Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kelmar reel arms

This is topic Kelmar reel arms - compatible spools? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 01-02-2007, 02:52 PM:

We've just purchased two sets of Kelmar 8000 spool arms and we are now looking for compatible spools. Our supplier showed me some very wide plastic spools (not Cinemeccanica) but they seemed to bind slightly against the bootom bracket of the spool arms. Are Cinemeccanica plastic spools different?

Our supplier has suggested the 'wire type' made by Kinoton.

Any reccomendations?

Also, as we will be fitting the arms to Westar projectors, is it considered better to use V type belts rather than the roundthane types as supplied? Is it difficult to fit a one-piece belt to this particular machine?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-02-2007, 05:07 PM:

Kelmar spindles are not known for being fussy about their reels (spools). Did you get the ones with 5/16" spindles or 1/2"? In the USA, we use Goldberg mostly though Neumade also makes reels here. With the Dollar/Euro or Dollar/GBP, there could be advantages to using the American goods at the moment! I don't think Kinoton offers a wide variety of spools to fit American spindles...they mostly have 9.2mm and 12.7mm (1/2").

As to belts...I much prefer "V" to roundthane. Generally, with the tensioner...it isn't very hard to fit a V belt...one also gets much more life out of a V belt too.

Steve

Posted by Raphael Friedland (Member # 3453) on 01-02-2007, 05:13 PM:

JUST FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE 9.2=3/8"

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 01-03-2007, 03:42 AM:

I make it 9.525mm. Of course, these are all nominal sizes; the size of the spool hole is always going to be greater than the spindle diameter.

3/8" Kalee spools will fit on a 9mm spindle, though I think they are a very slightly looser fit. I haven't tried putting a 9mm spool on a 3/8 spindle.

Kinoton list both European and American 12.7mm (1/2") spindles for their machines, but I don't know what the difference is. Since the spindle itself is not likely to be different, I assume that it's the size, or position, of the drive pin. Could somebody measure these on an American spindle or spool for me please? Also, how many drive pins do you have, and how many holes in the spool to take it (them)? I am aware of three different types of 1/2" spindles, but I don't know if any of those are the American type. Why on Earth can't they standardise these things? Obviously something bigger than a 5/16" spindle would be needed for large spools, but do we really need:

5/16" with key (common on American machines).
5/16" with drive pin (some early machines).
5/16" with square (like 16mm, but also used for 35mm microfilm).
9mm with drive pin (some European machines, e.g. Kinoton).
3/8" with drive pin (Some British machines, e.g. Kalee).
1/2" with same drive pin as 3/8" (seen once, on a GBN portable).
1/2" with larger drive pin, at greater radius (towers).
1/2" as above, with two drive pins (mainly dual-gauge machines).
Something much bigger, about 25mm (Fedi Solo).
Something completely weird (BTH Mk.1 SUPA).

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 01-03-2007, 04:40 AM:

Having read the earlier posts regarding spindle diameters, we decided to get 1/2" centres!

I do like the idea of using the Cinemeccanica spools, since they seem well-made and inexpensive. Ideally we would go for the Goldberg units but, especially in the UK, these seem very costly.

Can anyone comment on the Kinoton wire spools?

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 01-03-2007, 05:38 AM:

Kinoton can handle up to 80 minutes. They are very robust as long as you don't throw them down an aisle or something. You need to order the fix spindle hole unlike the Cinemeccanica which offers the 3 different sizes and you just push in the one you want. The only drawback I find on the Kinoton is that you have to use some masking tape to keep the film on the spool at the start unlike the Cinemeccanicas where you bend the film at the edge and insert it in the slot. Any of the two will do just fine. The Cinemeccanica though, because they are "plastic" (not really plastic) the spindle area wears out after a lot of use and if you are slam the rewinder full speed everytime without accelerating and deccelerating. You don't have that problem with the Kinoton ones since they are "metal". Another drawback on the Cinemeccanica is that the last 4-5 minutes of film are not vissible so you really don't know exactly how much film you have left. The Kinoton ones have full film view from start till end. Summing up the above, you won't regret any of them! Both are Excellent choices.
Demetris

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-03-2007, 06:25 AM:

The European dog pin is indeed larger than the American one. As for standards...the American reels are made to an ANSI/SMPTE standard (241, I believe). What you want is an International standard....that isn't going to happen in a metric versus English measure.

As to slots in the reel hubs...I HATE them....I wish none existed. There is no reason for them except to tear the ned of the film...Get one wrap around the hub and let friction do the rest.

My only experience with Kinoton reels are their larger reels for their Spool Towers (SPT-5000K)...we got the "fancy" ones that are chromed. They seemed to be quite well built and at the time cost less than Goldberg...even with the exchange rate and freight. Anyway...I had no real complaints with them...they were actually pretty cool.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 01-03-2007, 07:21 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The European dog pin is indeed larger than the American one. As for standards...the American reels are made to an ANSI/SMPTE standard (241, I believe). What you want is an International standard....that isn't going to happen in a metric versus English measure.

We managesd to get an international standard for 8mm, Super-8, 9.5 and 16mm. 17.5mm Pathe Rural spools were the same in all countries, though there were other older 17.5mm formarts, and I've no idea what they used. Other odd gauges like 28mm were only used by one company, and I suspect that they were universal. The Pathe Rural system had an odd international incompatibility, some countries used a 20 frame optical sound advance, and some 26 frames; don't ask me which was which! [Roll Eyes]

quote: Steve Guttag
As to slots in the reel hubs...I HATE them....I wish none existed. There is no reason for them except to tear the ned of the film...Get one wrap around the hub and let friction do the rest.

I agree there is no reason for them, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I hate them; they don't do any harm if you don't use them, and hardly anybody seems to. [Smile]

quote: Steve Guttag
My only experience with Kinoton reels are their larger reels for their Spool Towers (SPT-5000K)...we got the "fancy" ones that are chromed. They seemed to be quite well built and at the time cost less than Goldberg...even with the exchange rate and freight. Anyway...I had no real complaints with them...they were actually pretty cool.

I've only used the 6k ones, they are also chrome.

I think most of the advantages and disadvantages have been covered, either here or in the other thread on the Cinemeccanica ones a week or two before Christmas. There's no point in repeating them, but I'll add just a couple more. Both types are quite lightweight compared to other types of spools, and have no sharp edges. The Kinoton ones are quite rigid, more so than they look, and do not bend easily, but if you do manage it they stay bent. The Cinemeccanica ones are much less rigid, but the plastic is quite springy; unless you keep them in a bent state for a long time, or expose them to very high temperatures, they will just spring back if you bend them. The Cinemeccanica ones will hold just slightly more film, an extra two or three minutes maybe.

I wouldn't say either has any great advantage over the other, though they are very different.

At the Clocktower we have four of the Kinoton ones and about ten of the Cinemeccanicas, including a couple needing repair because the centres have fallen out. I tend to use the Kinotons for the first half of prints, and the Cinemeccanicas for the second half and for take-up, simply because it's easier for a projectionist who doesn't know the film, and hasn't seen it before, to see how long they have to a changeover.