Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Console versus Lamphouse

This is topic Console versus Lamphouse - any suggestions? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-08-2007, 10:55 AM:

I'm working with some folks who are looking to build a new drive-in theatre and they're looking to me for suggestions on equipment.

At my theatre, I have separate lamphouses on pedestals with the rectifier over in the corner. Two of the newest drive-ins I've been to lately use 4kw Strong consoles. Is it just a matter of convenience to have everything in one unit as opposed to individual parts and pieces like I have, or a preference to one versus the other?

Pro's or cons on either?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-08-2007, 12:16 PM:

Separates are absolutely the superior method if optimization is critical. First, you may choose the individual components that you feel are the best in each category.

Next, you will have a much more difficult, if not impossible time aligning a console with the degree of accuracy that one can achieve with a separate system. Certainly the model of pedestal and console have a great affect on this.

Consoles normally do not hold the projector with as much stability as a pedestal. Normally the plate the arm for the projector mounts to will flex. I can't tell you how many times I've seen console mounted blowers put a vibration all of the way to the projector and cause image stability issues.

Schleping factor...it is easier to move separates...particulalry if stairs and turns are involved.

Service...normally separates are easier to service and in the event a component needs to be replaced due to age, improved technology, complete failure...only that component needs to be changed. How often have you seen a pedestal fail? Lamphouses age the fastest though transformers can become hummy.

Where consoles win are in hooking it all up. Just attach the 3-phase and you are done. Then again, much of the internal wiring often could be improved upon for good service life. This presumes that the automation and such are also in the console. If not, then the console isn't really all that much faster there either. How long does it take to connect the motor, changeover and lamphouse contactor wires? We are talking about hours, not days extra work.

For me at least, the console has many more negatives that more than offset any positives it may bring. Check out the South Branch Cinema 6 photos in the gallery here....you will see most manufacturers represented and it remains an extremely reliable booth to this day.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-08-2007, 01:33 PM:

but, big question: Is the platter for this one house BEHIND the amp rack? If so, wonder why of that horrible decision to do such an install?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-08-2007, 03:05 PM:

Monte, are you referring to the South Branch? If so, why don't you make sure you know what you are talking about before you speak? The platter is where it is because that is where it fit best. Look at the space between the rack and the wall...it is super easy to thread behind it (just walk through) and there are support rollers to prevent film sag.

As to the non-op side...sorry, no room for the platter...there is a wall there (and then the electrical distribution room for the theatre complex). In any event, there have been no mishaps or complaints about it. While it isn't my preferred place, it was appropriate for this situation.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-08-2007, 03:22 PM:

Gosh Steve, what a clean installation...nice!

But, I have to confess, I was a little shocked to see the platter. I would have thought you would have done change-over booths. [Wink]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-08-2007, 06:39 PM:

It is always my first choice Phil...and definately the majority of what I install (changeover). Someday I'll do an upload of the AFI/Silver. Theatre #1 (The Historic) has four film projectors and one DLP. It can run 16, 35 and 70mm. It can run two prints or make 2-strip 3-D changeovers. The other two screens have a mere 2-projectors each (35/16) and a DLP.

Steve

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-08-2007, 07:16 PM:

Steve; I agree with all of your points. However, I reached the opposite conclusion on each point. Since every system currently made today was originally made to be a console, then it follows if you take-it-apart that it will work similarly well as seperates.

Really, if there is already a base, I will leave it and use it. If no base, I will go console because of the quick installation and the possibility to prewire and reduce the dependence upon an electrician who is either expensive or worse...not there u ntil next week.

A decent drive in installation is an easy 1-day job with adjustment on screen by midnight. Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-08-2007, 08:36 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Since every system currently made today was originally made to be a console

Ooooo...please explain that one. Are you implying that the projectors, soundheads or whatever somehow console biased? There is nothing inherently better about the console and in fact, they tend to be the source of how to cut costs on making the support and light path. They merely give the illusion of speed and ease of installation.

quote: Louis Bornwasser
I will go console because of the quick installation and the possibility to prewire and reduce the dependence upon an electrician who is either expensive or worse...not there u ntil next week.

