sure Brad will hate me for reccommending it. Well, recommending it only if FG is specifically prohibited, and not all cleaner/lubes, because its gotta be better that naptha.

If you really want to use flammible/toxic solvents on your film, we still have a full can of Renovex sitting on our shelf collecting dust. At least it's designed for film use. I don't plan on using it.

Serously, start sweet talking them into allowing some kind of cleaner/lube for your film.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-31-2006, 09:55 AM:
 
Actually hydro naptha is a commonly used film cleaner in many film labs

http://www.sanlabsystems.com/
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 12-31-2006, 12:07 PM:
 
Probably a different formulation, I'm sure. Like the labs using PTR cleaners to clean the film. Their PTRs are huge, and are much different from the ones we get, so I thinking the Naptha is the same, but could be wrong. I'd still shy away from it if I could find something better or safer.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-31-2006, 01:38 PM:
 
Actually the labs use the same ptrs that theatres use
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2006, 02:52 PM:
 
There is only one company that bans the use of FG, and it is purely a retarded issue.

Anyway, to modify a cleaner you just remove the spacer from in between the two flanges, mount the spacer on the outside of one of the flanges using extra long bolts and then insert an appropriate amount of washers between the flanges (using those same two extra long bolts). Look closely at that picture, you will see the 70mm spacer on the operator side of the two flanges, instead of in between the two flanges.
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 12-31-2006, 03:46 PM:
 

quote: Gordon McLeod

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Actually the labs use the same ptrs that theatres use

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quote: Phil Hill

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Yeah, it does seem strange that someone would be looking for the specific patent. In my experience, those asking for a particular patent are basically trying to circumvent it and make a similar product.

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Hence why I was real cautious about what I said. That and it's not my forums or product, so best to refer him to somone who is responsible for it.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-02-2007, 09:30 PM:
 
I merely made a comment/observation.

I think Brad would have something to say about an imposter/someone stealing his formula and namesake and making/selling a similar product.

(Edit to correct wrong spellings)

[ 01-03-2007, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Phil Hill ]
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-02-2007, 10:32 PM:
 
check here

click


 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 01-03-2007, 08:05 PM:
 
Oooh, and it features some personal info on Brad. What's the A stand for? Adam? Alex? Anthony?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-04-2007, 04:05 AM:
 
My aren't you oddly interested. I will let Phil analyze that one.
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 01-05-2007, 03:22 AM:
 
Idle curiosty, I assure you. That and a poor sense of humor.
 

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