This is topic Simplex sounding like a sewing machine in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008495

---

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-04-2007, 06:50 AM:
 
I get a call from the A/V guy at the museum where I was supposed to show two films yesterday saying that their service tech came in to replace the gate shoe spring which had broken last month (I had to run a show last time I was there using rubber bands to hold the assembly against the film. Anyway, the museum's A/V chap who ran the two prints during the week said he wanted to warn me that the good news was that the errant spring had been replaced, but now the machine makes a VERY loud noise when film is running thru it. He was not exagerating.

These are Strong Simplex 35s.

Upon arriving in the booth I gently turned the motor over -- nothing unusual. I run the motor, same thing, quite as a mouse. Then I thread a junk trailer reel and with the film in the machine, the noise is so loud we had to talk in loud voices to be heard only a few feet away from teach other. I checked out everything -- the shoe assembly and spring seem unremarkable -- springs giving same amount of pressure as the shoe on the "good" machine. The clack-clack which is in time with the intermittent is definately coming from the intermittant area, so I check the sprocket holes on the film that just ran thru -- nothing. Nothing torn, nothing nicked, and to top it all off, the picture is rock-steady on the screen. I mean, the noise is so loud that instinctively you would think the picture would be jumping wildly on the screen -- not so. The closest I can explain the noise would be like if you were running estar base film and you lost the loop and the film was slamming thru the shoe assembly.

At first I didn't want to run the show at all, but the A/V tech had already run both prints and after thorough inspection, no damage was visable at all. So, I ran the show with that machine clacking away. The pessimst in me was sure that at any moment the intermittent was just going to seize up, but as I said, other than the noise, nothing. And the most bizzare thing is, that with no film in the gate, the thing purred like a kitten.

Anyone have any idea what this could be? Oh...yeah, I swapped the shoe assembly with the other projector. Same noise, so it's nothing to do with the shoe assembly itself. What is even more scarey is the service tech left (without fixing it) saying that it's just a spring he needs to install in the shoe, which definately it is not.

If anyone has run across such a problem, I'd like to hear the solution. Oh yah, the noise is definately coming from the working side of the machine and there was no unusual vibration that synced with the sound of the clacking when I put my finger on any part of the head.
 

---

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-04-2007, 07:57 AM:
 
Only with film?

Check tensions. Correct spring?

If swapping gates did not help; is the intermittent shoe/sprocket aligned?
 

---

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-04-2007, 09:08 AM:
 
To rule out anything else does it make the same noise with the trap shoe assembly open
and also with no film and closed
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-04-2007, 09:51 AM:
 
Check the lateral position of the shoe against the intermittent sprocket and be sure its not on upside down. An alignment issue could allow it to rub on one side of the sprocket teeth.

Mark
 

---

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-04-2007, 12:32 PM:
 
I tried pulling the opening the assembly as much as I could without allowing the film to disloge from the intermittent; all that did was change the pitch of the noise a bit but not significantly. With no film in the gate and with the motor runnnig, no noise at all -- it seems to run smoothly, normally. And the most telling thing to me is the fact that switching the assembly from the other machine caused the same noise when film was running. It will be interesting to see what the tech guy comes up with. And he has to come up with SOMETHING since the machine wasn't doing this BEFORE he had at it.
 

---

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-04-2007, 10:29 PM:
 
...?Intermittent assembly noise? Oil at proper level?

Have to ask this for I had a similar situation with a very noisy machine with film loaded and it turned out that there was no spray in the backside, thus assembly was actually working pretty hard.

Put oil in that thing and things quieted down very nicely.

Also, one thing that I forgot about is that trap stop allen screw which is on the inboard part of the gate that stops the trap at a certain place when closed. Screw goes in and trap is closing too hard on the film making the film run too tight in the gate .. and that causes quite the racket when operating.
 

---

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-05-2007, 09:00 AM:
 
Since the sound is constant when moving the gate in and out I don't think the problem is gate pressure related, or the stop screw.
Try running the projector without film and pressing on or grabbing the starwheel shaft collar to load the intermittent a bit. It's really odd that fixing the shoe would cause a problem elsewhere though. Strange one.
If you put your finger on the intermittent shoe while running is it rattling/moving/bouncing more than your "good" machine?
The Simplex movement was designed by a sewing machine guy I've been told... maybe it's just regressing?
 

---

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-05-2007, 09:56 AM:
 
Ah HA! -- the OIL! Not that I am certain this's it, but what a coincidence....yesterday I noticed a can of Simplex oil was on the work bench and a water bottle filled with what I just assumed was used oil; I just figured that while he was replacing my rubber bands with a spring, he got ambitious and changed the oil. Who would have considered that he might have drained the oil but not replaced it???

So in other words, if there was is oil splash, the intermittent might run smoothly sans film, but with film in the gate, that puts enough resistance on the mechanism to cause it to whack out that noise. And that would make sense because the noise is in time with the pulldown. DAMN. If that's what's the problem, this tech guy is going to have allot a splainin to do. Pisses me off I didn't think of checking that. But then again, you see a bottle of used oil, you just figure a tech wouldn't forget the refilling step of that process, eh?

I hope no damange was done running it like that for a bit under 2 hours -- two shows on 2000ft reels, so at least it got a chance to cool down between reels. It's a good thing the intermittent did seize during the run. I will tell their A/V guy to check the spray first thing.

Thanks guys.

PS Dave, I don't know that the Simplex was designed by a guy who designed a sewing machine, but I don't think it's just a coincidence that there was a Singer Sewing Machine Company as well as a Singer 16mm projector. When you think about it, the movement of a sewing machine and the claw pull-down intermittent of a 16mm projector....pretty much both are in the same ball park. I wonder which one came first.
 

---

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 02-05-2007, 10:17 AM:
 
Pulling history hairs.....Graflex was part of General Precision which had control of Singer and Simplex at one time. In the 1950's Century projector was controlled by an imdustrial syndicate that also made commercial sewing machine and other parts for the textile industry. Digital Cinema provider Barco makes inspection equipment for the textile industry.
 

---

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 02-05-2007, 02:14 PM:
 

quote: Dave Macaulay

---

The Simplex movement was designed by a sewing machine guy I've been told...

---

quote: Richard Fowler

---

Pulling history hairs.....Graflex was part of General Precision which had control of Singer and Simplex at one time.

---

Now to split those history hairs again..... It was during the time of the General Precision rule that the main X-L castings became much heavier and more consistant in manufacture.

Mark
 

---

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-05-2007, 04:06 PM:
 
Wan't Eden also one of the early simplex designers for the machine was reffered to as the edengraph at one point If memory serves
 

---

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 02-06-2007, 01:34 AM:
 
Frank
One of my Simplex 35's was doing exactly the same thing recently and the problem was the Lateral Guide rollers were out of adjustment(small grub screw loose) causing the film to have extra tension on it as it passed through the gate.
I thought the intermittent had itself it was so loud.
After the adjustment and cleaning the gate and trap it was back to "sewing machine noise".
So I feel any extra tension on the film in the gate area will cause this.
Cheers Ian
 

---

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 02-06-2007, 03:34 PM:
 

quote: Gordon McLeod

---

Wan't Eden also one of the early simplex designers for the machine was reffered to as the edengraph at one point If memory serves

---