Okay...I gave you the speed of wiring if the console contains the automation and that one may spend an hour or two wiring the projector/changeover/rectifier switch leg....but the rest of your statement is bogus because:

You can prewire a pedistal too (we do) (and even do a rough alignment if it is benefitial).

The electrican thing is also no better for the console. There are two means we will wire a system in...if the electrican can't be timed at all or may be difficult to work with...we merely specify NEMA outlets to provide and we bring in equipment with twist lock plugs to make it "plug and play." However, normally we can work with the electrican and give them the option of landing all of the high-voltage stuff or give them the option of us landing it and they inspect it prior to closing it up. It goes very fast, either way. Again, what are we talking about for a console/pedestal system? A 3-phase circuit and two 120V 20A circuits or so. This just isn't a great amount of time.

The net result is a better aligned system and normally more bang for the buck unless you believe one manufacturer really makes the best of EVERYTHING. Separates also normally take up less space too.

I can fully appreciate those that have zero time available and aren't going to be paid enough to put in whatever system they install going for the cheapest fastest system possible. The exhibitor that forces this situation deserves the least...that is what they are paying for.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-08-2007, 11:47 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Someday I'll do an upload of the AFI/Silver.

I was impressed with the stories in either Boxoffice, or the NATO Focus magazine (can't remember which one) on the preservation of the AFI/Silver Theatre - on how it was so close to demolition to being a full restored theatre. My congrats to this effort.

(sorry Steve in not making my topic reply on the booth layout more definite, but just wonder why the platter wasn't put in place of the amp rack so the film path could be shorter so the operator could catch the rewind platter deck, incase of a mistart being of the STRONG variety.. but who asked me on that install ...)

thx-Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-09-2007, 08:55 AM:

Monte,

I generally try to have the operator come to the port with both the projection and sound within arm's reach. The platter being beyond the rack is of no consequence. If you are waiting by the projector when the tail runs through, you can still catch it and walk it through. Again, a decent amount of space was left between the wall and the rack so even "plus sized projectionists" may pass through.

As to the Strongness (actually Potts brand here) of the platters...the projectors have a nice slow ramp up time so start up is never an issue.

The owners of the theatre also keep everything up real well. They are farmers primarily and understand the value of keeping equipment in good repair rather than paying big bucks to prematurely replace it. They Film Guard all their prints and that has lead to incredibly long skate/runner life in the Kinotons too.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-09-2007, 08:57 AM:

I prefer my platter locations on the non operator side of the screen. Having installed a zillion Potts type platters, projectionist training + slow start on the projector, we are not chasing the disk or stepping on film in front of the view window. Our exception is during film fests with a Union operator so he can closely monitor "a one time only" presentation....or if we run out of booth space [Smile]

We forget another nice option, the column style on the Kinoton FP, real rapid and easy to install. [beer]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-09-2007, 09:23 AM:

Being an independent, I started with someone else's cast-offs, and upgraded as I could afford it over the years. If I had the money to get the "ultimate system" in one purchase, then run it until the whole thing died, maybe I'd look at a console... but it would have to be pretty impressive. I doubt I'd touch a vertical lamp version though.... especially not for a drive-in... and I'd sure be bummed if a major upgrade came along in 5 years or so that I couldn't get because the console boxed everything in.

When I bought my place, 2 of the projectors didn't belong to the theatre. I replaced them with Brenkerts & RCA soundheads.

Over 20 years, the soundheads went to Simplex, the projectors went from various Brenkert models to XLs, my lamphouses went from ORC to X-60 to Ultra-80 (on one) to Big Sky on all 3 and my power supplies went from ORC to Strong to Strong switchers. We've gone from white light to red reader and added digital.

If we had started with everything in a 20 year-old console, that might have been problematic. Today, the only original equipment here are those bases!

I can see this being a personal experience kind of choice... but the pedestal-method seems to have worked best for me.

As for drive-ins in general: I've looked at a lot of the photos on that "drive-in site", and I could probably count on one hand the number of booths that use consoles. I suppose that's partly because a lot of them are 40+ year-old converted arc systems?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-09-2007, 09:49 AM:

Agreed with Phil--that's a very nice installation, Steve!

From the point of view of an operator, I prefer separate bases and lamphouses, as that arrangement is usually less bulky, especially in small booths, especially if the rectifiers are installed in an adjacent room, rather than next to the bases. It is also easy to adjust the projection angle by turning the big wheel--this may be important in theatres with top masking for some formats or in older theatres with a front screen and a rear screen.

Note that some bases are better than others--the Century models make it very easy to align the lamphouse to the projector, whereas the Simplex LL-2 and Motiograph models don't allow the lamp table to be adjusted independently.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-09-2007, 11:52 AM:

Richard, I agree on placing the platter on the Non-op side of the projector for most booths. At South Branch, only 2 could not due to walls/stairway being in the way.

I have mixed views of the rectifiers being beside the projector and in another room. Adjusting the rectifier in a different room makes setting the current more guess work. Also it has the heavy guage wire going the longest.

As to the LL-2 you have limited lamp table adjustments and with washers (and possibly longer screws) you have a little more adjustment. However, I agree, the LL-2 is not my favorite pedestal. I like the Century, the LL-1 if someone else is carrying it and Ballantyne 2500B. I'd like the Ballantyne more if its adjusting nut would be a wheel instead.

Steve

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-09-2007, 12:24 PM:

Out of the almost 100 screens I service, I only have one pedistal/lamphouse (I don't know why this one screen is different from the rest in that building). In general, I have no problems with consoles.

quote: Steve Guttag
Separates are absolutely the superior method if optimization is critical. First, you may choose the individual components that you feel are the best in each category.

I have seen Christie consoles with Christie projectors but CNA automation, Christie consoles with Simplex and Century projectors, and even Strong consoles with Irem power supplies. I don't purchase equipment, but my understanding is you can specifiy whatever equipment you want and if it comes from a manufacturer other than the console manufacturer, it will be shipped to the console manufacturer and installed before the console is shipped to your theater.

quote: Steve Guttag
Service...normally separates are easier to service and in the event a component needs to be replaced due to age, improved technology, complete failure...only that component needs to be changed. How often have you seen a pedestal fail? Lamphouses age the fastest though transformers can become hummy.

No, I don't see how a pedistal would fail. But if something in the lamphouse fails (the reflector, ignitor, etc...) wouldn't you replace that component rather than the whole lamphouse? And if a console power supply fails it can be replaced, too. I don't see how service is an issue.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-09-2007, 12:42 PM:

Ken, the components that a console replaces are the pedestal, the Lamphouse and the power supply. The projectors/automations and most anything else that can be thrown into a console make no difference.

I don't find anyone's console to perform as well in the lamphouse department, even with the same optics...the alignment is much more difficult to get right....if close is all that is desired, then consoles can do.

I like the support of the pedestal better for the projector...less flex...especially compared to those consoles that use aluminum plates for the projector support plate.

As to rectifiers...there are many out there why necessary buy the one that comes in the cabinet with the lamphouse and pedestal?

As for service...yes you can change individual components but I find that physically, it is often much easier to work in separates though there are some exceptions.

For all their extra girth, consoles don't bring any performance improvement to the table.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-09-2007, 12:57 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
For all their extra girth, consoles don't bring any performance improvement to the table.

Maybe they were the result of a sinister plot by the manufacturers, to make it easier to sell "plug n play" packages. I remember how quickly a VIP console could go into a booth... though that says nothing about how well the attached projectors usually worked.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-09-2007, 06:25 PM:

It isn't a plot. It has to due with time and in particular...time on-site. Furthermore, it has to do with skill too.

With a console, you reduced the burden on-site by not needing as skilled a technician or the coordination of trades furthermore, you place much of the installation burdon on the manufacturer.

A friend of mine took it so far that just about all functions were in the console. The electricans were given a large JBox on site so that as each piece of the theatre was installed, the wires could be landed. Things such as overhead lights, masking motors...projector power....you name it. Then the console comes in with a pig tail with the greenfield attached with wires just numbered....all you have to to is match the numbers in the Jbox (everything was on terminal blocks)...turn on the power and whola...you are up and running.

The manufacturer was also responsible for pre making all of the audio interconnects between the console and the sound system, if the sound system was not in the console.

This takes the local tech's skill out of the equation until such things as tuning and plate cutting are needed. It also speeds up the install in the, always rushed, last few weeks.

Anyone at one of the former Crown Theatres can see the results of that.

It is understandable why consoles are so popular...there is no plot...it is what the exhibitors and probably most installers want. It just isn't the best way if performance is your goal.

To comment on Richard's column comment...yes, the European equivalent to the separates is the column where everything appends to the projector mechanism (or builds up from under it). I will say one of the flaws of the Column system with an unsupported/none precision adustable lamphouse is getting that lamphouse properly aligned....you loosen its mounts to move it up/down and then you screw up the pitch until you retighten to see where you are. We have a nifty device that will support the lamphouse and allow us to crank it up/down and then tighten it in place but without that one has a succession of approximations. I prefer adjustable lamptables on the pedestal, myself.

[ 01-09-2007, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-10-2007, 09:01 AM:

Steve, that is one hassle regarding the optical bench in the lamphouse in the Column set up on Kinoton. One of their European distribitors use their own version of the lamphouse in which the optical bench has X/Y/Z settings with great leeway and lock without tools.

Posted by Chris Erwin (Member # 176) on 01-10-2007, 10:01 AM:

In a D/I I wouldn't think of a console unless it was a second story booth.

I've seen many consoles angled "down" but not many "up". (consoles are largely children spawned of the multiplex)The consoles I've seen in D/I's have mostly been second story booths and they are setting about level. Look in the picture warehouse.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-10-2007, 01:22 PM:

I service a small drive-in in my area that they have a CFS 4000 console running a 4k bulb shooting through an XL .. and this unit replaced their old carbon arc systems a good number of years ago.

Being on the floor since the entire building is rather on the smallish side, I suggested to the owner to keep the booth floor more clean that it is now - like mop the concrete floor almost on a daily basis - due to the main exhaust fan sucking in so much dust (being the yard is just dirt and gravel) and getting that vertical mirror and the angled mirror coated of dust more than normal.

I also had to take my compressor out there, pull the panels off to chase out the dust very good and shoot out the exhaust stack as well.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-10-2007, 02:46 PM:

Also with a console many expensive components are grouped very closly togather and an electric malfunction (the type with flames) can damage far more equipement than with seperate base and racks

Posted by Justin West (Member # 920) on 01-10-2007, 06:37 PM:

I'm siding with the "anti"-console crowd, here, Barry (not that the posters dislike consoles) because I agree that component access, line of sight or angle concerns, besides cost are in the favor of the separates route. Especially if the guys building their drive-in are newcomers to the industry, better for them to see it all naked in front of them...so they can see and learn how it works...and what can go wrong. I'd bet you could assemble some quality used/rebuilt lamphouses/projectors/soundheads/pedestals/platters in no time... whee! Wish I were there! [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-10-2007, 06:46 PM:

I can live with either and have done an equal number of both. It is really all based on what the customer can afford anbd what he is wanting to achieve form a technical standpoint. Although I used to I never put audio gear in consoles any longer... there just is not enough room for todays typical system.

Gord,
Never had any flameout of any simgle component ever damage any other piece of gear in an "all in one" console system, even in the firey Kniesley consoles that never happened.

Mark

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 01-11-2007, 06:31 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Although I used to I never put audio gear in consoles any longer... there just is not enough room for todays typical system.

I've only ever run a pair of consoles a couple of times, and these had no sound equipment in them. Does it ever cause problems with noise pickup from power supplies, ignitors, etc? Obviously, you've got the advantage of a shorter cable run from soundhesd to processor, but against that you've got the close proximity of the pre-amps to possibly noisy power equipment.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-13-2007, 12:57 PM:

Stephen,

I never had any noise issues. Its just a matter of applying proper wiring and grounding techniques. In the States Cineplex Odeon did most of the 1980's installs with all in one consoles. Usually utilizing Super Highlites or X-90's with all the sound gear mounted in below. Today I still service many of those old systems and they have never been a problem noise in regards to audio... The biggest problem with them was the crappy Strong High Reactance rectifiers that devloped loose windings on the transformer cores and buzzed so loudly you couldn't stand to be in the same building with them... those rectifiers generally got replaced with switchers.

Mark